Humankind - Norsemen discussion thread

[Eagle Pursuit]

https://twitter.com/humankindgame/status/1271102453954555905?s=19

Emblematic unit: Langskip
Emblematic Quarter: Naust

Classification: Militarist

 

[SupremacyKing2]

I love these civ reveals but I wish we got details on the actual bonuses that the units and buildings give.

 

[pineappledan]

Those Vikingr look to be raiding a citadel, rather than a remote monastery/abbey.

RIP

 

[CivLuvah]

Thank goodness they used "Norsemen" instead of "Vikings"

 

[Krajzen]

Thank goodness they used "Norsemen" instead of "Vikings"

"Norse" may be my favorite take on the subject. "Vikings" is a silly term to use, but I have also disliked civ's decision to make "medieval viking militarist civ" specifically "Denmark/Norway".

Naming them "Norse" also allows you to reuse Denmark/Norway is another era, although that'd be far more useful if the game had "Dark Ages/Early Medieval/Migration Age" separate from "Medieval Age". Then you could make Norse, representing pagan, agressive Vikings, and for example medieval Christian Denmark representing mercantile thalassocracy.

I have also managed to guess focus correctly once again! Can't wait to see a disastrous error ending this streak.

So, remaining cultures are Teutons, Umayyads and Aztecs, I guess. IMO expansionist, scientific, militarist.

 

[conorbebe]

Again with the weird and inconsistent nomenclature. We got the Persians and the Celts because they were more terms recognisable than the Achaemenids and the Gauls, but simultaneously they go with “Norsemen” over Vikings??

For the Ghanaians they go with the generic and ambiguous “Luxuries Market”, while also deeming the word “Longship” not specific enough?

Strange, very strange. “Norsemen” just sounds odd and out of place to me. Just calling them the Norse would be a lot better in my opinion.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Well, this was a surprise.
I was just talking earlier in another Civ thread about how I would rather go with the name Norse than Vikings, though here they use the term Norseman.

 

[Jkchart]

I like this a lot. This is probably how I would go if designing a Viking/Norse culture myself.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I'm by no means knowledgeable about Scandinavian linguistics in the Middle Ages, but I'm pretty sure they did not call themselves 'Norsemen'. That term, I believe, is from their victims in the British Isles, who consistently referred to the raiders as Norsemen or Northmen, as the contemporary prayer went:

"From the Fury of the Northmen, Lord God deliver Us!"

Norsemen also ignores the 'other two-thirds' of the Scandinavian influence, Denmark and Sweden - the latter especially to the east, since they provided the 'Rus' who remade Slavic Russia and opened up the riverine trade all the way to Astrakhan and Constantinople. Would have loved to see that aspect of the 'Northmen' in the game . . .

 

[Zaarin]

Again with the weird and inconsistent nomenclature. We got the Persians and the Celts because they were more terms recognisable than the Achaemenids and the Gauls, but simultaneously they go with “Norsemen” over Vikings??

I think most audiences are educated enough by this point to recognize the term "Norse," even if they're not aware that the word "Viking" simply means "Medieval Scandinavian pirate."

I'm by no means knowledgeable about Scandinavian linguistics in the Middle Ages, but I'm pretty sure they did not call themselves 'Norsemen'.

They did call themselves Nor(n)sk, but it specifically referred to people from Norway. The term Norse comes to English indirectly via Dutch; coming straight from Old English we'd have Northish or some such.

 

[ButtBillionaire]

Medieval Scandinavians did indeed not collectively refer to themselves by anything equivalent to "Norsemen," and did distinguish between each other. I've read a few Icelanders' sagas, and if someone not from Iceland appeared, it was made known. Norwegians would be referred to as "eastmen" by the Icelandic authors, for example. I believe that in addition to Danes, Norwegians and Swedes, there were also two Germanic peoples in modern-day Sweden who were considered separate from the aforementioned three: Geats, who lived in southern Sweden, and Gutes, who lived on the island of Gotland.

On another note, I always found it interesting that to this day, all North Germanic languages use words that could be translated literally to "northmen" to refer to Norwegians: nordmenn in Norwegian, nordmænd in Danish, norrmän in Swedish, and norðmenn in Icelandic and Faroese.

 

[Zaarin]

Geats, who lived in southern Sweden, and Gutes, who lived on the island of Gotland.

And the interesting thing about these terms is that they're both cognate with "Goths." (Although the Geats are probably most famous among English-speakers for being Beowulf's people.)

 

[Catoninetales_Amplitude]

I'm by no means knowledgeable about Scandinavian linguistics in the Middle Ages, but I'm pretty sure they did not call themselves 'Norsemen'. That term, I believe, is from their victims in the British Isles, who consistently referred to the raiders as Norsemen or Northmen, as the contemporary prayer went:

"From the Fury of the Northmen, Lord God deliver Us!"

Norsemen also ignores the 'other two-thirds' of the Scandinavian influence, Denmark and Sweden - the latter especially to the east, since they provided the 'Rus' who remade Slavic Russia and opened up the riverine trade all the way to Astrakhan and Constantinople. Would have loved to see that aspect of the 'Northmen' in the game . . .

No, they probably did not call themselves Norsemen, but as far as I know neither did the Celts call themselves keltoi (and Persia was also a name coined by the Greeks, no?).
However, by using the name outsiders gave to them, we are referring to the entire sphere of people who spoke Old Norse before the Christianization, which does include large parts of Sweden and Denmark (both of whom, if I recall correctly, were involved in raiding the British Isles and many other parts of Europe).
We're not calling them "Vikings" because that refers to a "profession" more than a people: Somebody who sails abroad in search of adventure and riches. The term existed in Old Norse both as a noun (víkingr, the person traveling for adventure) and a verb (víking, to travel or participate in one of these adventures).

 

[Zaarin]

as far as I know neither did the Celts call themselves keltoi (and Persia was also a name coined by the Greeks, no?).

A couple corrections here. While anything Caesar said should be taken with a mountain of salt, he did claim that the Gauls called themselves Celtae. As for Persia, that's just the Hellenization of Old Persian Parsa, a descendant of which also gives us "Farsi."

 

[Catoninetales_Amplitude]

A couple corrections here. While anything Caesar said should be taken with a mountain of salt, he did claim that the Gauls called themselves Celtae. As for Persia, that's just the Hellenization of Old Persian Parsa, a descendant of which also gives us "Farsi."

Point taken. I am by no means a specialist on the etymology of the names of places and peoples.
Still, I think the general point I was trying to make is fairly clear: Sometimes, we may be using exonyms.

 

[Guandao]

I'm not surprised the Norsemen are in the game. I was pleasantly surprised they aren't called Vikings.

 

[Gwydden]

I'm glad that they're not called Vikings, even gladder that they got longships instead of berserkers... but I didn't know we'd be getting our first monogender civilization. Why not just Norse?

 

[Zaarin]

I didn't know we'd be getting our first monogender civilization.

You understand, of course, that Germanic "man" means "person" and that the "adult male" sense only developed in the past few hundred years, right? "Norse" would have been fine, but "Norsemen" is still not a gendered term.

 

[Gwydden]

You understand, of course, that Germanic "man" means "person" and that the "adult male" sense only developed in the past few hundred years, right?

Sure, but the game's not releasing in 1020. "Norsemen" is gendered today, which is my concern. I'd also object to the game being called Mankind even if that wasn't originally meant to be a gendered term.

 

[Zaarin]

Sure, but the game's not releasing in 1020. "Norsemen" is gendered today, which is my concern. I'd also object to the game being called Mankind even if that wasn't originally meant to be a gendered term.

It's not being released in 1020, but it is talking about an entity that existed in 1020. IMO people are too sensitive about "gendered terminology"; in this case, "Norsemen" isn't gendered. For what it's worth, I also think they should clip it to "Norse," but only because "Norsemen" is longer without being any more specific.