Humankind - Mongols discussion thread

[Eagle Pursuit]

https://twitter.com/humankindgame/status/1270392774601433088?s=19

Emblematic unit: Mongol Horde
Emblematic Quarter: Orda

Classification: Militarist

 

[Siptah]

The Mongols, wielding a unit and quarter by the same name...

No real surprises there, I was torn between Militarist and Expansionist. Nice culture card, very evocative of the beauty that is Mongolia. That river seems awfully tamed though There's no way anyone would settle in this spot near a natural river of this region, not even nomads.

Looking forward to see what the emblematics actually do in this case. The Horde might be a game changer in the tactical battles.

 

[CivLuvah]

So basically their uniques have the same names as the Huns. But will each fo their special mechanics be different?

 

[conorbebe]

Not the most inspired design I’ve ever seen... Just looks like a clone of the Huns, which may make sense historically but isn’t very interesting from a gameplay perspective.

And no kheshig?! I would have called the Orda something else too, like “Royal Court”, to better distinguish it from the Hunnic Ordu.

 

[Guandao]

Meh, it's a typical design. The name similarities to the Huns makes me wish that the Huns were never chosen for Humankind. We honestly don't know too much about what the Huns called their soldiers, etc.

 

[FinalDoomsday]

Happy with this and glad they got in the base game, art is all looking great too looking forward to seeing a battle with these guys.

I think its right to have a horse nomad culture in classical and medieval so I dont mind the similarities.

 

[Jkchart]

It's Mongols! I think they should definitely change the names of the uniques though...otherwise looks good to me. Love that culture card art.

 

[need my speed]

I don't understand why these names were chosen. Fully agreed with that these are not distinctive or evocative; 'Mongol Horde' is as much a name as 'English Archer' or 'French Horseman' would be, which is obviously bad, and 'Ordu' is a clone of the Hun emblematic quarter. Really odd.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Well, let's face it: if you're looking for a Successful Medieval Militarist, the Mongols are in a class by themselves historically.
However, one or two things about the nomenclature chosen, as others have noticed.

"Horde" is a Turkic word, not Mongol at all. The perfectly Mongolian word that could have been used would be Tuman, which indicated a unit of 10,000 warriors, and so certainly evokes the image of a Horde.
Also, each Tuman had its own standard and title, which would be a nice touch for 'personalizing' your Mongolian units.

As for the Orda or Ordo, It's related to the Turkic word for 'camp' - orda, but in Mongolian it usually means 'palace' - "place of the ruler', which I suppose makes it Special enough to be Emblematic. It is also related to the Turkic word Horde, as in a large group of people, not necessarily warriors, so, again, could be used for a group settled in a city.
Just to note, though, that the traditional Mongolian tent dwelling is the ger, the Mongolian version of the Turkic yurt, and Ger would have been a very 'emblematic' term for a 'semi-settled' nomadic District/Quarter in a city.

Oh well, the real question is how they are going to differentiate the Mongol Faction from the Hun Faction besides, presumably, better Combat Factors for the Mongolian Horde versus the Hunnic Horde. I really hope they have some mechanism that replicates the Mongols' much better integration of other groups into their Empire and so much better stability of their Empire: the Huns were notoriously ripped to pieces by their own subordinates as soon as they faltered, while the various Mongolian and Mongolian Successor Factions lasted centuries.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I have the same issues as others have mentioned.
Ger would have been a better word for the emblematic quarter to use to distinguish it from the Huns.
As for the name Mongol Horde, I guess it would be fine if they would distinguish some kind of nomadic horde mechanism. The term kheshig is Mongolian but I'm not sure that's how to accurately describe the horse archers even though that's how it's always been portrayed in the Civ games.

 

[Siptah]

Kheshig wouldn‘t really fit, as they weren‘t The mobile troops for the battlefield. They would probably get a bonus for defending the capital or something similar, which doesn’t really feel appropriate for the mongols.

As for the names, I think the Mongol Horde is quite an iconic name. I‘d rather change the hunnic names...

 

[Jkchart]

Well, let's face it: if you're looking for a Successful Medieval Militarist, the Mongols are in a class by themselves historically.
However, one or two things about the nomenclature chosen, as others have noticed.

"Horde" is a Turkic word, not Mongol at all. The perfectly Mongolian word that could have been used would be Tuman, which indicated a unit of 10,000 warriors, and so certainly evokes the image of a Horde.
Also, each Tuman had its own standard and title, which would be a nice touch for 'personalizing' your Mongolian units.

As for the Orda or Ordo, It's related to the Turkic word for 'camp' - orda, but in Mongolian it usually means 'palace' - "place of the ruler', which I suppose makes it Special enough to be Emblematic. It is also related to the Turkic word Horde, as in a large group of people, not necessarily warriors, so, again, could be used for a group settled in a city.
Just to note, though, that the traditional Mongolian tent dwelling is the ger, the Mongolian version of the Turkic yurt, and Ger would have been a very 'emblematic' term for a 'semi-settled' nomadic District/Quarter in a city.

Oh well, the real question is how they are going to differentiate the Mongol Faction from the Hun Faction besides, presumably, better Combat Factors for the Mongolian Horde versus the Hunnic Horde. I really hope they have some mechanism that replicates the Mongols' much better integration of other groups into their Empire and so much better stability of their Empire: the Huns were notoriously ripped to pieces by their own subordinates as soon as they faltered, while the various Mongolian and Mongolian Successor Factions lasted centuries.

This is excellent. I came across Tumen myself, and that might be a nice replacement word instead of "Mongol Horde".

Same for what you say on Ordo vs. Ger - it makes it look more distinct from the Huns, so I hope they can give it that rename treatment. I obviously have no problem with the actual emblematics, just the jarringly similar nomenclature to the Huns should be eliminated.

 

[notNamed]

The whole Horde/orda thing is going to end up looking pretty funny in the Russian version. G. Orda, Ordu, M. Orda, Orda.
That aside, Tümen is just a number (10,000) and we've already had Legionnaires and Centurions (100) rejected because of the same reason.

 

[Jkchart]

The whole Horde/orda thing is going to end up looking pretty funny in the Russian version. G. Orda, Ordu, M. Orda, Orda.
That aside, Tümen is just a number (10,000) and we've already had Legionnaires and Centurions (100) rejected because of the same reason.

True, but Tumen still represents an actual Mongolian military unit, as did the Legionnaires and Centurions so it's a bit silly to make that a reason to reject the name.

But it's the devs' game, and I won't let nomenclature stop me from purchasing/playing. Names are a small thing to me. EDIT: it just would have been nice to have a bit more differentiation between Hun and Mongol uniques' names.

 

[Catoninetales_Amplitude]

We're not using either "ger" or "yurt" because both refer primarily to a tent rather than an entire camp.
We considered both Keshig and Tumen, but in the end we settled on "Horde" to highlight certain shared gameplay features of the two units. The same is true of the Orda and Ordu.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

We're not using either "ger" or "yurt" because both refer primarily to a tent rather than an entire camp.
We considered both Keshig and Tumen, but in the end we settled on "Horde" to highlight certain shared gameplay features of the two units. The same is true of the Orda and Ordu.

"Certain shared gameplay features" - I actually like that, because as several recent academic studies have shown, there was a lot of similarity among the various 'horse archer' cultures of Central Asia from 700 BCE to 1300 CE, including their basic military forces, emphasis on trade with the neighboring 'settled' cultures, and facilitation of trade between their neighbors as the Preeminent "Middlemen" of east-west trade (including religious spread of both Islam and Buddhism).

One of the problems 4X Historical games have had in the past is differentiating between such cultures/groups, because of their similarities. You have to do some serious and in-depth research to find defining individual characteristics that don't have echos and counterparts in other groups. Admitting the similarities and then building variations on them is a much better way to go, IMHO.

 

[Jkchart]

We're not using either "ger" or "yurt" because both refer primarily to a tent rather than an entire camp.
We considered both Keshig and Tumen, but in the end we settled on "Horde" to highlight certain shared gameplay features of the two units. The same is true of the Orda and Ordu.

you know what, this is an entirely fair response and I appreciate the information!

 

[riddleofsteel]

I wonder how they differ at all from the Huns.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I wonder how they differ at all from the Huns.

Pure speculation here - at least until they reveal more of the combat mechanics - but here are some historically-based possibilities:
1. As stated above, more stability/loyalty, because the Mongols managed to endure centuries longer than the Huns
2. Larger Army sizes, to represent the far better Command and Control of the Mongol armies compared to their predecessors (ALL their nomadic predecessors, apparently)
3. Better ability to include units from conquered Factions or Minor Factions, which would be representative of the fact that Mongol armies included Chinese Siege Engineers and gunpowder-users as well as mounted units from other Central Asian factions they had conquered. The Hun's own 'subordinates' as mentioned previously, turned on them as soon as they could, whereas the Mongol subordinates for the most part stayed loyal.
4. Possible ability to exchange some of their own Emblematics for those of a conquered Faction, as the Mongols did when they settled down and became the Yuan Dynasty in China, the Golden or Great Horde in southern Russia, or the basis for the Timurids or Gazhnavids. I think this would be way OP, though, so it's a real Long Shot.

 

[Siptah]

There needs to be some kind of significant difference between these consecutively choosable cultures, otherwise you would transcend as the Huns for the extra fame. So I‘m sure that there is some incentive to choose the Mongols because they offer something different.