Huge Maps and Specialist Farms

[Spoonwood]

I've found that Scratcher submitted a Huge Demigod Spaceship game, where the final save has tightly packed scientist specialist farms.

As Russia he has 342 cities, while Babylon has 52 cities, Korea 21, Sumeria 26, the Byzantines 42, and Greece 18. That's 501 cities total, so it's close to the 512 hard coded city limit. Scratcher did not build any wonders until the industrial era.

40% research would suffice for 4 turn research on recycling.

50% research would suffice for 4 turn research on Smart Weapons (who knows if it already has beakers invested into it... the save has Smart Weapons selected as research).

70% science would suffice for 4 turn research on Stealth.

80% science would suffice for 4 turn research on Genetics.

I don't remember how later tech costs compares to earlier in the modern era. I don't know if this would scale up to Deity, but it does suggest to me that specialist farms on huge maps might get to 4 turn research easily enough with specialist farms (I know such can get achieved on Huge Sid with no science buildings, but having hospitals, markets, aqueducts, harbors and a cultural expansion if needed, but that sort of infrastructure takes time to get up, which either requires large amounts of gold or civil engineers... who aren't researching).

This does suggest to me that specialist farms, even on Huge maps where the hard coded city limit can come into play resulting in a "too many cities" message, can work. Perhaps... outside of the core... they still end up more powerful for finish date than fewer cities putting up infrastructure.

Anyone have anything to add?

 

[BlackBetsy]

It an optimized specialist city, you would have 3 scientists out of 6 citizens, generating 10 total beakers per turn. I am assuming you aren't building an aqueduct as you are just taking squares from other cities at pop 7-12. That is 1,000 beakers per turn per 100 specialist cities. If you have a core of 30 cities (OCN is about that for higher levels), you should be generating 2000+ beakers per turn if not more from the core at 100% research (in my Monarch SS 1415 game, my top 3 cities totaled 630 beakers per turn at 100%, then then next 30 or so averaged about 45). So 200 specialist cities = 2,000 beakers + core research of 2000 and you've got 4000, which is not enough for 4 turn Robotics, but close. At 330 cities, with 300 optimized specialist cities, you've got 5000 per turn and everything is 4 turns easily.

The problem is getting 250+ cities. War is an option but you still have to ICS the conquered territory with built settlers.

I think the question is what is the pace of city settling and how many workers you need. I think if I needed any guidance on my game, it would be: (1) how many settlers should I be building per per 10 cities. Is it 2? 4? (2) to settle like that, you are going to war. War means units, war weariness, etc. How and when do you go to war?; (3) how many workers do I need?

More than anything, I would want to get right - (a) what is the number of cities I need @ 1000 BC to be successful; (b) if its 20 cities, how many are building settlers, how many are building units; (c) how many are building workers.

 

[Spoonwood]

It an optimized specialist city, you would have 3 scientists out of 6 citizens, generating 10 total beakers per turn. I am assuming you aren't building an aqueduct as you are just taking squares from other cities at pop 7-12.

Yes, no aqueducts. They take too long, even as agricultural. And agricultural is a huge benefit for ICS science farms.

The problem is getting 250+ cities. War is an option but you still have to ICS the conquered territory with built settlers.

The difficult part is getting them started. Basically some core or semi-core cities will put out settlers so specialist farms get started. Then, at one shield per turn, specialist farms will produce settlers every 30 turns (or workers... or artillery type units if chopping forests faster than growth). But, if you have a good patch of them started, you can start getting a settler every other turn or every turn or faster. In the Large Emperor Spaceship game I had two settler stacks, one of 38 settlers, and one of 30 settlers ready to go for more cities. It takes time to get them started, but once they do, they can basically snowball.

how many workers do I need?

From what I've seen of your saves, you need more for sure. I haven't seen your latest saves yet though I forward to seeing them.

More than anything, I would want to get right - (a) what is the number of cities I need @ 1000 BC to be successful; (b) if its 20 cities, how many are building settlers, how many are building units; (c) how many are building workers.

It's almost all workers and settlers, and granaries for me until I've reached near the point where expansion by war will become necessary. Also, courthouses in more corrupt areas that may benefit enough from them. Then it's infrastructure... libraries, markets, universities, and courthouses. Then it's a few artillery type units ... I had tundra cities in the Large Emperor game that helped with that so my core cities didn't have to make any like usual, then it's barracks and fighting units. The Large Emperor game had ICS spaced cities making settlers/artillery type units before any war.

I tend to push the farmer's gambit idea as far as I can, and sometimes experience attacks I'm not prepared for as a result. I had that happen in the Huge Diplomatic game, but it was only one AI who was far away and I used military alliances to have AIs fight them, so losing one city and retaking it soon after wasn't an issue.

 

[BlackBetsy]

Also, courthouses in more corrupt areas that may benefit enough from them

I haven't seen what the math is on the benefit of a courthouse and how to know whether it in fact will provide more shields or more beakers or more tax revenue. I tend to build them in not totally corrupt cities but let's say just outside the OCN. This math is relatively impenetrable....what I need is a rule of thumb. If max corruption/waste with a courthouse is 80%, I guess courthouses are worth 1 shield at 10 shields, and then 2 shields at 11 shields. But under max corruption, I don't know what rules of thumb to apply. It seems like courthouses tend to net me 1 shield every time I build them.

 

[Spoonwood]

I see you had 33 workers for the final save of the Huge Emperor Diplomatic game. I have 180 workers for the Sumerian Huge Emperor Diplomatic. Having a large workforce I do think very much pays off research wise if making ICS specialist farms. Even corrupt cities can get an extra beaker sometimes just by roads, since the 12th commerce ends up uncorrupted. Like this city of Edo:

Thinking about it more and finding a good example, EVERY size 5 city in a Republic with all tiles roaded will make at least 12 commerce. 10 from tiles, and 2 more from the city center. A good example is Kuara:

Those both come from the game where I wasn't used ICS spaced specialist farms.

In your Huge Emperor Spaceship submission I also see only 35 workers. And it doesn't take me long at all to find unroaded tiles getting worked:

And that's a core city... not some highly corrupt area. O. K., the factory is a joke there also, in hindsight. We've all done that for sure. Built or planned factories that ended up useless. Though, having them might prevent needing to change another build.

If max corruption/waste with a courthouse is 80%, I guess courthouses are worth 1 shield at 10 shields, and then 2 shields at 11 shields. But under max corruption, I don't know what rules of thumb to apply. It seems like courthouses tend to net me 1 shield every time I build them.

I think I heard Suede say that they reduce corruption by about 10%. I don't have a good rule of thumb. I think the build time on them comes as what matters most. If it takes 80 turns to build a courthouse, forget it. Put out settlers or workers instead. 40 turns sounds a bit much also for a courthouse. Maybe a city needs to be able to make at least 3 uncorrputed shields for a courthouse to become worth it, I don't know.

 

[Spoonwood]

And for the above about 162, jungle is uncleared grassland. If you can manage to trade for sanitation, every extra grassland tile makes for a fair amount of science production once hospitals get built.

O. K., since this a thread on specialist farms, may as well put in a screenshot of one... from Scratcher's save:

Here's another one, which I'm fairly sure just built a settler:

What I've done lately comes as to zoom to a city when it produced a settler. If it produces 2 surplus food per turn, and we don't have The Pyramids, it will still take 1 turn to grow back to size 5, and then 10 more to grow to size 6, and 9 more to get it's box almost full. So, it doesn't need to use all tiles in the interim period. Instead, it perhaps can use some specialists while growing back to size 6 after producing a settler. Hence, I zoom to the city and see if it can use some scientists and still get enough growth to get back the settler's cost. It's a fairly simple process, and somewhat quick.

 

[BlackBetsy]

162 (63nd city built) in the Huge Emperor Spaceship game is a bit of an aberration. It's founded in 940 AD. Note that it is just north and east of Dyrrachium, which is a Byzantine city that flipped to me later in the game so it was Byzantine territory before that. We were at war with the Byzantines quite often and that land was often a place where the Byz were marching troops or I was fortifying units. As I mentioned in the writeup, I think one of the limiting factors of that game was that the region North and East of my capital was all jungle and marsh. I burned a lot of worker turns clearing the marsh/jungle and, to be honest, there is an argument for dumping the game and re-rolling when you see vast marshlands/jungle near your core. I've had that issue before. I struggle about going to war in science games because (a) I don't want to have military alliances that create the need for war weariness or killing trade reputation if you end them early; (b) if I don't sign alliances, I wind up having the world against me. I guess the answer to that is "don't lose units or cities" but easier said than done. In the Emperor game, I burned my gpt trade reputation because I had to sue for peace with the Babylonians as they dumped a huge force on my western border that I wasn't in position to repel.

I don't know how many slaves I had in that game. In both games, I fought only limited wars and you can see the city count is in the 120 range, as was in my Huge Monarch SS game.

My limiting factor on workers is usually the unit support costs in a Republic. I dump the military police ASAP, but its usually the workers driving the cost and limiting my ability to use the science slider. I really do need some heuristics to drive my setter/worker growth because obviously every time you settle a city, the gpt goes up 2 (1 more unit support enabled, 1 fewer unit supported).

 

[BlackBetsy]

the factory is a joke there also, in hindsight.

I'd be interested in hearing when you think a factory is right versus when it's not. I think a factory works in the inner core of 10-12 cities where you can get something like 40 shields per turn with a factory.

I note that what you see in 162 is an end of game save where generally I didn't care about what was built because it would never finish.

 

[Spoonwood]

I burned a lot of worker turns clearing the marsh/jungle and, to be honest, there is an argument for dumping the game and re-rolling when you see vast marshlands/jungle near your core.

I understand what you're saying about marsh/jungle in terms of speed. However, I tend to like the marsh/jungle starts. The Huge Demigod Domination I especially liked how much there was. It feels good to improve all that land.

My limiting factor on workers is usually the unit support costs in a Republic.

My workers get supported by selling technologies for gold per turn. MapStat helps to know when to trade.

I'd be interested in hearing when you think a factory is right versus when it's not. I think a factory works in the inner core of 10-12 cities where you can get something like 40 shields per turn with a factory.

I didn't build any in either of my Sid histographic games for most, if not my entire war phase. If you have enough cash to continually upgrade units and disconnecting iron and saltpeter to make horsemen instead of more turn expensive cavlary, or can buy armies, factories are not as cost effective as upgrading. VMXA has pointed out that they cost a lot at a time when cavalry generally come as effective, or might if some AI doesn't have Nationalism... especially if that AI doesn't have saltpeter. That said, I did build factories in the recent emperor games. The main idea lay in building them more so for getting hosptials in quicker, or in coastal cities as prebuilds on hospitals or commercial docks. I also wasn't disconnecting iron and saltpeter and then upupgrading units. Once tiles got railed, factories + the free hydro plants from Hoover's did produce a fair number of cities that could make 2 turn cavalry, some that could produce 2 turn infantry, and some even could produce 2 turn tanks at size 12.

So, yea, if you can get 40 shields per turn, a factory is probably worth it. But, that's not easy to predict I think due to corruption. If it's Deity, and I think Demigod also, factories also might help get hospitals in sooner. With hospitals all tiles can get irrigated for specialists, which is simpler than war. And the standard Deity space entries by me, had no war as I recall... just all irrigated tiles in cities with hospitals (it seemed complicated, and I wasn't ready to war at Deity in the first submission, and in the 2nd, I couldn't seem to figure out how to do it while expecting research to maintain it's pace).

If you're in the middle of a war that you're not sure about, don't build the factories. If you're out of war and someone doesn't have Nationalism, but lacks saltpeter, don't build any factories yet, except for building wonders. Any city building wonders, can use a factory and probably a coal plant both cash rushed from workers. The coal plant can get sold after Hoover's gets built.

Let's say a city makes 10 shields per turn at size 12 without any rails. The factory + hydro plant would bump it 20 shields. Except, the rails will give it 12 more, unless some are forested, minus corruption. So, maybe the rails give us 8 more shields? That's 18 base, for 36 total with a factory and Hoover's Dam, I think. 18 shields per turn is 5 turn cavalry, while 36 is 3 turn cavalry. But, it took 20-24 turns maybe for the factory to get built? Unless you had a golden age going on... hence my comment elsewhere about an industrial age golden age (Universal Suffrage is an agricultural wonder, I think) to build factories. 20-24 turns for a factory requires 10-12 cavalry to make up the deficit. It might just be better to go with cavalry. Though, if you are waiting on Replacable Parts from AIs, then the factory seems worth it. But, if you can fight pikes, forgot the factory and get to war with cavalry. If you can fight muskets, probably forget the factory. Cavalry charges at rifleman gets iffy for sure, but they can retreat. So, a 10 shield pre-rails city can probably still forgot the factory and do better for a bit. But once facing infantry, you need artillery, and I prefer cities without barracks to build artillery type units. So if facing infantry or anticipating such, I say, when in doubt about a city, build the factory.

If you need to war with tanks and modern armor, I think you'll have wanted to have the factory. If you handbuild research labs, which only cost 100 shields a factory will help... prebuilding them with tanks or whatever can easily be quicker than putting in the The Internet. So, if playing for space, when I doubt about a city, I say build the factory! It's a prebuild on anything else... commercial dock or hospital or a quicker finish time on hospitals, and a plan to get your research labs in more quickly once you reach the modern era. If playing for diplomatic, that's when it becomes more questionable.

But again, if some AI doesn't have Nationalism, and doesn't have saltpeter, and is conveniently located, 100% forget the factory *for now*. Cavalry vs. pikes can be easy even on Sid. You might just have to worry about knights, and it's good target practice. If they have saltpeter, but lack Nationalism, muskets still end up favored, but leaving the factory to later might just be better. If you can conquer some AI or two (and you have universities up), then you can get specialist farms up. If they have rifles? I don't know.

That all said, I think you have a good question. It might even be interesting to have screenshots of cities and ask the forums in general "can this city use a factory?". Because that's not always clear for sure, and a complex question.

Also, a Huge map maxes out at 15 opponents, I think. So, there's probably plenty non-scientific AIs possibly around, who were good to pick up the ancient age research for AIs in my opinion, but don't help pick up research later.

Do you need a military alliance if you have cavalry and they have pikes? If you conquer a city or two every time from some AI, you take whatever gold they had. And if they had none when they started the war, can that AI afford a military alliance against your empire?

 

[BlackBetsy]

I understand what you're saying about marsh/jungle in terms of speed. However, I tend to like the marsh/jungle starts. The Huge Demigod Domination I especially liked how much there was. It feels good to improve all that land.

I mean, for what it takes to clear a jungle (16 turns for native worker, right?), you get 5 roads on grassland/plains or 2 fully irrigated / roaded tiles plus 2 turns towards a 3rd road..... Jungles are such worker action sucks.

Marsh is even worse because you can't settle on it for a free road / chop.

Do you need a military alliance if you have cavalry and they have pikes? If you conquer a city or two every time from some AI, you take whatever gold they had. And if they had none when they started the war, can that AI afford a military alliance against your empire

At that point of the game, it was Knights vs. musketeers on defense, so it was a much closer run thing. You can see they grabbed a city and I never got it back (even though I tried to culture border it into a flip). With all the workers I had, it was close on support costs so I wasn't heavily defended against a VERY long front. A pretty large stack showed up that I couldn't hold off with a musket in 2 different cities so I just folded.

In early republic, it's not uncommon for me to have fewer than 10 units...mostly to defend border cities that are strategically important. Sometimes the AI will declare war if a city is open to grab it. At the time that particular war started, I was scrambling to defend vs. just the Babylonians and had the Germans declared war from the North, I would have been in trouble.

 

[Spoonwood]

At that point of the game, it was Knights vs. musketeers on defense, so it was a much closer run thing. You can see they grabbed a city and I never got it back (even though I tried to culture border it into a flip). With all the workers I had, it was close on support costs so I wasn't heavily defended against a VERY long front. A pretty large stack showed up that I couldn't hold off with a musket in 2 different cities so I just folded.

I noticed that you went with 9 frenemies. I think if you have 15 instead, or maximum for whatever the map allows for, the length of the borders ends up smaller. Though, I do agree that's a significant issue when starting a war.

 

[BlackBetsy]

I noticed that you went with 9 frenemies. I think if you have 15 instead, or maximum for whatever the map allows for, the length of the borders ends up smaller. Though, I do agree that's a significant issue when starting a war.

I do that to give maximum expansion space - the map isn't any bigger for 16 civs than it is for 10, so you have more expansion space without war. And once you are done with the scientific civs, there isn't much benefit to having additional smaller civs around since they research less than bigger civs. The map always gets filled.

 

[Spoonwood]

And once you are done with the scientific civs, there isn't much benefit to having additional smaller civs around since they research less than bigger civs.

More AIs have gold to trade. Also, they might trade to gpt to each other, so their might be more gold overall. There's a better uncorrupted to corrupted commerce ratio for AIs. Also, more citizens grow more quickly with more AIs around.

 

[Spoonwood]

It an optimized specialist city, you would have 3 scientists out of 6 citizens, generating 10 total beakers per turn. I am assuming you aren't building an aqueduct as you are just taking squares from other cities at pop 7-12. That is 1,000 beakers per turn per 100 specialist cities. If you have a core of 30 cities (OCN is about that for higher levels), you should be generating 2000+ beakers per turn if not more from the core at 100% research (in my Monarch SS 1415 game, my top 3 cities totaled 630 beakers per turn at 100%, then then next 30 or so averaged about 45). So 200 specialist cities = 2,000 beakers + core research of 2000 and you've got 4000, which is not enough for 4 turn Robotics, but close. At 330 cities, with 300 optimized specialist cities, you've got 5000 per turn and everything is 4 turns easily.

Looking at Civ Assist II, for Huge Sid, the most expensive technologies needed (Integrated Defense is not), are Robotics and Miniaturization both costing 32,000 beakers. 2000 from a core, plus 400 specialist cities at 9 beakers each, would make (10 x 400) + 2000 = 6000 beakers per turn. That's 6 turn research. Just 400 specialist farms could do 8 turn research. Either of which seems like a good pace to me for Sid research.

At Deity, those technologies cost 21,333 beakers. That's 4 turn research with 6000 beakers per turn! And just the specialist farms could do 6 turn research also, which sounds good to me for Deity.

At Demigod, they cost 18,285 beakers. That's also 4 turn research with 5600 beakers per turn. 400 specialist farms could do 5 turn research by their self.

At Emperor, the cost for both technologies is 16,000 beakers. Again, 4 turn research with 5600 beakers per turn. 400 specialist farms makes for exactly 4 turn turn research also.

400 specialist farms thought might be a little high with AIs around, since the hard coded city limit applies based on the total number of cities on the map.

 

[BlackBetsy]

I did NOT know that techs were more expensive at higher levels. I thought that techs were the same on every map size.

 

[Spoonwood]

I did NOT know that techs were more expensive at higher levels. I thought that techs were the same on every map size.

Well, they are the same on every difficulty. They are also not the same on every difficulty.

To make sense of that, ask what's the tech cost for whom?

Alright, the AIs aren't going to make scientist specialist farms. So, technological cost does vary with map size and also with difficulty level for the purposes of this thread. Tech cost varies for the human player based on difficulty level. I'm guessing a good, more detailed explanation can get found here. What makes techs cost more at higher levels is the cost factor, which also is what changes the cost for AI cities to grow or starve, and for them to build units or improvements.

 

[Spoonwood]

This math is relatively impenetrable....what I need is a rule of thumb.

Thinking more about this, I think the way to get a read comes as to see what a city can do commerce wise once in Republic. O. K., it's corruption might get slightly worse with more cities, but eventually "we love the leader" day might come into effect, so I say don't worry about such a change. What we do consists of follows:

1. Once we have a new city or young city, where we aren't sure whether it can use a courthouse or is "hopelessly corrupt" we temporarily set the tax, science, or luxury slider to 100%. The science slider likely makes it easier to get a good read. In the worst case, we have 2 commerce from the city center, and possibly 2 more from some other roaded tile, or hopefully soon will. If we have 4 total commerce, and 2 end up uncorrupted, that also means that it would produce two uncorrupted shields for 4 total shields. So, about 50% uncorrupted. That sounds like a courthouse will end up finishing soon enough to come as worth it (though the city can probably put out a worker or two first before making a courthouse). If we have any coasts or rivers we might also do a quick check, since that would make for 5 total commerce.

2. We might also check once the city reaches size 2, or 3, or 4. Maximize commerce. If we have 6 total commerce, do we make 2 uncorrputed commerce at 100% science? Maybe that's high enough to finish a courthouse. If we have 8 total commerce, do we make only 2 uncorrupted commerce? That strikes me as too low. If so, forget a courthouse in that area and make ICS specialist farms instead. If it makes 8 total commerce with 3 uncorrputed, then I think the courthouse could be worth it.

It should be easiest to do such checks on for coastal cities, due to the extra commerce of coast squares. One idea might consit in checking coastal cities first in an area. Then if it seems to potentially produce a decent amount of uncorrupted commerce to finish a courthouse, then other cities in that area will also get a courthouse. But, if it's too much, forget the courthouses.

Also, consider temporarily using any gems or gold, or extra commerce sources. In one of my (non-Huge) saves I found this city on a gold hill with gems nearby:

But 2 uncorrupted commerce is what one gets in any case once a city produces 12 total commerce. So, clearly that area, once cleared would make for specialist farm territory instead of courthouse territory.

O. K., so thinking more, for a land city, in the worst case it can make 7 total shields before corruption at size 6 with just mined tiles on grassland. If it can make only 2 shields, that's 50 turns on an aqueduct without any forest chops or 40 turns on a courthouse. If it can make 3 shields, that makes for 34 turns for the aqueduct, and 27 turns on a courthouse. 27 turns for a courthouse strikes me as reasonable (and many cases will end up better). So, I think if you have 7 total commerce and 3 uncorrupted commerce, go for the courthouse and other infrastructure instead of specialist farms.

With forested or mined tiles, and non-agricultural, that's 9 shields total. Can it make 3 shields? Maybe it needs to make 4, I don't know. But, the idea of using temporary commerce setups to get a read on it's potential shield production I think will help.

With the agricultural trait, each shield can get boosted by one, since an extra food is also an extra shield if you forest or mine tiles.

 

[tjs282]

I mean, for what it takes to clear a jungle (16 turns for native worker, right?), you get 5 roads on grassland/plains or 2 fully irrigated / roaded tiles plus 2 turns towards a 3rd road..... Jungles are such worker action sucks.

If your Civ's not Industrious, it's 24 turns to clear Jungle. So if you can get a 4-6-turn Settler-pump(s) set up, it might well be worth "clearing" Jungle near your Capital by Settling it at Cx[C]xC, and just using those CrapTowns to build 10-turn Workers (or maybe Settlers in Banana-towns).

Later on, once the intervening tiles have been cleared, you can Worker-abandon the intermediate [C] towns, exposing the underlying Grassland (which the newly built Worker can now road in 3 turns instead of 9 turns) and converting the remaining towns into a more standard CxxxC core layout. And no improvements to be built in any Jungle-town before it reaches at least Pop4-5!

Marsh is even worse because you can't settle on it for a free road / chop

Marsh does have the advantage that the AI won't touch it, though. So it's essentially free real-estate that you can Settle at your own convenience, by clearing Marsh tiles to Grassland only where you want to plant your towns (16 turns for a non-IND Worker, or 6 turns to road by 1 Worker, followed by 4 turns to clear with a 4-Worker gang).

Then, as with the Jungle-ICS strat above, set that new town(s) to building only Workers -- at least initially -- who will then clear + road the surrounding tiles, and later be added back in to the town(s) as additional 2fpt-tiles become available to work.

Obviously neither of the 'Wetland' terrains would be high-priority Settlement-areas in the very early stages of a game (possible exceptions = Jungle-Luxes at Emperor+, and/or Banana- or Deer Fish-towns?), but once all the better sites have been grabbed (whether by you, or a DG+ AI), it doesn't make much sense to neglect the more marginal terrain just because it takes longer to improve. The sooner you start, the sooner it's done!

 

[Spoonwood]

Deer-towns?

Deer does not appear in the jungle, only in forests and tundra. Edit: Deer appears in marsh also.

If a town has nothing but jungle/marsh tiles or close, I have it put nothing but workers, or if it makes 2 shields per turn at size 1, then artillery-worker combos (I mean catapult/trebuchet/cannons... not artillery proper).

 

[tjs282]

Deer does not appear in the jungle, only in forests and tundra

And Marsh?

(Hmmm... Now that I think about it, I may have modded that into my current game, to replace the Fish -- which otherwise end up flopping about on the Grass...)


I've edited my post above...