HUMANKIND a Civ VI killer?

[mitsho]

It also has to last a whole game.

And no, I don‘t think it‘s more complex than the legacy traits. Or rather, they don‘t need to be. Because...

But I really don‘t feel like doing a large debate / defense here now. We will see

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Well, OK, but each civilization also has multiple unique music tracks and leader animations and dialogue lines that are recorded in "native" languages. Does Humankind have any of that for the 60 factions? That's a lot of work. I don't think the avatars in Humankind quite compare (though they are really neat and I quite like them!).

Indeed. The Humankind Leader personalities, at this stage, just don't compare with the jolliness of Mansa Musa, the arrogance of Alexander, and the slurred r's of Harald Hardrada. We'll see though.

 

[TreVor_ish]

Leaders and distinct music in Civ VI, are those top notch things. Comparing Traits, well You can actually add more Traits based on Era which can make it even more flavorful in CIV, nothing also stops anyone to add more units/districts/buildings based on era/techs that could extend experience even more. Humankind however will have an AI dll released stright up, which can make it possible to extend tactical aspects and let it be able to teach AI usage of any modded things and additional behavior.

 

[Narcisse]

Well, OK, but each civilization also has multiple unique music tracks and leader animations and dialogue lines that are recorded in "native" languages. Does Humankind have any of that for the 60 factions? That's a lot of work. I don't think the avatars in Humankind quite compare (though they are really neat and I quite like them!).

oh, I don't worry on Humankind OST. It will mainly be a matter of tastes if we absolutly want to compare. But in term of quantity and quality it will be really good. I don't even know why this point come on the table. They have a really competent composer since endless games and they announced a large ost for HK (era themes, cultures theme, etc...)

For the rest, yeah, it's rather impossible in term of work to have 60 different animations and voiced dialogues. It would be a gigantic work. And to be honest, I am more interessed of having new civilizations, quarters, units, gameplay mechanics, than focus on the leader (again a question of tastes) and it will be a blessing for modders And having a customized avatar is simply an interessing take to change from the famous leaders trope. (and not just being a civ clone, when some of us wished for having customized avatar in a 4x)

For voiced dialogues, it seems obvious than it will never happen, basically because some languages of ancient cultures are lost. And even in Civ 6, they made some good work for some leaders, but there is really wacky ones too.
For animations, we will be able to chose a set of "behaviour" which change the animations of our avatar, it's a decent idea.

 

[Zaarin]

oh, I don't worry on Humankind OST. It will mainly be a matter of tastes if we absolutly want to compare. But in term of quantity and quality it will be really good. I don't even know why this point come on the table. They have a really competent composer since endless games and they announced a large ost for HK (era themes, cultures theme, etc...)

Agreed. Geoff Knorr and FlybyNo are both phenomenal composers.

 

[Kwami]

oh, I don't worry on Humankind OST. It will mainly be a matter of tastes if we absolutly want to compare. But in term of quantity and quality it will be really good. I don't even know why this point come on the table. They have a really competent composer since endless games and they announced a large ost for HK (era themes, cultures theme, etc...)

For the rest, yeah, it's rather impossible in term of work to have 60 different animations and voiced dialogues. It would be a gigantic work. And to be honest, I am more interessed of having new civilizations, quarters, units, gameplay mechanics, than focus on the leader (again a question of tastes) and it will be a blessing for modders And having a customized avatar is simply an interessing take to change from the famous leaders trope. (and not just being a civ clone, when some of us wished for having customized avatar in a 4x)

For voiced dialogues, it seems obvious than it will never happen, basically because some languages of ancient cultures are lost. And even in Civ 6, they made some good work for some leaders, but there is really wacky ones too.
For animations, we will be able to chose a set of "behaviour" which change the animations of our avatar, it's a decent idea.

I mean, I wasn't knocking Humankind. It looks like a lot of fun and I've played every other Amplitude game to death. I was just saying that a faction in Humankind doesn't require the same investment to create as a civilization + leader in Civ VI. So, saying 60 factions > 50 civilizations isn't really right.

 

[Narcisse]

For sure. It's why I am so interessed in Humankind, not because it's a "Civ Killer" but because it's a different game. And I will probably continue to play Civ, in same time than HK.
Tbf, at launch , Civ 6 had 19 civilizations. But indeed they have more bonus, some complex modificators, the bonus related to the leader, more units per civ...etc. So a different approach, a civ need to be more complex to stay interesting over a long game.
So yes, in term of content, the two vanilla games will be probably equivalent, and like you said, there is no point to say than the bigger number is the best.

Well, sure, for some part, Firaxis is a much bigger machine, it's why we have the amazing wonders constructions (the animation !) for exemple. But in term of core content, imo it will be rather similar.
But yes leaders require a lot of hard work from Firaxis; the voice acting, animations, modelizations,... I guess than it drains a lot ressources (I remember my naive dream when I was thinking than all civ would get an alternative leader ... But now I see how it was unreasonable to imagine that).

The thing I like with the approach of Humankind system is mainly than we will have cultures which never appeared in Civ. (modern Italians, Mexicans, Olmecs, Harappans, etc...)

Still, I will not miss the leader personality, for me it's part of Civ. If I want to play an iconic leader, religious units, keep one civ over a long game, ... I will simply come back to Civ 6 (until the next opus). And for something else, I will play to Humankind (and Old World)

 

[anonxanemone]

For sure. It's why I am so interessed in Humankind, not because it's a "Civ Killer" but because it's a different game. And I will probably continue to play Civ, in same time than HK.
Tbf, at launch , Civ 6 had 19 civilizations. But indeed they have more bonus, some complex modificators, the bonus related to the leader, more units per civ...etc. So a different approach, a civ need to be more complex to stay interesting over a long game.
So yes, in term of content, the two vanilla games will be probably equivalent, and like you said, there is no point to say than the bigger number is the best.

Well, sure, for some part, Firaxis is a much bigger machine, it's why we have the amazing wonders constructions (the animation !) for exemple. But in term of core content, imo it will be rather similar.
But yes leaders require a lot of hard work from Firaxis; the voice acting, animations, modelizations,... I guess than it drains a lot ressources (I remember my naive dream when I was thinking than all civ would get an alternative leader ... But now I see how it was unreasonable to imagine that).

The thing I like with the approach of Humankind system is mainly than we will have cultures which never appeared in Civ. (modern Italians, Mexicans, Olmecs, Harappans, etc...)

Still, I will not miss the leader personality, for me it's part of Civ. If I want to play an iconic leader, religious units, keep one civ over a long game, ... I will simply come back to Civ 6 (until the next opus). And for something else, I will play to Humankind (and Old World)

The Civilization series is like the Super Mario series but for 4X instead of a platformer--they're the OG of their respective genre. Numerous platformers have been developed (many successful ones at that with various flavors) since it's conception but the the number 4X games has been relatively sparse. I think this is why Humankind is refreshing to the fans of the series. Like Mario and Sonic, there is no reason games of the same genre have to be mutually exclusive.

 

[bbbt]

The Civilization series is like the Super Mario series but for 4X instead of a platformer--they're the OG of their respective genre. Numerous platformers have been developed (many successful ones at that with various flavors) since it's conception but the the number 4X games has been relatively sparse. I think this is why Humankind is refreshing to the fans of the series. Like Mario and Sonic, there is no reason games of the same genre have to be mutually exclusive.

Yeah the premise of this thread is a bit flawed in that regard, as games are not a zero sum equation. A poorly received Civ 7 is what could 'kill' the Civ series, not Humankind. In fact, a successful Humankind could potentially expand the audience for 4x and contribute to new Civ players.

I.e. successful Marvel movies doesn't mean DC movies won't be successful. Bad DC movies mean DC movies won't be successful. Good Marvel movies can in fact increase the general audience for comic book movies overall.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Yeah the premise of this thread is a bit flawed in that regard, as games are not a zero sum equation. A poorly received Civ 7 is what could 'kill' the Civ series, not Humankind. In fact, a successful Humankind could potentially expand the audience for 4x and contribute to new Civ players.

I.e. successful Marvel movies doesn't mean DC movies won't be successful. Bad DC movies mean DC movies won't be successful. Good Marvel movies can in fact increase the general audience for comic book movies overall.

Good point. If a game draws attention to a specific genre, it could attract attention to other games of the same genre. All profit. I've experienced this effect before.

 

[ThunderLizard2]

For sure. It's why I am so interessed in Humankind, not because it's a "Civ Killer" but because it's a different game. And I will probably continue to play Civ, in same time than HK.
Tbf, at launch , Civ 6 had 19 civilizations. But indeed they have more bonus, some complex modificators, the bonus related to the leader, more units per civ...etc. So a different approach, a civ need to be more complex to stay interesting over a long game.
So yes, in term of content, the two vanilla games will be probably equivalent, and like you said, there is no point to say than the bigger number is the best.

Well, sure, for some part, Firaxis is a much bigger machine, it's why we have the amazing wonders constructions (the animation !) for exemple. But in term of core content, imo it will be rather similar.
But yes leaders require a lot of hard work from Firaxis; the voice acting, animations, modelizations,... I guess than it drains a lot ressources (I remember my naive dream when I was thinking than all civ would get an alternative leader ... But now I see how it was unreasonable to imagine that).

The thing I like with the approach of Humankind system is mainly than we will have cultures which never appeared in Civ. (modern Italians, Mexicans, Olmecs, Harappans, etc...)

Still, I will not miss the leader personality, for me it's part of Civ. If I want to play an iconic leader, religious units, keep one civ over a long game, ... I will simply come back to Civ 6 (until the next opus). And for something else, I will play to Humankind (and Old World)

If "Firaxis is a much bigger machine" they why do we have a braindead AI and buggy mechanics after five years? That's why we need a true competitor in the historical 4X space and HumanKind looks to be playing that role. Civ VI does not play to the original Civ fanatics audience and that's why HK will be the Civ killer.

 

[aieeegrunt]

If "Firaxis is a much bigger machine" they why do we have a braindead AI and buggy mechanics after five years? That's why we need a true competitor in the historical 4X space and HumanKind looks to be playing that role. Civ VI does not play to the original Civ fanatics audience and that's why HK will be the Civ killer.

I’m sure that Fireaxis is probably subjected to the same “The beaurocracy expands to meet the needs of the expanding beaurocracy” effect of any large organization over time where you have too few actual developers spending too much of their time filling out TPS reports

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

If "Firaxis is a much bigger machine" they why do we have a braindead AI and buggy mechanics after five years? That's why we need a true competitor in the historical 4X space and HumanKind looks to be playing that role. Civ VI does not play to the original Civ fanatics audience and that's why HK will be the Civ killer.

I dislike this rhetoric being spread that says that Humankind will do away with the Civilization franchise and kill it. @bbbt has made a good point that if Humankind brings more attention to the 4x genre, people who want to play similar games will also likely go to Civ 6, 5, 4, etc.

To address your bigger machine point, a bigger machine should be expected to be more prone to needing repairs. These repairs also take more time as we need to watch over the other parts of this machine.

 

[aieeegrunt]

I dislike this rhetoric being spread that says that Humankind will do away with the Civilization franchise and kill it. @bbbt has made a good point that if Humankind brings more attention to the 4x genre, people who want to play similar games will also likely go to Civ 6, 5, 4, etc.

To address your bigger machine point, a bigger machine should be expected to be more prone to needing repairs. These repairs also take more time as we need to watch over the other parts of this machine.

It will only kill it it if they pull a Halo 5 and decide “we need to be more like Call of Duty”

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

It will only kill it it if they pull a Halo 5 and decide “we need to be more like Call of Duty”

I have no clue what you mean by that, I have almost no knowledge about either of those game franchises, but I will assume that you are right.

 

[aieeegrunt]

I have no clue what you mean by that, I have almost no knowledge about either of those game franchises, but I will assume that you are right.

Lol sorry dude. Its like when your game is a certain “style” that has been that way for like 4 sequels, and then you decide to suddenly change it to ape a competitor

An even better example is Fallout 76

Fallout has always been an offline single player story sandbox RPG with mods You only go online for patches, mods DLC etc. It’s pure single player, it doesn’t even have Co Op.

Hey I know! Always online multiplayer PvP with crafting and survival is hot right now! Lets turn Fallout into that and ditch the single player, story, and mods!!

Fallout fans: This is literally the exact opposite of what I want. I ordered a steak from my favorite restaurant and the waiter announced that he is now a dentist and shoved a power drill into my mouth instead

 

[Kwami]

If "Firaxis is a much bigger machine" they why do we have a braindead AI and buggy mechanics after five years? That's why we need a true competitor in the historical 4X space and HumanKind looks to be playing that role. Civ VI does not play to the original Civ fanatics audience and that's why HK will be the Civ killer.

If the AI is your biggest concern, then you aren't likely to be impressed by Humankind. The AI in every previous game from Amplitude has been pretty bad. You'll probably have to hope that modders can fix it...

Then again, it was never good in previous Civilization games, either, so I guess I don't know what you mean by "original Civ fanatics audience". Surely, this isn't about historicity. After all, Humankinds lets you be the Egyptian Chinese Americans rules by a deific avatar with special powers.

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

basically because some languages of ancient cultures are lost.

This is a big issue for a lot of Ancient-era civilizations. Harappans, the Mississippians, the Olmecs... what did their language sound like? Even Trung Trac - her language (Lac) is lost. Sometimes, we can guess, sometimes we can substitute a present-day language for a past one, but sometimes it's just not possible to accurately present such a thing. History does not make a coherent picture; it's snippets that sometimes have key pieces missing, and sometimes is self-contradictory. Also... name a Harappan figure. Tell me about their religion, their society. We have a wonderful and evocative series of archaeological sites and an un-translated language, but no story to tell.

Historians love a people who obsess over record-keeping (Rome, China). Then there's those people who are dutiful about putting up stelae with self-congratulatory stories of a king or two on them and maybe some oral histories (Khmer, Vikings, Maya). But then there's people who were here and now aren't... And imagine the thousands of languages, stories, and personalities that have been forever lost to time...

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

This is a big issue for a lot of Ancient-era civilizations. Harappans, the Mississippians, the Olmecs... what did their language sound like? Even Trung Trac - her language (Lac) is lost. Sometimes, we can guess, sometimes we can substitute a present-day language for a past one, but sometimes it's just not possible to accurately present such a thing. History does not make a coherent picture; it's snippets that sometimes have key pieces missing, and sometimes is self-contradictory. Also... name a Harappan figure. Tell me about their religion, their society. We have a wonderful and evocative series of archaeological sites and an un-translated language, but no story to tell.

Historians love a people who obsess over record-keeping (Rome, China). Then there's those people who are dutiful about putting up stelae with self-congratulatory stories of a king or two on them and maybe some oral histories (Khmer, Vikings, Maya). But then there's people who were here and now aren't... And imagine the thousands of languages, stories, and personalities that have been forever lost to time...

Indeed.

 

[God of Kings]

The Civilization series is like the Super Mario series but for 4X instead of a platformer--they're the OG of their respective genre. Numerous platformers have been developed (many successful ones at that with various flavors) since it's conception but the the number 4X games has been relatively sparse. I think this is why Humankind is refreshing to the fans of the series. Like Mario and Sonic, there is no reason games of the same genre have to be mutually exclusive.

...and Mario isn't the only successful Nintendo platformer.

Donkey Kong, Yoshi, and Kirby come to mind (Mario itself spun off from Donkey Kong, while Yoshi spun off from Mario; Kirby is jointly owned by Nintendo and HAL Laboratory).