HUMANKIND a Civ VI killer?

[Zegangani]

So, you can change some values and eventually you'll be able to import new assets. But you can't change the UI, you can't add or modify scripts, and there's no promise of DLL access. I can't imagine that the AI is really "completely moddable" without access to the DLL or at least scripts. Maybe you can change some values? OK.

The AI DLL will be available. And UI doesn't seem a Big Issue of Humankind (unless one wants to modify Mechanisms or add new ones). Anyway, it's possible to modify Unity Games' DLLs, so although no scripting for Humankind (at least not very soon after the release), people would still be able to modify Stuff like Mechanisms from the Game (maybe even UI).

 

[ThunderLizard2]

True. On the other hand, let's take UI as an example because UI mods are by far the most prevalent for Civ 6, both because there is no DLL source so we are limited to the little we can mod, most of it the UI, but also because the UI in Civ 6 is, to say the least, lacking. The irony of this is that I expect HK to be a master class in UI, given the proven record of Amplitude games in this regard. Thus, if that holds true, there will not be a high demand nor need for UI mods if at all.

In other words, moddability is certainly a big factor, but sometimes the lack of mods or demand for them in an area can mean that the area is well served.

About brand loyalty... well, many of us have been with Civ for its entire lifetime, and that is why we care a lot, including harsh criticism. That's why we mod, that's why we complain here about the things that we find wrong, and that is why we root for competition, because it is the most powerful force to make products, and companies, change direction if the one that they selected is not "optimal" (in quotes because it is a very hard and dynamic concept). That is why I want HK to succeed, because I like the direction they are going, I like some of the systems in their games (namely combat), but most of all, because I like the Civ genre and 4X historical strategy gaming, and I want it to survive and succeed as such, be it Civ or whoever takes the throne, if any. Or all of them.

Agree. For me it's been downhill since Civ IV BTS. Hopefully, HumanKind will bring back that "just one more turn" feeling that's been lost since Civ IV. Let's face it Civ VI is a borefest with nonsense like zombies being added to distract us from the broken mechanics and braindead AI. It's just bread and circuses approach.

The AI DLL will be available. And UI doesn't seem a Big Issue of Humankind (unless one wants to modify Mechanisms or add new ones). Anyway, it's possible to modify Unity Games' DLLs, so although no scripting for Humankind (at least not very soon after the release), people would still be able to modify Stuff like Mechanisms from the Game (maybe even UI).

That's a big plus is dll availability that HK will provide. They're not afraid to have others fix up their code if needed. What irks me is Firaxis promised Civ VI "was designed from the ground up with deep mod support in mind" and they don't even release the dll code so it's the least moddable and most shallow mod support. That's just a bait-n-switch approach.

 

[pokiehl]

What irks me is Firaxis promised Civ VI "was designed from the ground up with deep mod support in mind" and they don't even release the dll code so it's the least moddable and most shallow mod support. That's just a bait-n-switch approach.

This is an unfair assessment. You don’t mod so I’ll correct you here: Civ 6 is extremely moddable. The modifier system - which is the primary core of gameplay (meaning it was “designed from the ground up” this way) has made for overall an extremely flexible system for changing aspects of gameplay. The inclusion of an asset viewer and the asset pantry has made graphics modding more possible than ever before.

This singleminded view that DLL = modding and that’s it is uninformed. Yes there are limitations without the DLL, but DLL modding itself has its own limitations. Just because to YOU being able to mod the AI more is your sole focus on modding doesn’t mean that it is for everyone.

The DLL is not a modding panacea, point blank. Some of you are idealizing it too much.

 

[Aristos]

The DLL is not a modding panacea, point blank. Some of you are idealizing it too much.

It is the "panacea" for modding the almost non-existent AI, point blank. And the AI is by far the weakest aspect of Civ 6, and the main factor of its unrealized potential.

"Unrealized potential" is the key to understand the critical posture some of us hold. Many of us have been with Civ since 1991, and it is that true brand loyalty that makes us cringe when we see so much unrealized potential. If you can understand this, you may answer your own questions.

The DLL source code is key to try and fix the weakest element of the experience.

 

[Kwami]

Agree. For me it's been downhill since Civ IV BTS. Hopefully, HumanKind will bring back that "just one more turn" feeling that's been lost since Civ IV. Let's face it Civ VI is a borefest with nonsense like zombies being added to distract us from the broken mechanics and braindead AI. It's just bread and circuses approach.

Strong disagree.

That's a big plus is dll availability that HK will provide. They're not afraid to have others fix up their code if needed. What irks me is Firaxis promised Civ VI "was designed from the ground up with deep mod support in mind" and they don't even release the dll code so it's the least moddable and most shallow mod support. That's just a bait-n-switch approach.

But HK isn't releasing "the DLL", though. They're only releasing a DLL that contains the AI code, and maybe not even right away.

 

[Aristos]

But HK isn't releasing "the DLL", though. They're only releasing a DLL that contains the AI code, and maybe not even right away.

Judging by the tactical AI's performance during early alpha OpenDev, they may not need to release the source code to fix any AI...

 

[Kwami]

Judging by the tactical AI's performance during early alpha OpenDev, they may not need to release the source code to fix any AI...

I'm highly doubtful of that. So far, every Amplitude game has had pretty terrible AI.

 

[Aristos]

I'm highly doubtful of that. So far, every Amplitude game has had pretty terrible AI.

Did you try the OpenDev scenarios?

 

[pokiehl]

It is the "panacea" for modding the almost non-existent AI, point blank. And the AI is by far the weakest aspect of Civ 6, and the main factor of its unrealized potential.

Enough with the strawman arguments when you guys quote me. My post was responding to the claim that the “civ 6 is the least moddable with the most shallow modding support.” Your post doesn’t address that.

Many of us have been with Civ since 1991, and it is that true brand loyalty that makes us cringe when we see so much unrealized potential. If you can understand this, you may answer your own questions.

I really don’t care how old you are or how long you’ve been a “fan.” Why do you keep bringing this up like some trump card? It’s completely irrelevant. It doesn’t make your opinions of the series any more valid than mine.

I don’t think you’re some authority on Civ 6 just because you played civ 1.

Did you try the OpenDev scenarios?

Yes, all 3. The combat was bad. Worst part of the game by far, although I also think the UI is ugly and the terrain is weirdly yellow.

 

[Zegangani]

That's a big plus is dll availability that HK will provide. They're not afraid to have others fix up their code if needed. What irks me is Firaxis promised Civ VI "was designed from the ground up with deep mod support in mind" and they don't even release the dll code so it's the least moddable and most shallow mod support. That's just a bait-n-switch approach.

The Devs of Humankind had quite good experience with the Modding Community of their Sci-Fi Games. The Modders seem to have made quite good job with just modifying the xml files of the game. The Devs saw the potential benefit of their Games when they are Modding friendly, and hence decided to focus on Moddability of Humankind since the beginning.

Hope Civ 7 will do it similarly, at least with releasing the AI DLL if not the complete DLL Source Code.

This singleminded view that DLL = modding and that’s it is uninformed. Yes there are limitations without the DLL, but DLL modding itself has its own limitations. Just because to YOU being able to mod the AI more is your sole focus on modding doesn’t mean that it is for everyone.

That's not true, DLL isn't just to mod AI. Civ VI is indeed very Moddable, but it has some limitations that weren't there in the previous iterations. How can we mod the Game to add new Terrain Types with new Art? modifying the Specialist so that they matter? altering the Loyalty System? Expanding the Tiles radius of a City that you can work? Altering the Amenitie/Luxuries? not to mention Diplomacy, WC, the Envoys Systeme...etc.

Modding a game isn't just about using the same game's modifiers to make something new out of them or adding new Units/Civs/Infrastructures, it's also (actually mainly) about MODIFYING The Game itself, by altering the existing Mechanisms and/or extending them. And That's where Civ VI fails at. There are too few (lua) options that can let that happen, and even those do that just indirecty and mostly at the cost of AI.

So yeah, Civ VI is quite Moddable in terms of re-using the existing stuff and adding new Art Assets (lately even with limitation, I just started a New game with some Mods that add new Assets and the Game Crashes everytime I try to start a new game ), but not so in modifying the Mechanisms and how they work, add new ones and make AI use them appropriately.

I really hoped that NFP would contain some lua scripts, like in many preNFP DLCs, with new Lua Objects, so even if we don't get the DLL we would have some new modding options that could be enough to lift the moddability of the game a little bit. But nearly everything about the Modes in NFP is hardcoded. If they just made some Global parameters public, we could have easily fixed the Monopolies Tourism Modifier for example.

 

[pokiehl]

@Zegangani

Lol... In the first half of your post you say “yeah Humankind modders did a great job with just XML” and defend the Humanmind modding limitations...

then you write me an essay on your perceived deficiencies of the Civ 6 modding setup while entirely missing the point of my post.

I don’t get why anyone is bothering to quote me if they’re going to move goalposts and completely disregard the whole topic of my post.

 

[TreVor_ish]

Erm....that's not what he said at all....
He said, that Amplitude seeing what mod community was able to do with their previous games (using xml), they decided to focus on modding with Humankind. How it's gonna pan out we will see.

 

[Zegangani]

Lol... In the first half of your post you say “yeah Humankind modders did a great job with just XML” and defend the Humanmind modding limitations...

That's not what I said. @TreVor_ish guessed that right.

 

[Aristos]

I don’t think you’re some authority on Civ 6 just because you played civ 1.

You obviously do not understand what I am saying, but that's OK.

 

[PiR]

Dissent: Financial success and popularity does not directly correlate with quality. Oftentimes financial success is due to a combination of mass marketing and calculatedly underperforming (be it diluting creative identity with token demographic pandering or pruning away controversy that softens the themes and message). Financial success measures some positive things, like the funds to create more, but I think it is a slippery slope to equate it with the inherent goodness of a thing.

Considering this thought totally outside of Civ, that reminds me of a youtuber who kept saying Avengers was the best movie of all times, because it was the one that made the most money. 50 people at least tried to explain that art cannot only be measured by immediate financial success, but that guy kept repeating the same thing all the time.

 

[tzu]

kept saying Avengers was the best movie of all times, because it was the one that made the most money. 50 people at least tried to explain that art cannot only be measured by immediate financial success, but that guy kept repeating the same thing all the time.

Yeah, "skipping record" (Schallplatte mit Sprung), simple rhetorical tactic: You just have to postulate something one time more often than the other can or is inclined to contradict.

Ignore arguments (on both sides), just focus on one more time.

 

[PiR]

just focus on one more time.

it's almost "one more turn"

 

[Kupe Navigator]

This HK hype is going a ridiculous levels... as if HK is a glorified messiah figure in 4x games. I don't have a doubt that HK will be a good game... BUT I don't think it will be a perfect game.

 

[Zaarin]

BUT I don't think it will be a perfect game.

That's because Morrowind and The Sith Lords are the only perfect games. Actually not true: Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons is pretty perfect, too, wonky controls and all.

 

[Linklite]

This HK hype is going a ridiculous levels... as if HK is a glorified messiah figure in 4x games. I don't have a doubt that HK will be a good game... BUT I don't think it will be a perfect game.

My main hope is that it will provide competition for Civ and so prompt a good game. I've long realised that a game rarely lives up to hype.