Humankind - Joseon discussion thread

Hmm, I was kind of hoping they might be Aesthetes, but I suppose Scientist fits Joseon well enough. Considering we've already had the Shuyuan, I'm a little surprised they went with the Seowon as opposed to, say, the Jiphyeonjeon (granted there was only one of those--but that's never stopped Civ :p ).
 
It'd be refreshing if they went with Goryeo, Silla or ancient Korea instead but oh well. Joseon Korea Has the benefit of being so cool and exotic that repeating it in such games somehow still isn't too tiring.

I'd like to notice the fact that "EM Japan" is EDO JAPANESE but "EM Korea" is JOSEON. Interesting.
 
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Edo is a city. Joseon is a dynasty. You can’t just call the medieval Japanese culture ‘Edo’, because that’s a very specific, very geographical name. Maybe they should have called it Tokugawa if they were worried about consistency, but I haven’t gotten the impression that is a primary concern.
 
Yeah Tokugawa would have been my preference Edo Japan is a bit weird I thought perhaps they were worried that people wouldent recognise Tokugawa but they've had no qualms with using Joseon or Haudenosaunee.
 
Typical portrayal of Joseon Korea in a Western "Historical" game. I guess they are the lone Scientist in Early Modern.....
No Inca in Humankind makes me sad....they better have them in DLC.....
I guess the next faction would be the Ming...
 
Typical portrayal of Joseon Korea in a Western "Historical" game. I guess they are the lone Scientist in Early Modern.....
No Inca in Humankind makes me sad....they better have them in DLC.....
I guess the next faction would be the Ming...

Well, they have to leave something cool for expansion, besides medieval is already overloaded (that's why I advocate splitting it into early medieval and medieval). And Joseon focus on inventions, excellent naval combat and seowon is not ahistorical :)

No European EM scientist saddens me as well, but you can't have everything in the same time. I'd support EM scientific English (Bacon), French (Descartes), Italians (da Vinci). Even Scotland (few great thinkers but especially Enlightenment), Poland (Copernicus) or Denmark (Tycho Brahe) although they'd be slightly strange.

I think we will get merchant/scientist modern Koreans, and in one expansion either Silla or Goryeo with some fresh focus.
 
It's just that Joseon as the great Science Civ has been beaten to death already. So I find them rather boring. Seowon was for teaching Confucianism, not science. And I can't name a single Joseon invention (Something about a rain gauge?). I saw Wikipedia was claiming 62 major accomplishments in Science for the Joseon, but that's unsourced.

Makes me wonder if a contemporary era Korean faction will be in. I guess they would be called South Koreans, maybe.
 
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Hmm, I was kind of hoping they might be Aesthetes, but I suppose Scientist fits Joseon well enough. Considering we've already had the Shuyuan, I'm a little surprised they went with the Seowon as opposed to, say, the Jiphyeonjeon (granted there was only one of those--but that's never stopped Civ :p ).
I would be surprised if Joseon wasn't scientist honestly out of all the different Korean dynasties. Silla or Modern (South) Korea would make more sense as aesthete. Well I guess modern Korea could be science too but I wouldn't be surprised if they were cultural due to the wave of Korean culture that's spread across the world: Hallyu. :)

It's just that Joseon as the great Science Civ has been beaten to death already. So I find them rather boring. Seowon was for teaching Confucianism, not science. And I can't name a single Joseon invention (Something about a rain gauge?). I saw Wikipedia was claiming 62 major accomplishments in Science for the Joseon, but that's unsourced.

Makes me wonder if a contemporary era Korean faction will be in. I guess they would be called South Koreans, maybe.
Wasn't the Hwacha invented in the Joseon period?
There's always the possibility that the Seowon is for culture just like the Scientific Greeks have a culture emblematic quarter. Or is it called influence in this game?
 
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And Joseon focus on inventions, excellent naval combat and seowon is not ahistorical :)
It most definitely is. However, it's also the only thing about its history that Korea exports to the western world and unless you really care about the area, it's not like any random person asked on the street could tell.
Joseon didn't focus on inventions. Joseon dynasty had a single king who actually liked science. Reducing all of Joseon to this one individual is kind of like reducing all of Rome to good ol' Nero, as interesting as that may sound.
Joseon navy was garbage (talking on Asian terms), it won a war against Japan because the Japanese navy at the time was even more garbage. Navy was not a strong point of this part of the world very much until Japanese kicked Royal Navy's ass (and the ensuing naval war with the Allies where the connection between Japan and seamanship in games most likely originates from).
And Seowon, as Guandao already noted, were not scientific institutions, but confucian ones. Though I already talked about that one before on here.

All in all, I agree with Zaarin that Aesthete (with maybe a secondary scientific focus) would fit the Joseon Dynasty much, much better as they did have an actual reputation for exporting high class confucian culture (go figure), unique porcelain and such. After the Japanese retreated, they brought valuable Koreans with them. They did not take "scientists", they did not take seamen, they took artisans who served to establish a distinct Edo period type of roof tiles, they established the very first domestic Japanese porcelain workshop and things like that. They also brought home a book about gunpowder weaponry (Shenqipu)... which was issued by the Ming to the Joseon troops as they were deemed inexperienced with these weapons compared to their Chinese allies and Japanese adversaries. :)

So yeah. I won't complain because it's an established Civ tradition (and likely game balance played a role since Japan already took the aesthete focus) and having Joseon, even if mostly misrepresented, is still better than not having any Koreans at all. But there is big room for improvements. At least we might get very nice look into the armor and equipment of the late-Ming? Joseon era with their generic units.
 
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It's just that Joseon as the great Science Civ has been beaten to death already. So I find them rather boring. Seowon was for teaching Confucianism, not science. And I can't name a single Joseon invention (Something about a rain gauge?). I saw Wikipedia was claiming 62 major accomplishments in Science for the Joseon, but that's unsourced.

Makes me wonder if a contemporary era Korean faction will be in. I guess they would be called South Koreans, maybe.

It most definitely is. However, it's also the only thing about its history that Korea exports to the western world and unless you really care about the area, it's not like any random person asked on the street could tell.
Joseon didn't focus on inventions. Joseon dynasty had a single king who actually liked science. Reducing all of Joseon to this one individual is kind of like reducing all of Rome to good ol' Nero, as interesting as that may sound.
Joseon navy was garbage (talking on Asian terms), it won a war against Japan because the Japanese navy at the time was even more garbage. Navy was not a strong point of this part of the world very much until Japanese kicked Royal Navy's ass (and the ensuing naval war with the Allies where the connection between Japan and seamanship in games most likely originates from).
And Seowon, as Guandao already noted, were not scientific institutions, but confucian ones. Though I already talked about that one before on here.

All in all, I agree with Zaarin that Aesthete (with maybe a secondary scientific focus) would fit the Joseon Dynasty much, much better as they did have an actual reputation for exporting high class confucian culture (go figure), unique porcelain and such. After the Japanese retreated, they brought valuable Koreans with them. They did not take "scientists", they did not take seamen, they took artisans who served to establish a distinct Edo period type of roof tiles, they established the very first domestic Japanese porcelain workshop and things like that. They also brought home a book about gunpowder weaponry (Shenqipu)... which was issued by the Ming to the Joseon troops as they were deemed inexperienced with these weapons compared to their Chinese allies and Japanese adversaries. :)

So yeah. I won't complain because it's an established Civ tradition (and likely game balance played a role since Japan already took the aesthete focus) and having Joseon, even if mostly misrepresented, is still better than not having any Koreans at all. But there is big room for improvements. At least we might get very nice look into the armor and equipment of the late-Ming? Joseon era with their generic units.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_science_and_technology_in_Korea
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silhak
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jang_Yeong-sil
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choi_Seok-jeong
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Korean_inventions_and_discoveries
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hangul

I think these are enough - there were enough practical inventions, individual inventors, mathematics level of hard sciences and naturalist schools of philosophy to give Koreans scientific affinity. If we don't want to give these people Scientist affinity then I think we have too high standards of what science is to introduce them to the popular video game.

I'd much rather give scientist affinity to pre modern Koreans than to Classical Romans, who had practical technical solutions but were completely useless in theoretical outlooks, so much that literally we don't know of any Latin mathematicians of that era (this changed by late antiquity with the rise of Christian philosophy). Compared to that, Koreans have inventions but also the idea of progress, abstract sciences, pro - science philosophical schools and at least some rulers.

That's as much justification as you need to give a nation some affinity (sure, maybe others fit even better but scientific Joseon is simply... cool).
 
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That's as much justification as you need to give a nation some affinity (sure, maybe others fit even better but scientific Joseon is simply... cool).

I mean, as long as it doesn't offend anyone, there's no harm in doing it. It's just a weird choice from the standpoint of that cultural area. Kinda as if you took Austria-Hungary and made it the industrial Scientific civ because Nikola Tesla or Von Neumann were from there as well as people who patented the first modern-ish parachute, radio communications, etc. It's not wrong, but there are all sorts of possible takes on it (other than Civ, no historical game makes the connection, AoE, Empire Earth, Rise of Nations, Empires At Dawn,...) and it would be a shame to pigeonhole them into that role in the same way as pigeonholing India into a nuclear powerhouse and nothing else.
 
I mean, as long as it doesn't offend anyone, there's no harm in doing it. It's just a weird choice from the standpoint of that cultural area. Kinda as if you took Austria-Hungary and made it the industrial Scientific civ because Nikola Tesla or Von Neumann were from there as well as people who patented the first modern-ish parachute, radio communications, etc. It's not wrong, but there are all sorts of possible takes on it (other than Civ, no historical game makes the connection, AoE, Empire Earth, Rise of Nations, Empires At Dawn,...) and it would be a shame to pigeonhole them into that role in the same way as pigeonholing India into a nuclear powerhouse and nothing else.
Considering that they call it Joseon, and not just Korea, I could see a modern Korea becoming Aesthete to differentiate the two.
 
It'd be refreshing if they went with Goryeo, Silla or ancient Korea instead but oh well. Joseon Korea Has the benefit of being so cool and exotic that repeating it in such games somehow still isn't too tiring.

I'd like to notice the fact that "EM Japan" is EDO JAPANESE but "EM Korea" is JOSEON. Interesting.
I'm hoping for Silla in DLC.

I would be surprised if Joseon wasn't scientist honestly out of all the different Korean dynasties. Silla or Modern (South) Korea would make more sense as aesthete. Well I guess modern Korea could be science too but I wouldn't be surprised if they were cultural due to the wave of Korean culture that's spread across the world: Hallyu. :)
Like I said, it suits Joseon.
 
Edo is a city. Joseon is a dynasty. You can’t just call the medieval Japanese culture ‘Edo’, because that’s a very specific, very geographical name. Maybe they should have called it Tokugawa if they were worried about consistency, but I haven’t gotten the impression that is a primary concern.

I mean calling the culture Tokugawa isn’t great either, as that’s the name of the ruling clan, not the state, or the people. Japan was Japan (well Nippon/Nihon) in this time period. This is just going to continue to be a problem with most of the modern nation states if we want to represent them in multiple eras.

Joseon is somewhat different as it was actually the name of the state (in fact it remains so in North Korea).

As for their science focus, the trope is too entrenched now for any strategy game developer to avoid! It’s not the worst fit in the world, but it’s not particularly interesting.
 
Pretty happy with this implementation! Another gorgeous culture card artwork too!
 
Seowon was for teaching Confucianism, not scienc

Something that we learned from the past cultures when seeing the actual implementation is that they are not "one-note". So even if their affinity is scientific, the Seowon could definitely be "aesthete and religious", providing influence and faith. The description focuses on Confucianism and training kingdom officials.
 
Something that we learned from the past cultures when seeing the actual implementation is that they are not "one-note". So even if their affinity is scientific, the Seowon could definitely be "aesthete and religious", providing influence and faith. The description focuses on Confucianism and training kingdom officials.
Scientist mean your goal is to focus on science but I doubt their emblimatic unit have something to directly do with science and that is maybe true for their emblimatic quarter. Theoretically a culture could have an affinity that really have nothing to do with the emblimatic stuff but I suspect that would be rare or not in the game at all because in such case you would probably not build much emblimatic stuff or ignore your affinity.
 
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