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How to "reliably" found a religion on Deity without being last?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Dragonfabri, Nov 13, 2015.

  1. Dragonfabri

    Dragonfabri Chieftain

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    TL;DR: how much +:c5faith: should i need, and by which turn, to reliably (or to get as close as possible) get a religion first, second or third at max?
    I'm willing to reroll to get faith-generating tiles (stones, gold, whatever), but i'd like to know when the start is ideal to get the religion with the beliefs i want.

    TL;DR 2: Most reliable way to get Stonehenge? Can it be "reliably" built or are the chances too small in almost any scenario? If so, how many :c5production: or tiles are required to get it as safely as possible?


    I started to play on Deity, and i won my first game not too long ago with venice.
    Now i wanted to play other civs (either Persia or Byzantium), but with both of them i'd love to get a religion with the faith buildings (so either Pagoda + Mosques or +monasteries with Byzantium) to aid in going wide (or to get more golden age points with Persia).
    I do know a religion is not necessary to win, but i'd like to win at Deity with such a religion.
    So i ask to you on the TL;DRs if it's possible and, if so, what are the bare minimum requirements.
    One note: i'd like to know the MINIMUM requirements, so rather than suggesting rolling legendary starts, i'd prefer if you said "+X faith by X turn is the minimum to get a chance at being first/second" or "3 tiles that give 2 hammers each by turn X are enough to get Stonehenge before the AI in general"

    Thanks in advance, and sorry if it's been asked before, but i can't find specific answers anywhere.:D
     
  2. Sclb

    Sclb Emperor

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    1. Depends on how many AI went piety. It is possible to miss founding religion even with DF start.
    2. I wouldn't bother with SH.
     
  3. Dragonfabri

    Dragonfabri Chieftain

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    1) I know it depends on my opponents, but let's assume worst case scenarios (so huge maps, 2-3 peity AIs)
    2) Well, i would instead if it means to get a religion. Rather than asking "is it worthwhile" i'm asking "is it reliably enough doable"? Or is it like Great library, almost impossible to get unless free tech from ruin and legendary start?
     
  4. zxcvbob

    zxcvbob Emperor

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    I don't play Deity; I've tried a couple of times but I'm not ready for it. But I think I'd pick Ethiopia and open Piety to have a shot at it, or Egypt and try for Stonehenge (and Hagia Sophia.)
     
  5. Dragonfabri

    Dragonfabri Chieftain

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    I thank you for the suggestions, but i'd like to be able to found a good religion with Persia and Byzantium (so civs with no inner faith-generation bonuses).
    Otherwise i'd have just picked Spain and the one with nature pantheon to get it:lol:
     
  6. Lord Yanaek

    Lord Yanaek Emperor

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    1. worst case on huge map is probably more like 10-12 piety AIs. 2-3 piety AIs is minimum case on standard map :wallbash: If you want to get a religion you need one of the first pantheons (ideally the first) so you only need 10 :c5faith: (you probably won't do this unless you meet a Religion CS before anyone else, and even with the 8 :c5faith: from first contact and build order scout-scout-shrine i sometimes get pantheon at 25-30, which is wayyyyy too late - just take a culture or growth pantheon if this happens and forget religion). You need your pantheon to give you :c5faith: / turn on tiles you will work (DF if you have oasis/flood plains), tears of the gods if you settled on Gems and/or have gems in jungle (early on it's better than mines to keep growing while trying to get your religion). Stone Circles isn't even good because you need to get to masonry and build those quarries. You best bet would be to spot a :c5faith: Natural Wonder and settle a city nearby. And don't hope to be the first one to found with those civs, just hope you get to found at all (even with first pantheon being DF you can miss a religion totally). First religion is usually around T40 and all the Piety AIs will get their religion between T40 and T60.
    2. Don't bother with SH unless you can finish it by turn 30 which probably means finding Calendar in some ruin and stealing multiple workers to chop forests. And then even with T30 SH you will occasionally loose it to some crazy AI.
    Bottom line : don't start a Deity game with plans for religion. If the opportunity is there, go for it. If you play Byzantium on Deity, it basically means you choose a civ with no UA.
     
  7. miaasma

    miaasma Prince

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    it's very hard to get first pantheon; you generally need both a pottery ruin and 8 faith from a city state. since both of these things occur at the same time very rarely some piety civ is likely to get it before you in most cases

    first religion is another matter, and that almost entirely depends on your start
     
  8. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    Founding at Deity with some reliability is possible. Getting 1st or 2nd Religion though? Reliably? No, not at all. But I have to ask why that really matters?
     
  9. Lord Yanaek

    Lord Yanaek Emperor

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    Well, OP wanted to get the faith buildings and AIs tend to like them.
     
  10. Nigel_Tufnel2

    Nigel_Tufnel2 King

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    I've almost always been able to get 1st-3rd religion (with 1-2 faith buildings) on Deity and Immortal by going at least 2 into Piety. Your biggest competition will be the obvious folks like Ethiopia and Celts... You should easily found before the religious wonders after SH show up. It seems like people don't like playing Piety as it's bonuses are weak compared to the other early trees, but I think it is the most fun, and if you get the 25% gold boost in cities policy, whoo-ee!

    FWIW, I probably like Piety because I am so pious... :smug:
     
  11. Hammer Rabbi

    Hammer Rabbi Deity GOTM Staff

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    honestly, there isn't a 'reliable' way to get an early religion on Deity assuming standard settings. sure, there are ways but none are reliable, as in found early (top 3) with regularity. you can make things favorable but even then it always has a lot to do with luck of the map and opponents.

    on deity, the first religion usually founds in the 40s or 50s depending on the opponents (not including the rare foundings in the 30s--possible with Spain, Celts, maybe others), and usually minimum 3-4 pantheons already taken by then too. for actual reliability, you must have Desert Folklore in the first 20 turns (thru faith ruins or meeting CSs) and 5-6 floodplains that can immediately benefit from it. I think this is the only way to reliably found in the first 3 religions on Deity. The other faith-generating pantheons rely on a tile improvement to start generating fpt. Any other ways delay this and luck plays a much larger roll. But just playing for an early DF pantheon will require lots of rerolls for that desert heavy start.

    another 'reliable' method would be to try and get Hagia Sophia quickly for the top 3 religions. but I think that only can be done with Babylon or Egypt (for their UA) and still hinges on AI luck not founding the 3rd religions by turn 70-80. again, this is just speaking to reliably founding in the top 3 to guarantee those buildings.

    Im not really sure how to do this reliably with Persia or Byz. I dont think anyone can do it reliably without an early Desert Folklore though.
     
  12. Lord Yanaek

    Lord Yanaek Emperor

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    Not really.
    Dance of the Aurora is like DF for Tundra. It's bad because Tundra start is bad but doesn't need an improvement (but your cities won't grow much if you work Tundra)
    Tears of the Gods only requires Pearls or Gems. Gems in Jungle are great as they are 2:c5food:3:c5gold:2:c5faith: This can help you a lot. Unimproved Pearls only give you 1:c5food: so not that great.
    Religious Idols work on unimproved gold/silver. But those never show under jungle in my games so you really won't grow if you work hills, and only give you 1:c5faith:
    Goddess of Festival works on unimproved wine/incense. In the rare cases you can get wine on grassland 2:c5food:1:c5faith:1:c5culture: can help you (especially if this culture gets you in Piety or Liberty (for more cities and more shrines)
    Finally, Earth Mother gives 1:c5faith: on Salt, Copper and Iron. With Salt heavy start, and since Salt is sooooo good, it can also be good. You will mine and work that salt ASAP anyway.
     
  13. krc

    krc King

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    I fixed that for you by striking out the unnecessary words.
     
  14. Erneiz Hyde

    Erneiz Hyde Warlord

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    ^Uhm no, if you're struggling to found religion on lower difficulties the fault lies with you, not the civ

    Personally, I don't mind being last because most of the time the remainder beliefs that the AI never picks are decent enough for me: Tithe, +2 faith per wonder, and Hermitage bonus.
     
  15. Phukit

    Phukit Warlord

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    1. There is no reliable/semi-reliable way to do this a side from using a faith based Civ on a cooked map.

    2.You can get SH 100% of the time by conquering the civ that built it. beyond that you have a better chance of having a 3-way with Ellen Degeneres and Rosie O'donnell than hard building it yourself
     
  16. Acken

    Acken Deity

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    What screws the player the most for religion is that the shrine will need 5 more turns for every pantheon found before you and on Deity the AI starts with Pottery and makes a shrine very quickly. Since the pantheon is the most common way to generate faith you're fighting an uphill battle at that point. I'm not really sure what was the design philosophy when making pantheon act like that. The idea was probably to simulate the different time frames of religions but the comparison fails when in reality later religions are not weaker than older one (on the contrary). For the comparison to work you'd have to give a bonus for late founders to compensate for all the negatives:
    -less choices
    -not able to get benefits for as long
    -less time at cheap faith costs

    If I'm getting a 30+ pantheon cost I know I'm either going to have no religion or a weak one. Might as well save faith and just buy whatever stuff is offered by your neighbours religions. If they picked decent beliefs the only thing you'll miss is the founder belief (gold).

    That's why the best way to get a religion is play someone that has early faith, get religious CS or get a faith natural wonder.
     
  17. Primacide

    Primacide Settler

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    Check out adwcta 's thread "guide to going small" here on cfc. It is a religion focused strategy that is competitive on deity. It might suit the kind of game you're looking for and has many good suggestions for founding and spreading, as well as ftp and tech suggestions. Sorry that Stonehenge isn't happening on this level. I think you'd have to play on emperor or lower to reliably get SH.
     
  18. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    Thanks for that, clearly I did not read OP carefully enough!

    My first suggestion then would be to try the DCL archives. I have not played the Persia (#3) or Byzantium (#6) maps myself, but both are promising for founding, and are listed as being a little easier than average. Liberty is harder than Tradition, and you say you are new to Deity, so a known map should help with both of those.

    If I were setting this up for myself, most importantly I would hand-pick opponents so as to eliminate Ethiopia, Maya, Morocco, and Celts. Maybe just pick warmonger and commerce-oriented civs? That would let me be less picky about the starting dirt. Of secondary importance then, would be re-rolling until starting dirt was desert or tundra, since both take very little effort. For Byzantium, I would hold out for a costal start, and maybe pick “strategic balance” so as to guarantee horses for the early UU.
     
  19. Kriogen

    Kriogen Warlord

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    The most reliable way to found religion are city states or natural wonder.

    A couple of CS that become ally because you killed annoying barbarians or faith based NW.

    Shrine ain't so good as you need tech then build. AI can found religion before you do that. Panteon is also not that good. You need people to work tiles (that may or may not be good or what would be best).

    Let "others" do it for you(CS) or get super tiles (NW).

    Yes, its "map based". But so is desert folks for example. I mean if I reroll for DF I could just as well reroll for religious CS, right?
     
  20. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    To me, “reliable” means “less based on luck”.

    CS and NW are all luck, so not “reliable” at all, pretty much by definition. But maybe you just mean the way you are able to found in most games?

    Yes, starting dirt is luck based too, but that you can tell from T0. How many turns do you give it before giving up on CS quests or settling a NW? Then what if you had just tried three turns more?

    Shrine tech is super early (Pottery, same as what is needed for granary) and if it is third in your queue will get you a pantheon in probably four out of five random Deity games. So that is reliable. With a faith-based pantheon, you will found late most Deity games. So not good enough for OP, but quite reliable.

    The only real risk with a scout-scout-shrine BO is that sometimes an AI enhances before you get a pantheon. I hate that!

    More than the gold, I miss the easy CS quests. Especially since the first few GPr are so inexpensive.
     

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