How to be religiously tolerant?

[MobBoss]

Civgeneral, I have seen you go back and forth so much on these threads I think you best served with getting some help with this type of issue outside of this forum.

I highly suggest you see a therapist/counselor or that you talk with someone in your church regarding these issues.

Your continued cycle of attempting to take a stand and then attempting to be acceptable when people dont like your stance is just a vicious cycle being repeated over and over.

And, being a baby christian, I highly suggest if you want to stay a christian, hang out with people who feel likewise, as opposed to a setting where you will be attacked for your faith repeatedly. You are just plainly not ready to face the types of arguments and attacks on your faith that this type of forum holds.

 

[HannibalBarka]

Civgeneral, I also have seen go back and forth so much on these threads, and I truly admire your ability to question your behaviour; it was about gays some topics ago, and it's about atheist today. You need to know that this is a great virtue, maybe the greatest one, as it means that you are always trying to find what you are doing wrong that may hurt other people, recognize it and try to change. I applaude you for that. And it is not a sign of weakness as some will tell you.
Now to answer your question, a question that I myself thought about actually. The best answer I found is this: "linking believing in anything with being good is a fallacy". I know, and you know that you can easily find a good person of a catholic faith, jewish, muslim, hindu, buddhist, shintoist, atheist, etc. And you also can easily find a true bas**** who claim to be catholic, jewish, muslim, hindu, buddhist, shintoist, atheist, etc. Gandhi was hindu, but the people who burnt muslim in indian train were. Mother Theresa was catholic, but some IRA terrorists memebers with child blood on their hands are; There are good people and bad people in every religious group and also among atheist.

 

[MobBoss]

You need to know that this is a great virtue, maybe the greatest one

Indecision or pliability are neither great virtues. Keeping to ones beliefs despite a storm of opposition is far more virtuous in my humble opinion.

 

[El_Machinae]

Recognizing that your opinion might be wrong is a great virtue, it allows one to modify their opinion towards the truth. Clapping your hands over your ears and yelling "la la la!" in order to not hear a counter argument is not a virtue

 

[anarres]

It is if you believe you have devine inspiration as the source of your beliefs.

 

[El_Machinae]

I feel that I do need to evangicalise and "impose" my faith onto non-believers.

The best way to do this is to appear (and be) moral, tolerant, and loving. Being happy (and progressive) is what a LOT of people seek. As well, finding the answers to the 'hard' questions will blunt a lot the attacks, and it will be easier to see them as trivial. One of the main critiques of religions is that (to the outside eye) the faithful do not seem to be moral people. Why would I give any credence to a religion that made people immoral? I wouldn't.

 

[kingjoshi]

The key to being tolerant of ideas you do not approve of is to see clearly that an idea and its followers are not the same thing . Once this has be achieved , then you can , with confidence , totally hate an idea with every fiber of your being , and still be tolerant of those who follow it .

Seconded!

CivGeneral, we are all wrong from time to time. We're all wrong in some ideas or another, we don't know which. We don't have complete control in what we believe. Clearly evidenced by your own conversions and questioning. What I thought was right yesterday, I might think is wrong today.

So for those people who you think are wrong, feel sorry for them. We all have much to learn from one another.

 

[Irish Caesar]

I have made a recent post in that thread clarifying on how I am in the wrong and how sorry I am for offending anyone but yet it has fallen uppon deaf ears

Why should you be sorry if you believe yourself to be right?

I'll second MobBoss, that you should talk to some people who will give you the "why?" part of your questions instead of the standard catechism answers.

What I find myself doing fairly often is typing a post, and reading it before I hit send. I won't send it if it isn't all that civil...maybe I'll try and re-type it. Maybe I'll pick another battle and walk away from that one.

I see no reason to be tolerant of something that you know to be horrid and wrong; just don't be so quick to shoot the messenger.

 

[MobBoss]

Recognizing that your opinion might be wrong is a great virtue, it allows one to modify their opinion towards the truth. Clapping your hands over your ears and yelling "la la la!" in order to not hear a counter argument is not a virtue

I agree EL_M, and that is a sword that cuts both ways. And I humbly submit that there are many here who do precisely that on all sides of issues.

However, I do think I have the ability to be open minded in regards to such things. I certainly dont see things the way I did when I was younger.

 

[MobBoss]

It is if you believe you have devine inspiration as the source of your beliefs.

I will meet your "divine inspiration" and raise you your "higher morality".

 

[MobBoss]

The best way to do this is to appear (and be) moral, tolerant, and loving. Being happy (and progressive) is what a LOT of people seek. As well, finding the answers to the 'hard' questions will blunt a lot the attacks, and it will be easier to see them as trivial. One of the main critiques of religions is that (to the outside eye) the faithful do not seem to be moral people. Why would I give any credence to a religion that made people immoral? I wouldn't.

You see, EL_M, this is where people get it all wrong. Christianity teaches us that no one is perfect (not even Perfection..sorry dude) and that we are all flawed beings.

Everyone, even the most davout christian, is expected to sin, most likely daily. Thus you see it as an outside observer, that those "hoidy-toidy" christians are "do as I say, not as I do" people, when that is not the case. The reality is, as flawed beings, christians are going to sin, but when they do, they are to repent, pick themselves up, dust themselves off and carry on, trying to improve themselves in the process.

 

[nonconformist]

I'll also throw in to stop taking things so personally.

People will say things you consider blasphemous or heretical. typing this out angrily does nothing, as I doubt they care.

 

[El_Machinae]

Mobboss: I get that - but it's more than that.

When a religion has a tenant that we deem to be immoral (following very good logic), it's tough to convince people that the religion is moral. At that point, the religion cannot be a moral guide for people who disagree with the morals. Maybe the religion can then use fear to sway people into belief, and then very quickly runs into the problem of proof.

A quick example would be Christian Science. One tenant of the faith is that God will intervene for people if He wants, so intervening on your own is immoral. To follow this faith, I would have to watch my child die while I refused antibiotics for his infection - praying the whole time.

To our common perception, it's not moral to allow your children to die, even to save your own soul. A truely loving person would be willing to damn themselves to save their children. So, the religion does not seem to be moral to the outside observer, and thus does not deserve to be followed.

However, if a religion preached self-sacrifice AND the follower practices self-sacrifice to everyone's benefit, it would be hard to dispute their faith and the benevolence of their faith.

Finally, when someone doesn't 'practice what they preach', I think "why should I believe what you say, when you clearly don't?"

 

[MobBoss]

I'll also throw in to stop taking things so personally.

People will say things you consider blasphemous or heretical. typing this out angrily does nothing, as I doubt they care.

I agree completely. Taking this one further - if you show to be vulnerable to such things there are people who will do it just to get under your skin as well.

 

[MattJek]

I dont try to impose my beliefs on others. If I meet an atheist in real life I just try not to associate myself with that person too much.

 

[SonicX]

There still are that many people today who distantiate themselves from agnostics/atheists ... I find that quite scary as religion is of absolutely zero importance here. We're not so much atheist as we're notgivingadamnists.

 

[MobBoss]

Mobboss: I get that - but it's more than that.

When a religion has a tenant that we deem to be immoral (following very good logic), it's tough to convince people that the religion is moral. At that point, the religion cannot be a moral guide for people who disagree with the morals. Maybe the religion can then use fear to sway people into belief, and then very quickly runs into the problem of proof.

Yes, but people have different morals. To you, drug addiction may be moral, or sexual immorality. To me, it wont be....thus our disagreement. And I disagree that religion has to use fear to sway belief. Personally, I offer my life as a testament to people to view. If people want what I have - happiness in my life, stability in my marriage, good kids not into sex or drugs and success in my career, then they should know that God is responsible for all that...not me.

A quick example would be Christian Science. One tenant of the faith is that God will intervene for people if He wants, so intervening on your own is immoral. To follow this faith, I would have to watch my child die while I refused antibiotics for his infection - praying the whole time.

Doesnt sound very scientific if you ask me. However, thats where people can decide on their own the morality of that issue. And yes, I agree with you, watching a child die like that would be immoral.

To our common perception, it's not moral to allow your children to die, even to save your own soul. A truely loving person would be willing to damn themselves to save their children.

Depends. One should not love anything more than one loves God....to include wife and kids.

So, the religion does not seem to be moral to the outside observer, and thus does not deserve to be followed.

I would use the term "sect" as opposed to religion. But I agree.

Finally, when someone doesn't 'practice what they preach', I think "why should I believe what you say, when you clearly don't?"

Thats a childs argument to parents - why should I listen to you when you did X as a kid? Reason you should listen: Experience. I agree, I would find it hard to listen to someone who is still struggling currently with an issue. But, I find that the voice of experience is often ignored by the young.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

CivGeneral, again I applaud you for your ability to at least try to bring your actions in line with your beliefs.

I learned a great deal about religious tolerance from being a Mormon missionary. It is a major tenet of our faith (and one I accept) that our religion is the most true on earth, really the only one with The Truth. And part of being a missionary was walking up to complete strangers and offering to tell them about our faith. If they wanted to listen, we would try to explain why our church was so correct. But - this is something that was repeatedly drilled into us, and that I saw the value of for myself - we were never to condemn what they believed as 'wrong'. In fact, I was always eager to learn about what others believed (or didn't).

I have found that, although religion should never be a source of division between people, talking about religion can be quite valuable. At the very least, it is something that is important to many people, but in different ways; so it helps us understand what it means to be human. It is interesting to find out how people come to believe what they do; of course I think that most of them have missed the complete truth, but I also believe that God would rather that one honestly and sincerely comes to part of the truth by themselves, than that they have all of the truth forced on them.

So, to be religiously tolerant doesn't have to mean never talking about religion; it just means realizing that those with different experiences may come to different conclusions than yours. I was always secure enough in my faith to not be threatened by those who saw differently from me (while always considering the possibility that they, not I, were right, or that neither of us were).

 

[PriestOfDiscord]

There still are that many people today who distantiate themselves from agnostics/atheists ... I find that quite scary as religion is of absolutely zero importance here. We're not so much atheist as we're notgivingadamnists.

I totally agree. I've always liked the term "Apathetic Atheist." I tend to think a higher power doesn't exist, but the fact is that I don't know - and more importantly - I don't really care. It doesn't affect my life at all. Why should it? If God does exist, and he really is vindictive enough to banish someone to (insert bad afterlife here) for not kissing his feet every second of the day, I really don't want to have anything to do with him/her/it anyway. In that scenario, the people in (insert good afterlife here) would all be people I can't stand here on Earth. No, if an all powerful being exists, I doubt he/she/it cares what one little ant colony in the universe does on its own time.

Now before you blast me for being blasphemous, ask yourself, why should you care what I think? I'm just some guy on the internet dismissing religion. Plenty of people like me exist. Will you go to (insert bad afterlife here) if you can't convert us? I doubt it, no religion I have heard of works like that. No, the price of admission to (insert good afterlife here) almost always is something like living a virtuous life that is an example to others. Don't preach to people about living a godly life because nobody cares about hollow words. Instead live a godly life, demonstrating to everyone watching how your values have made you successful and happy. That will impress people of all faiths, or lack of faith. You might even gain a convert or two.

 

[pboily]

OK, I'm having a tough time with MobBoss and PriestOfDiscord's avatar sameness. I read the last post thinking it was MobBoss and I choked on my drinking water. Uncanny.