How research agreements in G&K work?

[titantoma]

I searched in the forum but nfortunately I did not find anything. Could somebody tell me, how RA in G&K works? What the differences bewtween Vanilla?

 

[Browd]

Two main differences between vanilla and G&K RAs:

1. In G&K, you need a DOF to enter into an RA.

2. The vanilla median-tech mechanic has been replaced with a formula that provides a number of beakers at the end of the RA that depends on combined beakers the two RA partners have generated over the 30 turns of the RA. Generally speaking (and assuming roughly equal research levels), an RA should produce 6+ turns of research. Arithmetic is involved, so don't bother pressing me for more details -- others can weigh in if you need something more useful ... er, I mean, more definitive.

 

[MadDjinn]

a simple 'rule of thumb' is:

the output is a minimum 5 turns of research if you don't have the Porcelain Tower nor have the Scientific Revolution social Policy.

the maximum output is 10 turns of research if you have both PT/SR.

Compared to a GS bulb at 8 turns, RAs are generally less powerful than GSs unless you have both the PT and SR.

 

[titantoma]

a simple 'rule of thumb' is:

the output is a minimum 5 turns of research if you don't have the Porcelain Tower nor have the Scientific Revolution social Policy.

the maximum output is 10 turns of research if you have both PT/SR.

Compared to a GS bulb at 8 turns, RAs are generally less powerful than GSs unless you have both the PT and SR.

And another question for that: academies better or keep the GSs till the late game same in Vanilla?

But RAs now clear.

 

[MadDjinn]

And another question for that: academies better or keep the GSs till the late game same in Vanilla?

But RAs now clear.

Settle GSs for Academies early in the game, as it raises your beakers/turn (and therefore helps RAs) and then hold the GSs for the end after Scientific Theory (give or take).

 

[Teedman]

Thanks for the details on this - but there is something that still puzzles me. I have about 450 bpt in my current game. I signed RAs, and when they went off I was around rifleing. I had SR and the PT. I was expecting about 4500 from each RA (450 x 10). Instead, I got about half that from each of my RAs (5 total). Can anyone explain that? BTW, I never lost and DoF during the life of the RA. I am playing on Prince, quick speed.

 

[MadDjinn]

Thanks for the details on this - but there is something that still puzzles me. I have about 450 bpt in my current game. I signed RAs, and when they went off I was around rifleing. I had SR and the PT. I was expecting about 4500 from each RA (450 x 10). Instead, I got about half that from each of my RAs (5 total). Can anyone explain that? BTW, I never lost and DoF during the life of the RA. I am playing on Prince, quick speed.

you have to be at the 450 level consistently (or higher) across the whole time of the RA.

also, on quick speed, the RA length is shorter, so the 10x bpt rule of thumb doesn't quite work (I think it cuts down to maximum 8xbpt).

As well, getting the maximum out of the RA requires your partners to have an equal or better bpt to yours. If they have less bpt, then you get less.

 

[Teedman]

Thanks. I knew there had to be something I was missing. Just seems like at the moment in the current game I am playing, RAs seem to be a real waste. Might be better in the late game. I guess I will have to wait and see. Personally (at least so far) I preferred the vanalla RA system to the current one.

 

[joncnunn]

The Other use for Great Scientists besides waiting for the end of the game (after you've effectively already won it) :
Use to help a tech costing 8+ turns you really want now.
(Say Astronomy to open up Reanance era for Rationalism).

 

[Halcyan2]

Thanks for the details on this - but there is something that still puzzles me. I have about 450 bpt in my current game. I signed RAs, and when they went off I was around rifleing. I had SR and the PT. I was expecting about 4500 from each RA (450 x 10). Instead, I got about half that from each of my RAs (5 total). Can anyone explain that? BTW, I never lost and DoF during the life of the RA. I am playing on Prince, quick speed.

The main thing is that science output increases very irregularly. It is not a gradual function - there are sudden jumps. Oftentimes, the output in my past 5 turns of the RA is more than the combined output of the first 15-20 turns. So using my science output when the RA is going off will not provide the most accurate metric.

 

[Tabarnak]

Thanks. I knew there had to be something I was missing. Just seems like at the moment in the current game I am playing, RAs seem to be a real waste. Might be better in the late game. I guess I will have to wait and see. Personally (at least so far) I preferred the vanalla RA system to the current one.

Keep in mind that more you play high levels and sign with big empires more you will gain beakers. I personnally prefer late RAs they seem to have a bigger impact(more turns gained) probably because the AI(emperor or higher) is researching at a good rate.

Like Madjinn said you better get all bonuses but also maybe wait to sign with bigger empires too. Just saying.

 

[ense7en]

Unless the AI is actually outputting a lot of tech, RAs often do feel like a waste.

So the late game RAs with runaway AIs will obviously be quite nice, but the earlier ones i too question as frankly i usually have vital uses for that gold.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Unless the AI is actually outputting a lot of tech, RAs often do feel like a waste.

So the late game RAs with runaway AIs will obviously be quite nice, but the earlier ones i too question as frankly i usually have vital uses for that gold.

I agree. I completed 2 science games post patch and felt the same way. Now when there is less cash in play, I think it's better spend whatever you have on CS. Scholasticism will probably grant more beakers than early mid-game RA's. I don't think I will bother in the future before I have Scientific Revolution and PT. In late game they're more valuable.

 

[chazzycat]

Does anyone know...if you're having a hard time signing any DOF/RAs for whatever reason, and decide to downplay RAs and focus more on growing your cities, does it still make sense to settle early scientists?

Just finished a game last night where I won (science) on turn 260 with zero RAs. I'm wondering if I would have won faster if I had saved all my scientists from the beginning. I planted 4 academies pretty early.

 

[chazzycat]

second question...

above it says for RAs, the value is based on your BPT over that entire 30 turn period.

How does that work for GS? Is it just 8x your current BPT, or some average of a period of turns? I know before the patch you were supposed to wait 9 turns or something...is that still the case?

 

[ense7en]

second question...

above it says for RAs, the value is based on your BPT over that entire 30 turn period.

How does that work for GS? Is it just 8x your current BPT, or some average of a period of turns? I know before the patch you were supposed to wait 9 turns or something...is that still the case?

Yeah does bulbing a GS add to what the RA calculates?

 

[MadDjinn]

second question...

above it says for RAs, the value is based on your BPT over that entire 30 turn period.

How does that work for GS? Is it just 8x your current BPT, or some average of a period of turns? I know before the patch you were supposed to wait 9 turns or something...is that still the case?

yes, you still need to wait as it's the average over the past 8 turns.

Yeah does bulbing a GS add to what the RA calculates?

no it does not.

 

[The Pilgrim]

Just finished a game last night where I won (science) on turn 260 with zero RAs. I'm wondering if I would have won faster if I had saved all my scientists from the beginning. I planted 4 academies pretty early.

I had an OCC 267 finish with no less than 27! RA's. Which only proves how little use they have these days. I'm wondering about academies myself. Next time I play for science I'll try to ignore them as much as I can and see how this goes.

 

[joncnunn]

More things I discovered related to this:

In G&K, RA not available until Education; their available much earlier in vanilla.

The AI still demands you throw in extra gold if they are in a previous era.

In G&K, if you decline an AI offering to become a DOF; it gets removed as an option for X turns. So if you've been waiting for the AI to have sufficent gold to sign the RA before signing the DOF, it further delays it.

The PT is much later in the game in G&K; and its no longer Rationalism's base policy that benefits RA (its now a few policies later) and the functionality of the old HS has been moved to a new wonder (Leaning Tower of Pisa much later); so there's another massive nerf to them.

It appears appears a bit easier in G&K to keep the peace among mid-distance AIs if they don't found a religion (at least the ones that don't rush out and found cities to close the gap). (Due to embassy points and also the happily adopted your religion). Long-distance AIs are also slightly easier to keep at peace with (positive points for having no contested borders).

 

[ense7en]

Since RAs are based off BPT, getting an academy or four to boost your main science-producing city is better earlier on than RAs IMHO, so signing them earlier wouldn't be worth it anyway.

Once you've actually gotten BPT up via Universities + specialists they become more helpful.