How should an economy be structured?

Right to life fundamentally includes rights to food, shelter, and health care. You can't say people have a right to life without saying they equally have a right to food, shelter, and health care.
 
That "one tidbit" is the core of the problem, legally. Let's take things to their inevitable conclusion. The half a percent of the population of the US who currently own most of everything eventually own all of everything.

At that point if they say "well, you are guaranteed a "right to life," but no one said that you could use OUR land to grow YOUR food" then his position that "oh, no, being able to eat is just an outcome, not a right" becomes obviously untenable. The question, legally, is where is that line?
 
Right to life fundamentally includes rights to food, shelter, and health care. You can't say people have a right to life without saying they equally have a right to food, shelter, and health care.

Agreed...that's why putting two things up as 'choices' that are fundamentally the same and saying "pick one" doesn't seem to work...though I may have misunderstood the context you were working in.
 
And then you would still have obscene amounts of corporate wealth. And getting at that could very well be counterproductive. Just to go with an example I'm familiar with, it took SpaceX $2-10 billion dollars to become the leading innovator and most productive rocket company in history. At some point you actually do need massive wealth concentration because not all industries are equal - some are absurdly capital intensive.

And this one is risk intensive as well !

My understanding is that most innovation comes from first generation companies, driven by mostly one person, and often with a right setting, the right team and circumstances around that person.

Second generation owners (children) or new owners being bigger companies, have much lower risk appetite for investing in innovations.
 
Agreed...that's why putting two things up as 'choices' that are fundamentally the same and saying "pick one" doesn't seem to work...though I may have misunderstood the context you were working in.

Civvver's quotes said "rights to health care, shelter etc are ABSURD" and then like 1 sentence later "people have a right to life"

Which are two contradictory positions
 
Funds run by AI figure out the way to maximize returns in the long run is to cooperate with the other AI hedge funds to maximize the economy as a whole, rewarding correct methods of growing wealth.
 
Funds run by AI figure out the way to maximize returns in the long run is to cooperate with the other AI hedge funds to maximize the economy as a whole, rewarding correct methods of growing wealth.

Would that system transfer invest from a more social/humane company to one that has minimised cost at the expense of the employees (within law) ?
 
Only if the collective funds have another way of increasing the number and spending power of investors and consumers other than employment.
 
the protections have been slowly eroded over time, and have failed to adapt to the increases in technology and globalization that create for extremely concentrated wealth.

The increases in globalization (aka, few customs barriers and no cross-border capital controls) were purely a political choice. There was noting either necessary or inevitable about that.

But as automation comes it messes up that equation because now you can eliminate labor entirely and you can sell the goods overseas or for really expensive prices only to the well off. So eventually we'll have to address it, though for the time being there should be some sort of equilibrium.

The alleged "threat of automation" is being used in contemporary political discourse as a weapon against worker demands. Not content with having a reserve army of low-paid workers in other countries, especially ebcause those other countries where it was somewhat "safe to do business in" are having rising labour costs, the wealthy in the past few years have been seeding the idea that rising automation will create mass employment. This is a lie. Its purpose is to discourage workers from demanding higher wages. It is no accident that the ones making the most noise about this are a handful of billionaires and their pet journalists and economists.

The reality over the past few years is that people keep working long hours (often much longer hours) and products are getting crapified because of corner-cutting to decrease costs. Doing real stuff, providing good services, still requires training, time, human labour and will keep requiring it. We'll produce more in those tasks that are amenable to mass production, but we also keep consuming more. Productivity in advanced economies has actually stagnated or even decreases in some - check the statistics. Services are not easy to automate: you can build some complex software to do it, and in a few years you're having to replace the whole thing or produce separately systems to add new functionality. IT projects, which supposedly should be an example of rising automation and productivity, and more often that not failures or turn out to be delivered with huge cost overruns, limited functionality and very late.

But if you want to examine why wages have stagnated over the last 3-4 decades it's due to policy changes. One major one was in the early 90s when tax laws changed to disallow companies to deduct executive salaries over a million dollars. This led to work-arounds where executives were awarded stock options and other compensation instead. Now an executive is not necessarily paid for company performance, but instead is paid based on how much the stock goes up. This is an important distinction cus the stock price is not always related to a healthy company. It's often very short sight based on recent profits, thus suppressing costs which usually means suppressing labor costs/wages, becomes a huge priority for executives. In fact it's basically incentive. If I pay you less then my profits go up which raises the stock which nets me a gigantic bonus. In essence executives must pay employees less to make more money themselves.

Then in the 80s unions started disappearing. A lot of the protections for unions were done away with. Reagan dismantled the air transit unions when they went on strike which sent a huge message to the rest of the country. Free trade agreements undermined a lot of the manufacturing unions so they had to give in tons of concessions or face companies simply relocating and the government didn't bat an eye. They let all these companies screw over the labor or flee. There ought to be protections against that.

True. The executives became the higher caste or society, where before they were seen as employees now they see themselves (and managed to have a compliant media portray the as) heroes and "leaders".

But the rise of the managerial class has been long in the making. Big corporations do not have real owners controlling them, the stock is too spread and even the big stockholders often buy and sell opportunistically. They're not in it for the long term, and the managers have free rein so long as they produce dividends (not even profits...) in the short term. The only way to make managers become what they are supposed to be, employees of the corporation there to serve a greater good instead of themselves, is to place a big owner on top. But if that big owner is an individual you'll get people with over-sized political influence. Some kind of social control , democratic accountability, would be better.

Unfortunately a system where the state took over that job eventually developed its own privileged managerial class, they even coined a word (nomenklatura) for it. So it's not as simple as placing the state as owner. Perhaps we should turn again to cooperatives, or even to selecting the board members randomly from among all the workers of the corporation for relatively short, non renewable terms? That might place there someone who might know what is going on in the corporation and rein in the management. New styles of organization should be tested. If one goal is that permanent positions of privilege should be avoided, then selecting the overseers randomly and frequently might actually work.
 
Funds run by AI figure out the way to maximize returns in the long run is to cooperate with the other AI hedge funds to maximize the economy as a whole, rewarding correct methods of growing wealth.
I don't see how this is different in practice from human intelligence putatively figuring out the same thing.

But if it was different, the mere fact that it was different would be interesting in itself...
 
Less work?
 
Right to life fundamentally includes rights to food, shelter, and health care. You can't say people have a right to life without saying they equally have a right to food, shelter, and health care.
Why not?

The right to purchase these things I can give you. It does not follow that they should be available without cost.

J
 
Why not?

The right to purchase these things I can give you. It does not follow that they should be available without cost.

J

Then they have a right to purchase life, meaning a right to live in slavery. A right to be enslaved, is what that boils down to.
 
Then they have a right to purchase life, meaning a right to live in slavery. A right to be enslaved, is what that boils down to.
This falls under the "does not follow" in the previous post. Exchanging work for benefit is not slavery. That would be work without benefit.

This brings up a second question. Who has the right to take from one and give to another? Why?

J
 
In the 19th century, where you seem to be coming from, the producers of a product have the right to share it. Not the owners of the means of production, mind you, but the workers who produce products. Of course in that same century, the farmers were some of the ones most exploited.

And no, life is not a benefit, it's a right, which you concede. You don't have to work for your rights.
 
How do you square the right to life with the death penalty? (by which I mean "how does one")
 
Somewhere in the last couple generations the term 'rights' evolved from what a human was allowed to do, to what government owes that human.

I have the right to speak freely, but the government is not obliged to facilitate that right.

I have the right to seek medical care when and where I like, but the government (according to the US constitution) is not obliged or required to pay for that care.

A 'right' is not an automatic obligation of the government.

According to the US constitution, I have the right to keep and bare arms. Does the federal government owe me a rifle?

The government was not intended to be the citizen's provider. It is there to allow us to go out and provide for ourselves.
 
No one provides for themselves entirely. Did you pay to have the roads which take you to work each day constructed?
 
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