[GS] Hungary Discussion Thread

[bite]

If Hungary's Black Army forms an army, Matthias Corvinus would have a Black Army Army.

After all, his surname means "of the crow" and his Black Army Army is a murder of crows that will murder anyone in their path.

I would not be surprised if there is an achievement for that

 

[Cerilis]

Talking about armies, can you actually form a corps out of a levied unit and one of your own?

 

[warpyg]

Talking about armies, can you actually form a corps out of a levied unit and one of your own?

No, i don't think so. You can't even rename a levied unit when it gets a promotion

 

[Sostratus]

Did anyone else notice that the upgrade from Black Army to Hussar required some 6 niter- but no horses? So perhaps they are going to be changing the rule about UUs not ever needing resources. I would be shocked if the hussar needed niter and cavalry units remained with horses! Also very sneaky: the hussar has +3 str over the current cavalry unit. Did they call that out? I would chalk it up to oversight, although its possible they buffed the cavalry unit. The russian cossack has +5 str over a regular cavalry, for reference.

 

[Larsenex]

Great music at the end. I love these first look videos!

 

[Lord Lakely]

Did anyone else notice that the upgrade from Black Army to Hussar required some 6 niter- but no horses? So perhaps they are going to be changing the rule about UUs not ever needing resources. I would be shocked if the hussar needed niter and cavalry units remained with horses! Also very sneaky: the hussar has +3 str over the current cavalry unit. Did they call that out? I would chalk it up to oversight, although its possible they buffed the cavalry unit. The russian cossack has +5 str over a regular cavalry, for reference.

The Black Army uses a melee weapon, while the Huszar has a gun. The 6 Nitre is supposed to represent the transition from one UU to another. (and since both ride on horseback, there's no need to pay "horses" to facilitate the upgrade )

Interesting that UUs seem to require strategic resources now...

 

[DeepKing]

Did anyone else notice that the upgrade from Black Army to Hussar required some 6 niter- but no horses? So perhaps they are going to be changing the rule about UUs not ever needing resources. I would be shocked if the hussar needed niter and cavalry units remained with horses! Also very sneaky: the hussar has +3 str over the current cavalry unit. Did they call that out? I would chalk it up to oversight, although its possible they buffed the cavalry unit. The russian cossack has +5 str over a regular cavalry, for reference.

Hussar also gets a modifier for alliances.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

I have a strong feeling that Pearls of the Danube will be nerfed to be only a +25% upgrade, but even that would be very strong in getting a city up and running, as noted being one of the rare bonuses that apply to buildings and not just districts.

I think you are right about the 25% nerf.

I don't anticipate any need for a nerf. As it is, from a pure power perspective, Hungary is likely third tier to middling at best.

The city state levying looks like a fun mechanic, but Hungary gets no bonuses to gaining Suzerainship, and no bonus to the cost of levying. They do get a bonus to help them retain Suzerainship, but that doesn't guarantee those troops don't get called away right when you need them. Other than the city state bonus, their only combat bonus has to wait until alliances become a thing, and their uniques come later than some of the true warmongering powers. Good for domination, sure, but as good as the top warmongers? I don't think so.

The Thermal Bath seems like a good choice to me, but it doesn't come until Natural History. In some rare situations, it's not even as good as the Zoo it replaces. You're not going to win the game thanks to Thermal Baths.

That leaves the discount to districts and buildings along the opposite of a river. This helps jump start Hungary with their first district of choice (except Encampment). Over the long term, though, Holy Sites and Campuses in particular will likely need to be placed with somewhat fewer adjacency bonuses than they otherwise would if you paid full price. It appears that the developers are trying to increase the number of turns before the game is won, and the longer the game goes, the more those lost bonuses add up. Plus, rivers flood in GS. Depending on how often and how damaging those floods are, those half price districts and buildings may be off line for significant portions of the game.

Maybe I'm wrong and the half price districts and buildings let Hungary steamroll enough that their lower yields over time don't matter, but I'm inclined to think that the civs with the pure half price districts that can be placed in their ideal location (which is not on rivers as of GS) remain more powerful than Hungary's Pearl of the Danube bonus.

All in all, I think it's a good civ design as is.

Also, I just realized they have both a UD and a UB and two UUs. Which means only one UU and one UD/UI/UB per remaining civ, and none of either for the alternate leader. Unless I have my count off. EDIT: Well I had something off

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

It just occurred to me that Matthias looks like Christopher Walken circa 1990s with a mullet.

 

[BarbarianHunter]

I don't anticipate any need for a nerf. As it is, from a pure power perspective, Hungary is likely third tier to middling at best.

I hope you're right. I like the way the civ is presented and look forward to actually playing it. +50% production to a market+bank and/or ampitheatre+art museum seems an attractive offering. The detour to banking and +50% to the market/bank buildings then 6 envoys in a gold CS (Zanzibar/Muscat) seems like a powerful synergy relative to levying units, their Black Army UU, and long running wars. The enhanced entertainment district can keep the war weariness at bay for extremely long running wars.

 

[acluewithout]

Did anyone else notice that the upgrade from Black Army to Hussar required some 6 niter- but no horses? So perhaps they are going to be changing the rule about UUs not ever needing resources. I would be shocked if the hussar needed niter and cavalry units remained with horses! Also very sneaky: the hussar has +3 str over the current cavalry unit. Did they call that out? I would chalk it up to oversight, although its possible they buffed the cavalry unit. The russian cossack has +5 str over a regular cavalry, for reference.

Needing resources for UUs would be a huge change. Gulp.

 

[Inhalaattori]

Did anyone else notice that the upgrade from Black Army to Hussar required some 6 niter- but no horses? So perhaps they are going to be changing the rule about UUs not ever needing resources. I would be shocked if the hussar needed niter and cavalry units remained with horses! Also very sneaky: the hussar has +3 str over the current cavalry unit. Did they call that out? I would chalk it up to oversight, although its possible they buffed the cavalry unit. The russian cossack has +5 str over a regular cavalry, for reference.

The unit already has horses, but doesnt have firearms like the hussar. It makes perfect sense that the unit needs only niter when upgrading.

I wouldnt mind them changing it so that also UUs need resources. Reason being that based on the trailer its easy to get a lot of these resources. Strategic resources are probably much less rare than they were before. So in reality most times you can build your unique units, but just not endless number of them.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I

Also, I just realized they have both a UD and a UB and two UUs. Which means only one UU and one UD/UI/UB per remaining civ, and none of either for the alternate leader. Unless I have my count off.

There is no UD that I am aware of. They just get the Thermal Bath. But your right as no new unit for the alt leader but some Civ will be getting two infrastructure in the future and it could be from the new alt leader.

 

[Cagarustus]

I think Hungary’s design overall is good. They won’t be the first civ I play after release but I will attempt to play them.

 

[Craig_Sutter]

Do you think the +2 envoys would occur each time a particular city state is levied, or would it be one time only per city state?

 

[thecrazyscot]

I think some in this thread are overestimating the production bonus - keep in mind that a bonus of +50% does not mean that the district is built twice as fast (or to put it another way is half the cost).

Let's say you have 10 production and are building a district which costs 100 production. Under normal circumstances that would take 10 turns (100 / 10 = 10).
Hungary has a +50% bonus, so is generating 15 production per turn. It would take Hungary 7 turns to build the same district (100 / 15 = 6.67).

So, the bonus is good, but it's not in any way OP. Especially when you take into account that there are some very specific criteria which must be met in order to gain the bonus.

 

[Sostratus]

So, the bonus is good, but it's not in any way OP. Especially when you take into account that there are some very specific criteria which must be met in order to gain the bonus.

I can see it mostly being a CH bonus, the occasional TS or HS. The fact that it works on the buildings too is what I find the most interesting- buildings are expensive!

With the boost to river tiles from flooding i can see it not being as good as now- don't want to sacrifice that premium real estate for a few turns of output. Although 1/3 discount does add up over time- I see can hungarian river market rush into levied armies being a popular strat!

 

[Franticfox]

After running through this topic:

- first baths were installed by the Romans actually
- yea, the other iteration would have been the cultural one but this is very interesting, I like that the black army is represented (first professional standing army in Europe) Competing with the Germans its a nice addon, and the diplomatic-conquerer style is very fit historically (Yet I really miss the already mentioned Bibliotheca Corviniana )
- here is a more appropriate version of Liszt's work

(the pianist, György Cziffra, is a well known virtuoso. His story is that after the Soviets broke his hands He learnt to play on this level AGAIN.)
- Matthias was elected as king when He was 14, the nobles and especially the regent was looking for an easily-could-be-controlled king, Matthias tricked His regent to go for an all-around diplomatic visit and grabbed the control in His hands 2 weeks after the election and never gave upon it after (He restituted the central power of the king through his reign, which was strongly suppressed before)
- His father may have an even more exciting life, here is this very readable script of it: http://www.badassoftheweek.com/hunyadi.html

+1: His Surname is Hunyadi originally, Corvinus comes from the raven on His family's banner. There is a story about the ring in the beak of the bird:
Holy Roman Emperor and King of Hungary Sigismund of Luxemburg was known about His many love affairs. They said John Hunyadi, Mathias' father was one of His offsprings and He gave the ring to the mother of János (John). But a raven cathed it and it had to be captured to get the ring back.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I can see it mostly being a CH bonus, the occasional TS or HS. The fact that it works on the buildings too is what I find the most interesting- buildings are expensive!

With the boost to river tiles from flooding i can see it not being as good as now- don't want to sacrifice that premium real estate for a few turns of output. Although 1/3 discount does add up over time- I see can hungarian river market rush into levied armies being a popular strat!

I don't anticipate playing Hungary often, but I think the bonus would work well for my CC/CH/TS triangles.

 

[rlw33]

Here's a big one: will the AI have been taught not to conquer city states when playing as Hungary?

What a great question. This never occured to me.

Surely they would?...