Humankind - Aztecs Discussion thread

[Krajzen]

Huh. Three militarist cultures and no aestethe one is an unusual set of affinities.

 

[Siptah]

This looks very nice, actually.

I withhold judgement on the missing aesthete affinity once I know what it does and what the legacy traits/EQ effects of that era are. I guess an Aesthete‘s special mechanic produces lots influence and some traits and quarters might help with that as well. It‘s interesting that you cannot get the extra fame for influence based era stars in medieval this way. Not sure if there are any other drawbacks of not having an aesthete - legacy traits seem to be much more important in the long run and offer greater variety anyway.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

No Eagle Warrior? No chinampa? No ball court? Colour me disappointed.

Is something wrong with a Jaguar Warrior?

 

[zhugejingqi]

Personally I find the legacy trait more influential, since it's actually shaping your civ as the game goes by. The affinity is only for the particular era you are playing. It gives a strong ability, but feels very situational.

Many heritage capabilities, such as more scientific and technological output, food output and industrial value output, will be transformed into other things in the special pattern of attributes, such as scientists' scientific fanaticism and builders' production fanaticism. They are definitely not the most influential。

 

[mitsho]

Yeah, let‘s wait for the rest of the reveals. It might as well be that some affinities will not be present in later eras as well, agrarian for example in the Modern era. Or they will change their minds and change one culture to aesthetes. I can see Amplitude doing that (unlike Firaxis).

I‘m a bit disapointed that the Aztecs are not Agrarian, but I guess they thought that sacrificing units is a more fun gameplay activity as opposed to building quarters in Lakes (Chinampas). And I can see their point there. There‘s always time to add more.

 

[conorbebe]

Is something wrong with a Jaguar Warrior?

Nothing wrong, but less iconic if you ask me.

On the bright side, this opens up the possibility of having a bird-themed unit for a potential Mississippian of Rapa Nui culture in the future.

It's even more curious to me now that it was decided that the Byzantines would be Merchant and not Aesthete, considering we don't have a single one this era...

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Nothing wrong, but less iconic if you ask me.

Honestly I think the Eagle Warrior is less iconic than the Jaguar Warrior.
Civ 6 is the only game that I can think of that picked them over the Jaguars. All the other iterations of Civ had the Jaguars and in the Age of Empire series as well.
In the end it doesn't really matter because they both were similar. The only difference is what they wore.

 

[conorbebe]

Honestly I think the Eagle Warrior is less iconic than the Jaguar Warrior.
Civ 6 is the only game that I can think of that picked them over the Jaguars. All the other iterations of Civ had the Jaguars and in the Age of Empire series as well.
In the end it doesn't really matter because they both were similar. The only difference is what they wore.

That's fair. I guess my disappointment is more with the EQ honestly, but maybe it will have unique mechanics tied into the sacrifice of units captured by Jaguar Warriors. That would be cool to see.

 

[Catoninetales_Amplitude]

I wonder if Amplitude chose not to include an Aesthete culture for the Medieval Era, because they wanted to imply that Medieval art was less impressive than in other eras? Or maybe they just saw the Medieval period as more warlike?

Either they've given in to this stereotype that the Medieval Era was a "Dark Age" ...

...or it wasn't their intention, and they're probably going to have some Aesthete medieval civs in a future DLC, or create a kind of symmetry for later eras as @Elhoim suggested.

I think if the intention had been to portray the medieval era as dark ages, our Historian would have had some very strong words about that to the designers, so I doubt that was the intention. I'll let you know more once I get a chance to talk to them.

Many heritage capabilities, such as more scientific and technological output, food output and industrial value output, will be transformed into other things in the special pattern of attributes, such as scientists' scientific fanaticism and builders' production fanaticism. They are definitely not the most influential。

If this is in reference to a remark I made earlier about the Builder and Scientist affinites: The LEgacy traits do not change. But as those two abilities allow you to convert one resource into another, they are very flexible in using some of these legacy bonus yields.

Yeah, a ball court would have been nice...

As far as I recall, there's a ballcourt in front of the temple of the Emblematic Quarter.

 

[CivLuvah]

I think if the intention had been to portray the medieval era as dark ages, our Historian would have had some very strong words about that to the designers, so I doubt that was the intention. I'll let you know more once I get a chance to talk to them.

It's good to hear that it's taken into consideration in the design process!

 

[ehecatzin]

Welp I've been a bit disconected and late to the Aztec reveal.

I really like the design, Catoninetales got there before me, wanted to mention the Ballcourt IS in the EQ, the fact that the ballcourt keeps being used as a Unique aplicable to any mesoamerican civ in strategy games should be a clue as to how widespread it was...making it a very bad choice for a unique building. I rather prefer the way Amplitude went, to showcase it as part of a ceremonial city center.

Now the one thing I don't like is the name...sacrificial altar for the whole ceremonial center, as the prescence of the ball game should clue you, Tenochtitlan city center was an amalgam of civil, government and religious buildings, sure the main temples are there, but so was the ball game, educational institutes, the palace (at least originalyl), and administration buildings, and in the case of Tlatelolco...the main market. I think Ceremonial center was a better fit, or if you want to go Nahuatl use the serpent wall that limited it, Coatepanlti.

Personally I was hoping for a chinampa for emblematic quarter...which leads me to...if the sacrificial altar is modeled right after Tenochtitlan city center, does that mean Amplitude is using Axayacatl palace as city center? please let it be true Pyramids weren't mesoamerica's palaces...palaces were mesoamerica's palaces.

Spoiler :

As for the Eagle and Jaguar dilema...honestly it comes down to what you want to feature, as both orders were the same rank historically, don't forget Aztecs were obsessed with duality, if anything I'd say Eagles have been less featured in popular media overall. maybe Jaguar just gets across the fierce part better, who knows.

I'm rather more curious about the Aztec skins for other units, maybe they could feature Eagles there.

I really like the way the Aztecs were designed, just that name, but I guess I can live with it.

EDIT: Also...Im a bit worried that Aztec being medieval means either future medieval mesoamerican civs get pushed out or lumped together at the same time. eg: Toltecs.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

As for the Eagle and Jaguar dilema...honestly it comes down to what you want to feature, as both orders were the same rank historically, don't forget Aztecs were obsessed with duality, if anything I'd say Eagles have been less featured in popular media overall. maybe Jaguar just gets across the fierce part better, who knows.

I'm rather more curious about the Aztec skins for other units, maybe they could feature Eagles there.

I really like the way the Aztecs were designed, just that name, but I guess I can live with it.

I'm pretty sure the AoE series had the eagle warriors as universal units for all the Native American tribes too, which is why they went with the Jaguar specifically for the Aztecs in that game.

Maybe it will be the same, at least for the Mesoamerican civs, like how ballcourts could be seen in Maya and Olmec cities too.

 

[Zaarin]

I‘m a bit disapointed that the Aztecs are not Agrarian

The Aztecs were actively at war for the entirety of their existence as a civilization; I would have been surprised by anything but Militarist.

Im a bit worried that Aztec being medieval means either future medieval mesoamerican civs get pushed out or lumped together at the same time.

We saw Babylon and Assyria together in the Ancient Period; I think there's plenty of room for Medieval Mixtec and/or Zapotec and/or Mayapan in Medieval period. Not so convinced Mesoamerica will actually be given that much attention, but I think there's room at any rate.

Toltecs

Isn't the general trend in Mesoamerican scholarship to regard the Toltecs as an idealized Aztec view of pre-Aztec Mesoamerican cultures rather than a specific civilization or culture?

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

We saw Babylon and Assyria together in the Ancient Period; I think there's plenty of room for Medieval Mixtec and/or Zapotec and/or Mayapan in Medieval period. Not so convinced Mesoamerica will actually be given that much attention, but I think there's room at any rate.

Humankind, IMHO, cries out for some ambitious Modder (or Modding Group) to put together 'Regional' versions of the game: a game in which, for instance, all the factions of the Ancient, Classical, Early Modern Eras are from the Americas, or Europe, or East Asia - allowing those so inclined to explore the real possibilities of (in our specific case here) earlier Olmecs and Toltecs and Mayans influencing Aztecs . . .

Isn't the general trend in Mesoamerican scholarship to regard the Toltecs as an idealized Aztec view of pre-Aztec Mesoamerican cultures rather than a specific civilization or culture?

The Aztecs themselves viewed the 'Toltecs' (natives of Tollan, or modern Tula in Mexico) as the epitome of civilized, urbanized, cultured life, and 'tolteca' in nahautl seems to have been given the meaning of 'civilized', or 'artistic'. The Aztec accounts colored most of the early thinking by Europeans about the Toltecs. Today, a lot of what was written about the 'Toltecs' by the Aztecs is regarded as nearly pure Fiction or Myth.
On the other hand, there was a large urban center at Tollan with some pretty distinctive physical attributes that was the center of some kind of urban culture. The debate now is just how influential that polity was - there are architectural similarities with Chichen Itza, for instance, but a lot of what was supposed to be 'Toltec' influence is now being ascribed, provisionally, to Teotihuacan, and Tollan may have been no more than a single city state with some trade connections (the extent of which is also under debate).
As usual in archeologically-based studies, there is an explosion of new information coming to light in recent years, so everything is subject to constant re-interpretation.

 

[Catoninetales_Amplitude]

Now the one thing I don't like is the name...sacrificial altar for the whole ceremonial center, [. . .] I think Ceremonial center was a better fit, or if you want to go Nahuatl use the serpent wall that limited it, Coatepanlti.

I'll make sure to pass your name suggestions along to the team.

 

[mitsho]

The Aztecs were actively at war for the entirety of their existence as a civilization; I would have been surprised by anything but Militarist.

I know. I still can be disappointed personally. ;-)

And again, I would argue that you can put every affinity on every culture, so it's less a question of what is historically correct (minefield), but what you want to depict in a game (artistically).

 

[ehecatzin]

I'll make sure to pass your name suggestions along to the team.

Awesome, thanks!

.

The Aztecs themselves viewed the 'Toltecs' (natives of Tollan, or modern Tula in Mexico) as the epitome of civilized, urbanized, cultured life, and 'tolteca' in nahautl seems to have been given the meaning of 'civilized', or 'artistic'. The Aztec accounts colored most of the early thinking by Europeans about the Toltecs. Today, a lot of what was written about the 'Toltecs' by the Aztecs is regarded as nearly pure Fiction or Myth.
On the other hand, there was a large urban center at Tollan with some pretty distinctive physical attributes that was the center of some kind of urban culture. The debate now is just how influential that polity was - there are architectural similarities with Chichen Itza, for instance, but a lot of what was supposed to be 'Toltec' influence is now being ascribed, provisionally, to Teotihuacan, and Tollan may have been no more than a single city state with some trade connections (the extent of which is also under debate).
As usual in archeologically-based studies, there is an explosion of new information coming to light in recent years, so everything is subject to constant re-interpretation.

You are absolutely right in that references to Tollan by Nahuatl cronicles seem to blend Toltecs and Teotihuacan a lot, but the Toltec influence is rather palpable as you mention all the way into Chichen Itza (which isn't precisely close by) honestly is very interesting how all the important polities in central Mexico ended up proyecting their influence to the Mayan area, the Aztecs were already on the same path by taking the Soconusco , given some time we can imagine them playing politics with the remaining Mayan Kingdoms.

As a curious note, Toltec culture might go back farther that we expected, there's a great site called "La Quemada" on Zacatecas that already has a lot of the very identifiable traits of Toltec city layout and architecture, It's believed that the same events that lead to the abandonment of Teotihuacan led to this "proto Toltecs" to move in into central Mexico. Or maybe they were the first wave of northern migrations that crushed a weak Teotihuacan...we don't know yet.

Spoiler :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Quemada

 

[mitsho]

@ehecatzin As much as I love the detailed historic essay that is the post you quoted, I must point out that it wasn't me who wrote that. That would be fake news and I don't want to steal @Boris Gudenuf s Thunder here.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

No problem. If I hadn't posted it, I'm sure @ehecatzin would have gotten to it shortly.

And I agree that there is considerable discussion now about the early (pre-Maya) Mesoamerican groups. My introduction to this rat's nest was when I was frustratingly trying to find some source for Olmec city or place names (and failing miserably), and discovered that even identifying the Olmec archeological sites was uncertain because, in some cases, 'Olmec' attributes showed up in supposedly Aztec or Toltec later sites. And various Mayan cities seem to have spread influence clear across Mexico, if you believe some (I suspect a little too enthusiastic) modern archeologists.
Right now, if I had to sum up, I'd say that a lot of what we thought we knew about the extent and geographical areas of the Olmecs, Toltecs, Mayans and Aztecs is now Not So Certain and subject to revision as more information comes to light.

 

[ehecatzin]

oh, sorry, I think I got my quotes mixed up.

No problem. If I hadn't posted it, I'm sure @ehecatzin would have gotten to it shortly.

And I agree that there is considerable discussion now about the early (pre-Maya) Mesoamerican groups. My introduction to this rat's nest was when I was frustratingly trying to find some source for Olmec city or place names (and failing miserably), and discovered that even identifying the Olmec archeological sites was uncertain because, in some cases, 'Olmec' attributes showed up in supposedly Aztec or Toltec later sites. And various Mayan cities seem to have spread influence clear across Mexico, if you believe some (I suspect a little too enthusiastic) modern archeologists.
Right now, if I had to sum up, I'd say that a lot of what we thought we knew about the extent and geographical areas of the Olmecs, Toltecs, Mayans and Aztecs is now Not So Certain and subject to revision as more information comes to light.

That's something I find very interesting, I brought up La Quemada because northern and western Mexico have been getting much more attention and archeological work done on mostly unknown sites, there's way too much we don't know. Another site I absolutely love and would make me so happy to see represented in a historical game is Teuchitlan (and Teuchitlan culture as a whole) with their circular temples in a radial layout...It's so unique, maybe in the future once we know more about them.

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