How warm is your place?

[MaryKB]

When you're talking about a temperature scale to describe how humans feel about air temp, you have to consider feelings as part of your objective reasoning.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Well that's two different uses of the word "feel". How temperature "feels" is not the same as how one "feels" about a given temperature scale. But in either case it's still subjective. If you know what -5C feels like, and what 0C feels like, and what 21C feels like, etc, then those numbers mean something to you and aren't any less nice or more unpleasant than anything else.

You could easily argue that having a temperature system based around water makes perfect sense when discussing weather and the environment too, since water is typically involved there. Negative numbers imply a likelihood of snow/ice, whereas positive numbers don't. But I still wouldn't argue that that's an objective benefit as there's still a freezing point on the F scale, even if it isn't a "nice" round number like zero. So as long as you know what that is it still works just as well, objectively speaking.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Also neither C or F is technically the metric system, that would be Kelvin (they are both decimal systems though).

That's the SI system you're talking about. Metric uses celsius. Celsius is the same as Kelvin anyways with an offset zero.

There is an equivalent to Kelvin for the US system - it's called degrees Rankine. It used to be used in American scientific and industrial settings but has fallen out of use for the most part. I have some rocket engine design texts from the early 80's that use it but everything more recent uses Kelvin for temperature, even if the rest of the units are US customary. A frustration of American engineering is we have to be fluent in both systems as they get interchanged regularly from the first time we open our textbooks all the way out into the real world.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

That's the SI system you're talking about. Metric uses celsius. Celsius is the same as Kelvin anyways with an offset zero.

I did quickly look it up before I posted that, and Mr Wiki seems to say that "the metric system" is just another name for SI, which is why I said that. If that's not the case then I'm not sure what it really is. A lot of people seem to use it to just mean "decimal".

 

[Broken_Erika]

I did quickly look it up before I posted that, and Mr Wiki seems to say that "the metric system" is just another name for SI, which is why I said that. If that's not the case then I'm not sure what it really is. A lot of people seem to use it to just mean "decimal".

Not exactly.....

The seven SI base units
Symbol Name Quantity
s second time
m metre length
kg kilogram mass
A ampere electric current
K kelvin temperature
mol mole amount of substance
cd candela luminous intensity

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SI_base_unit

 

[Manfred Belheim]

No I know what SI units are...

 

[MaryKB]

C's the same as K, just adjusted for water instead of absolute zero.

Going back a moment though ... when you're talking about something used to describe feeling, I still feel very strongly that how well your system accurately gauges human feeling is definitely an objective criterion?

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I did quickly look it up before I posted that, and Mr Wiki seems to say that "the metric system" is just another name for SI, which is why I said that. If that's not the case then I'm not sure what it really is. A lot of people seem to use it to just mean "decimal".

There are a few other differences between metric and SI related to default base units. Metric makes a point of trying to use human-sized base units while SI doesn't care. Metric is also loosely defined in that countries will throw in a subset of their own customary units under that umbrella, while SI is rigid and well-defined as a measurement set.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

C's the same as K, just adjusted for water instead of absolute zero.

Going back a moment though ... when you're talking about something used to describe feeling, I still feel very strongly that how well your system accurately gauges human feeling is definitely an objective criterion?

Yes I know what C and K are as well... I meant I wasn't sure exactly what "the metric system" was, and Mr Wiki seemed to state it's just the old name for the SI system, hence me saying that Kelvin is actually the metric unit, not Celcius (or Centigrade, but that's a whole other kettle of fish...). If I'm wrong about that then fair enough, but I'm not confused about what C, K or SI are.

Yes, how well your system accurately gauges human feeling may well be objective*, but in this case both systems are exactly as accurate as each other, since they're exactly the same thing just with a different scale. In both cases you're equating a feeling with a number on a scale. There's nothing that's more or less accurate about either scale, so there's nothing (as far as I can see) that makes either objectively better than the other. It's just a matter of personal preference, which isn't objective.



* even though the human feeling is subjective itself of course, but you could presumably objectively define an average/typical response.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

You also get 1.8 degrees of C for every one degree of F, so like @emzie said it's much more precise (decimals = fail)

You actually got it switched up. For +1 C you get about +1.8 F, which is decimals. So C is much more accurate. (Sorry to be rude, but your post really called for it )

Next you'll say for every 1 foot you will get 30.48cm, which is in decimals. Therefore feet are more accurate. It simply doesn't work like that. The one you use as frame of reference will always not have decimals, the other one will always have decimals.

With C you only go up to about 35, and you've got to use negatives before you feel really cold. Weird!

Personally I question everyone who says they don't feel cold at 32F (0C). That IS cold!

You can sort of think about this, at 0 F you're freezing your fingers off, and at 100 F you're at risk of heat stroke. You get a good spectrum of temperatures you're likely to feel in a good scale range. With C you only go up to about 35, and you've got to use negatives before you feel really cold. Weird!

You can sort of think about this: at 0c it's actually the precise point where water freezes. At 100 c it's also the precise point where water boils. Seems to have much more.. Real world implication. Not laboratory. In Fahrenheit, water freezes at 32 and boils at 212, which seems pretty dang arbitrary.

It's just a matter of personal preference, which isn't objective.

In the end I agree with this, both systems are completely arbitrary and any kind of preference is subjective. Though I do think it is incredibly useful to have something like the freezing/boiling point of water as a frame of reference, instead of, for example, the average length of one british foot. I see how that could have been useful at some point, but.. Nah, actually.

 

[MaryKB]

You actually got it switched up. For +1 C you get about +1.8 F, which is decimals. So C is much more accurate. (Sorry to be rude, but your post really called for it )

Oh you're mistaking me sweetie, or maybe my wording was confusing?

If you go from say 10C to 11C, that's going from 50F to 51.8F. But it's more important looking at it the other way around We humans can feel even slight changes in temperature, and when you go from say 59F to 60F, that's only about 0.56 C change.

50F to 60F feels dramatically different, but with C you've only got about 5.56 points to show that. With F, you have 10 numbers to use between, but with C you don't even have 6, and to get as precise as F you need to use decimals, which is fail.

You don't interact with water constantly, but you do with air: and that's why for human experience, you're better off using a scale based around air temperatures. You don't need a water-based scale for anything practical (when's the last time you needed a thermometer to tell you if your water is freezing or boiling?) You mostly use a thermometer to give you an idea of how comfortable the air is going to be

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Oh you're mistaking me sweetie, or maybe my wording was confusing?

Nah, I think you mistook me, actually

Your point about Fahrenheit being able to reference a wider degree of Temperatures I actually never disagreed with, I just think the idea of decimals being weird or hard to use doesn't really apply. Also, with F you also do go into decimals, just slightly less often (not even half as much, actually). So you have whole numbers slightly more often when referencing outside temperature, that's a very minor advantage to me at best.

So while I think you do make a great point about F being better to express air temperature and having a broader spectrum, and relating better to human experience of air temp, (and these I actually agree with you are the prime advantages of F over C) I think the point about decimals just falls flat.

You don't interact with water constantly, but you do with air: and that's why for human experience, you're better off using a scale based around air temperatures. You don't need a water-based scale for anything practical (when's the last time you needed a thermometer to tell you if your water is freezing or boiling?

Depends on what you do, I guess. Maybe for you F is important because you're often adjusting heating/AC. I don't, really. Maybe metereologists of all kinds also prefer F?

For me, C is much more important because of cooking and everything related. While everyone can tell exactly when water turns into ice by pure eye, knowing, for example, how close your water is to a steady boil or a roiling boil is super important when you're, say, poaching an egg. Or blanching vegetables. And with the eye it's really damn hard to tell whether you're looking at 70c water or 85c water.

 

[MaryKB]

I disagree with you very much on your cooking points ... do you really use a thermometer when you're poaching eggs? I've never done so, and I've never had a problem with it. You're either watching your water or watching your thermometer, and I don't agree you get a benefit from the latter.

I use a candy thermometer when I'm doing certain things, like making fudge, because you have to be absolutely precise. But here's where F even works better for that, because it's easier to see where you are. And whether you're at 238F or 115C doesn't really matter, because you're just looking at numbers on a stick anyway.

I mostly use temperature for deciding what I should wear when I go outside.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

I disagree with you very much on your cooking points ... do you really use a thermometer when you're poaching eggs?

home cooking is a different thing, I mostly just do my preparations and measurements then wing it. but when talking about professional, or big-scale cooking.. yeah, I do time, weigh, measure absolutely everything. I don't just need to know the temp that my water is at, but I need to know the exact time until it reaches boiling point so I can plan things out in advance and tell the rest of the kitchen what to do, when.

another really good example would be homemade ice cream, where you really don't want to leave it in the fridge for too long, but also need to reach a certain temp before you have the right texture.

many dishes you can take your time with, some are decided in matters of seconds. I echo your candy thermometer, I have one of those, too, and use it for everything from fried chicken to roast to cakes and pastries.

I also have a microscale and an infrared-thermometer. It's become an obsession

 

[MaryKB]

I guess I never realized you're a professional chef! That's so interesting and amazing! Do you really enjoy running a kitchen? I'd imagine that's exciting, but I think I'd feel incredibly stressed in your place.

But your situation is unique, I'm talking about everyday use. I even mentioned I feel there are places where C is more useful.

 

[elmurcis]

Decimals are fun! I always check if its 6,4C or -1,7C! (and I have thermometer with F too. So used to that scale too and can see that point of view).
Btw - if sweeter match eye color, it really is mesmerizing!!

 

[yung.carl.jung]

I guess I never realized you're a professional chef! That's so interesting and amazing! Do you really enjoy running a kitchen? I'd imagine that's exciting, but I think I'd feel incredibly stressed in your place.

But your situation is unique, I'm talking about everyday use. I even mentioned I feel there are places where C is more useful.

And I would actually agree with you that F is also more useful in some kitchen situations, for example reading interior temperatures of fudge.. or meat! Or checking air temperature in order to maximize yeast activity. I can think of many things related to baking, actually.

Yeah, I worked in hotel kitchens and big gastro (tm) for two years, mostly washing dishes, waiting, doing prep. Then I got into a more "upscale" mexican restaurant and in a matter of a few weeks went from washing dishes to waiting to helping in the kitchen to running the kitchen when my boss wasn't there. To be fair, almost all of the other employees were pretty capable as well, so working in tandem was never an issue. Neither was issuing or taking orders. It was a small restaurant with ~40 seats, but only a single waiter and only 2 cooks, so there were basically no breaks and very little downtime. The job wasn't that stressful after getting used to it, but it was definitely full of hazards. I burnt myself every day, no exaggeration. We used our bare hands to flip the large tortillas on a 284F contact grill. Every time you lift them a little too slow a cloud of 212F steam would burn your hand. Every time you accidentally touched the grill you'd get a blister. I never went to culinary school so I am extra thankful for having that opportunity to run a kitchen. Me and my boss are still on great terms, I came by just a few weeks ago and he had me eat & drink entirely for free. It was like a second family. I stayed there for two years even though the pay was minimum wage, that's how much I liked the job. Only reason I gave up the job was becaused I moved out of town, otherwise I would still be happily flipping tortillas

 

[MaryKB]

I think that's a really wonderful story, and it's so amazing you got to have such an experience!

And thank you so much for really thinking about my perspective, I'm so used to just being told (by most people) that I'm wrong

 

[yung.carl.jung]

we can both be wrong together

 

[Arwon]

I was talking about it earlier, it has to do with how air temperature affects humans. The big thing is that average temperatures you're likely to regularly experience come from about 0 F (freezing cold) to 100 F (super hot); which translates to about -18 C and 35 F, and it just doesn't have that same impact, you know? At 0 C you're a little cold and at 100 F you're long dead, lol.

Like compare a little of temperature ranges

0F to 10F ~~ freezing your tushy off, beware going outside ~~ -18C to -12C
10F to 20F ~~ extreme cold, watch for fast frostbite ~~ -12C to -7C
20F to 30F ~~ really cold, bundle up! ~~ -7C to -1C
30F to 40F ~~ mostly cold, you're going to need a heavy coat ~~ -1C to 4C
40F to 50F ~~ chilly, jacket, hat, and/or sweater weather ~~ 4C to 10C
50F to 60F ~~ bit cool, probably need a sweater ~~ 10C to 16C
60F to 70F ~~ pretty comfortable, you can probably dress however you want ~~ 16C to 21C
70F to 80F ~~ extremely pleasant, great for activity without overstressing ~~ 21C to 27C
80F to 90F ~~ quite hot, excellent weather for swimming ~~ 27C to 32C
90F to 100F ~~ roasting, you'll need to work hard to keep cool ~~ 32C to 38C

So like if it's 35F in the morning, you know it's rather cold, and if the forecast says 55F and sunny by afternoon, it's a really huge jump, right? But that same in C is going to be 2 going up to 13, it just doesn't have that same impact (20 degree jump versus 11) 0 just feels deathly cold, and 100 just feels unbearably hot, and that scale just is much nicer to look at and relate to.

Doing a quick google search, here's an opinion piece that talks about it: http://thevane.gawker.com/fahrenheit-is-a-better-temperature-scale-than-celsius-1691707793

I can assure you that Australians understand what Celsius temperatures mean exactly as well and as intuitively as you understand Fahrenheit.

We also need to understand what 40 or 45 degrees Celsius means! Stopping at 38C is nonsensical, that's just a common very hot day (36 is forecast today here, which is pretty bad for the fires but not likely to crash infrastructure or kill people), and there's no reason to think "100F" is a particularly significant threshold.

And only in Canberra does temperature below 0C ever really come into play and only then, in the single digit negatives. So no, 0 to 100F doesn't really capture Australian experience.