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HUMANKIND a Civ VI killer?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by ThunderLizard2, Nov 9, 2020.

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  1. Zegangani

    Zegangani Prince

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    The AI DLL will be available. And UI doesn't seem a Big Issue of Humankind (unless one wants to modify Mechanisms or add new ones). Anyway, it's possible to modify Unity Games' DLLs, so although no scripting for Humankind (at least not very soon after the release), people would still be able to modify Stuff like Mechanisms from the Game (maybe even UI).
     
  2. ThunderLizard2

    ThunderLizard2 Warlord

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    Agree. For me it's been downhill since Civ IV BTS. Hopefully, HumanKind will bring back that "just one more turn" feeling that's been lost since Civ IV. Let's face it Civ VI is a borefest with nonsense like zombies being added to distract us from the broken mechanics and braindead AI. It's just bread and circuses approach.

    That's a big plus is dll availability that HK will provide. They're not afraid to have others fix up their code if needed. What irks me is Firaxis promised Civ VI "was designed from the ground up with deep mod support in mind" and they don't even release the dll code so it's the least moddable and most shallow mod support. That's just a bait-n-switch approach.
     
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  3. pokiehl

    pokiehl Emperor

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    This is an unfair assessment. You don’t mod so I’ll correct you here: Civ 6 is extremely moddable. The modifier system - which is the primary core of gameplay (meaning it was “designed from the ground up” this way) has made for overall an extremely flexible system for changing aspects of gameplay. The inclusion of an asset viewer and the asset pantry has made graphics modding more possible than ever before.

    This singleminded view that DLL = modding and that’s it is uninformed. Yes there are limitations without the DLL, but DLL modding itself has its own limitations. Just because to YOU being able to mod the AI more is your sole focus on modding doesn’t mean that it is for everyone.

    The DLL is not a modding panacea, point blank. Some of you are idealizing it too much.
     
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  4. Aristos

    Aristos Lightseeker

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    It is the "panacea" for modding the almost non-existent AI, point blank. And the AI is by far the weakest aspect of Civ 6, and the main factor of its unrealized potential.

    "Unrealized potential" is the key to understand the critical posture some of us hold. Many of us have been with Civ since 1991, and it is that true brand loyalty that makes us cringe when we see so much unrealized potential. If you can understand this, you may answer your own questions.

    The DLL source code is key to try and fix the weakest element of the experience.
     
    j51, tzu and Zegangani like this.
  5. Kwami

    Kwami Deity

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    Strong disagree.

    But HK isn't releasing "the DLL", though. They're only releasing a DLL that contains the AI code, and maybe not even right away.
     
    Kupe Navigator and pokiehl like this.
  6. Aristos

    Aristos Lightseeker

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    Judging by the tactical AI's performance during early alpha OpenDev, they may not need to release the source code to fix any AI... ;)
     
  7. Kwami

    Kwami Deity

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    I'm highly doubtful of that. So far, every Amplitude game has had pretty terrible AI.
     
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  8. Aristos

    Aristos Lightseeker

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    Did you try the OpenDev scenarios?
     
  9. pokiehl

    pokiehl Emperor

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    Enough with the strawman arguments when you guys quote me. My post was responding to the claim that the “civ 6 is the least moddable with the most shallow modding support.” Your post doesn’t address that.

    I really don’t care how old you are or how long you’ve been a “fan.” Why do you keep bringing this up like some trump card? It’s completely irrelevant. It doesn’t make your opinions of the series any more valid than mine.

    I don’t think you’re some authority on Civ 6 just because you played civ 1.

    Yes, all 3. The combat was bad. Worst part of the game by far, although I also think the UI is ugly and the terrain is weirdly yellow.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2021
  10. Zegangani

    Zegangani Prince

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    The Devs of Humankind had quite good experience with the Modding Community of their Sci-Fi Games. The Modders seem to have made quite good job with just modifying the xml files of the game. The Devs saw the potential benefit of their Games when they are Modding friendly, and hence decided to focus on Moddability of Humankind since the beginning.

    Hope Civ 7 will do it similarly, at least with releasing the AI DLL if not the complete DLL Source Code.

    That's not true, DLL isn't just to mod AI. Civ VI is indeed very Moddable, but it has some limitations that weren't there in the previous iterations. How can we mod the Game to add new Terrain Types with new Art? modifying the Specialist so that they matter? altering the Loyalty System? Expanding the Tiles radius of a City that you can work? Altering the Amenitie/Luxuries? not to mention Diplomacy, WC, the Envoys Systeme...etc.

    Modding a game isn't just about using the same game's modifiers to make something new out of them or adding new Units/Civs/Infrastructures, it's also (actually mainly) about MODIFYING The Game itself, by altering the existing Mechanisms and/or extending them. And That's where Civ VI fails at. There are too few (lua) options that can let that happen, and even those do that just indirecty and mostly at the cost of AI.

    So yeah, Civ VI is quite Moddable in terms of re-using the existing stuff and adding new Art Assets (lately even with limitation, I just started a New game with some Mods that add new Assets and the Game Crashes everytime I try to start a new game :deadhorse:), but not so in modifying the Mechanisms and how they work, add new ones and make AI use them appropriately.

    I really hoped that NFP would contain some lua scripts, like in many preNFP DLCs, with new Lua Objects, so even if we don't get the DLL we would have some new modding options that could be enough to lift the moddability of the game a little bit. But nearly everything about the Modes in NFP is hardcoded. If they just made some Global parameters public, we could have easily fixed the Monopolies Tourism Modifier for example.
     
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  11. pokiehl

    pokiehl Emperor

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    @Zegangani

    Lol... In the first half of your post you say “yeah Humankind modders did a great job with just XML” and defend the Humanmind modding limitations...

    then you write me an essay on your perceived deficiencies of the Civ 6 modding setup while entirely missing the point of my post. :confused:

    I don’t get why anyone is bothering to quote me if they’re going to move goalposts and completely disregard the whole topic of my post.
     
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  12. TreVor_ish

    TreVor_ish Warlord

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    Erm....that's not what he said at all....
    He said, that Amplitude seeing what mod community was able to do with their previous games (using xml), they decided to focus on modding with Humankind. How it's gonna pan out we will see.
     
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  13. Zegangani

    Zegangani Prince

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    That's not what I said. @TreVor_ish guessed that right.
     
  14. Aristos

    Aristos Lightseeker

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    You obviously do not understand what I am saying, but that's OK.
     
  15. PiR

    PiR Prince Supporter

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    Considering this thought totally outside of Civ, that reminds me of a youtuber who kept saying Avengers was the best movie of all times, because it was the one that made the most money. 50 people at least tried to explain that art cannot only be measured by immediate financial success, but that guy kept repeating the same thing all the time. :rolleyes:
     
  16. tzu

    tzu Chieftain

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    Yeah, "skipping record" (Schallplatte mit Sprung), simple rhetorical tactic: You just have to postulate something one time more often than the other can or is inclined to contradict.

    Ignore arguments (on both sides), just focus on one more time.

     
  17. PiR

    PiR Prince Supporter

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    :lol:

    it's almost "one more turn" :goodjob:
     
  18. Kupe Navigator

    Kupe Navigator Emperor

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    This HK hype is going a ridiculous levels... as if HK is a glorified messiah figure in 4x games. I don't have a doubt that HK will be a good game... BUT I don't think it will be a perfect game.
     
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  19. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

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    That's because Morrowind and The Sith Lords are the only perfect games. :mischief: Actually not true: Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons is pretty perfect, too, wonky controls and all.
     
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  20. Linklite

    Linklite King

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    My main hope is that it will provide competition for Civ and so prompt a good game. I've long realised that a game rarely lives up to hype.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2021
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