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What? And leave foreigners decide what happens in our country?

Madness. Madness, I tell ya!

Yes yes, very droll. Not that we're short of the real thing.

*sigh*

And I guess its not a surprise that someone belonging to a social group that is most cushioned from consequences believes their speech should be protected, while the the rights of others are open to discussion.
 
I didn't say a word about that people should not be offended about anything.

I know you've flounced already but didn't you say the opposite in your immediately previous posts?

Insults however are always taken, never given. Whatever is said to you, YOU are the one to decide whether you get insulted by it or not.

And even then yes, it's just an opinion. If you get intimidated by an opinion that's your problem, not the problem of the speaker.

Seem difficult to reconcile to me. Perhaps you are uncertain about what you really believe? And yet it is obviously false that words only hold insult and intimidation in the ears of the listeners. They most definitely leave the mouths of the speakers with intent.
 
I'm not even sure why free speech is supposedly an absolute unlimited good anyway. Why shouldn't freedom of speech end where the full citizenship of another human being begins?
Strike "citizenship" and replace with "enfranchisement" if you must. Possibly, political and legal equality, de jure and de facto, with other long term residents.
The point of having such a thing as free speech, is that it is only really necessary to have free speech when stating something that someone else finds offensive.

The problem with limiting free speech, is that I've never heard a definition of a limitation which can't be interpreted to stop necessary criticism. Except if you will, the limitation on threatening speech, but that has more to do with protecting people from intimidation, than to stop the speech itself.

As such I find it much better to simply allow free speech, and to accept that there are and will be statements that I, or anyone else, will find offensive.
 
The point of having such a thing as free speech, is that it is only really necessary to have free speech when stating something that someone else finds offensive.

This doesn't feel just quite right to me. Like, a bit too broad perhaps. How about this instead:

The point of having such a thing as free speech, is that it is only really necessary to have free speech when stating something that THE GOVERNMENT finds offensive.

That I think is the heart of it.

The problem with limiting free speech, is that I've never heard a definition of a limitation which can't be interpreted to stop necessary criticism. Except if you will, the limitation on threatening speech, but that has more to do with protecting people from intimidation, than to stop the speech itself.

As such I find it much better to simply allow free speech, and to accept that there are and will be statements that I, or anyone else, will find offensive.

Yeah, sure, I'd sign up to that. But I think that largely describes the status quo (where geographically appropriate) and that this is not under threat (except where it is).

To me, it looks like certain elements are taking the concept of "free speech" and trying to confuse it to mean "speech that is free from criticism".

What they have is already the ability to say damn near any fool thing they wish. What they want is the ability to say offensive, defamatory etc things without kicking up a twitterstorm. They do this by making the absurd claim that their opponents are easily offended wusses whos criticism of their speech constitutes an infringement of their political right to free speech.

So its this ridiculous playground rules concept of free speech that they advance to protect themselves, often in the same breath as they complain about hate speech laws. Without irony.
 
Senethro said:
To me, it looks like certain elements are taking the concept of "free speech" and trying to confuse it to mean "speech that is free from criticism".
^ This.

I mean, it's pretty damn simple. Free speech doesn't mean you say whatever you want at all times with no consequences. It just...doesn't.

This is the equivalent of someone crying that the kids aren't playing with him anymore because all he does is call them nasty names.

And at least two posters have come right out and said that news outlets choosing not to gratuitously insult Muslims is a grave threat to free speech.

The fact is whether you like it or not words have power and people need to be careful what they say, because it can have a huge effect on others and simply putting that on your listeners is a childish avoidance of responsibility.
 
Oh, speech can be criticised. I'll go even further actually, and say that all speech should be criticised!

As such, I have no problem with people criticising the statements of others. Twitterstorms are somewhat problematic however, but that has more to do with their magnitude and relentlessness than their content (as long as the content isn't threatening obviously), and is a technical medium problem.

I'm also somewhat worried about near reflexive opposition to controversial statements. But again, that has more to do with people being open to listen to ideas they disagree with, and stopping them from replying with their own statements would also be a limit on free speech. It might just be something we'll have to live with. I appreciate when newspapers and others are willing to host controversial opinions however, and see that as an undivided good.

There are two points I'd like to address specifically though:
This doesn't feel just quite right to me. Like, a bit too broad perhaps. How about this instead:
The point of having such a thing as free speech, is that it is only really necessary to have free speech when stating something that THE GOVERNMENT finds offensive.
That I think is the heart of it.
I take it by the government you assume that will be alright, since the government is the only violent actor in the state? On first thought I think that works, but what about large non-government actors? Say, if 90% of the population adheres to a specific religion, or a huge company control most of the jobs in a city. Those entities could certainly limit speech they're not happy about.

And at least two posters have come right out and said that news outlets choosing not to gratuitously insult Muslims is a grave threat to free speech.
I'm in the camp who would have wished lots and lots of media did just this. I can't exactly force anyone to do it, as it's their own right to decide what to print or show.

However, looking at it from a higher, more strategical view, the whole cartoon situation started when a newspaper in Denmark noticed that there was a general fear of offending Islam. And it turned out that those fears were real. So while I can understand the arguments about how one shouldn't offend just to offend, I think it would have been wiser, in the long run, to go all out and demonstrate that the freedom of speech can not be curtailed, and that even a religion like Islam must accept criticism, scrutiny and mockery.

Instead, the vast majority of publications have avoided imagery of Muhammad. That they choose not to offend simply to offend is a decent argument for the choice, but it can also be interpreted as an admission that a) freedom of speech can (and should) be curtailed and b) as long as news media are threatened enough, they will fold. What could have been a Streisand effect and a clear end to the situation, instead turned into muted abstention.

It left publications like Charlie Hebdo alone, and as a clearly marked target for those who would not accept criticism and mockery of their religion. The public - if partly hypocritical - outcry and support of Charlie Hebdo after the attack did help to some extent, but I still see it as two steps backwards and one step forward.

And does it really matter if we can't make fun of Muhammad? Yes, it does. Sober criticism can just as easily be denied as crude mockery, and when almost two billion people hold a man whom they say committed war crimes, rape, slavery and child molestation up as an example of the most virtuous person ever, there really is a need for both criticism and mockery.

And a final little note: Life of Brian was temporarily banned for blasphemy in Norway, a mere four years before I was born! This isn't an abstract discussion about the feelings of Muslims, it is a real question about censorship! That film was hilariously funny and good, and put a critical view on religions and their leaders, followers, and doctrines. I'm sure there is good comedy waiting behind the sanctity of Muhammad too, once we can actually get to it...
 
Instead, the vast majority of publications have avoided imagery of Muhammad. That they choose not to offend simply to offend is a decent argument for the choice, but it can also be interpreted as an admission that a) freedom of speech can (and should) be curtailed and b) as long as news media are threatened enough, they will fold. What could have been a Streisand effect and a clear end to the situation, instead turned into muted abstention.

I don't think the news papers left the images unpublished because of being intimidated, but because there simply was not much reason to publish them. The information that some of Muslims consider them blasphemous is pretty much all that's relevant, the exact content of them isn't that important.

It's preposterous to think that papers should print everything that some group might find offensive just for the sake of freedom and shared risk. The mission of papers isn't really to print everything that can be printed, it's to print things that are relevant and matter.

If the papers had to print everything that might offend the radical Muslims, it would be ransomed by the crazy far right instead of the Muslims, and that wouldn't be any better.
 
I wouldn't say that they'd have to print everything (in fact, they don't have to listen to me at all), and I fully understand that it's not their mission to simply print things for the sake of printing, or offending for the sake of offending. I do think it was a proper time to make a political statement and demonstrate that if push comes to show, they will be supporting the freedom of speech, even in the face of lethal threats.

Opposing censorship should, I think, at least be in the papers interest? And while, outside of the possible political statement, there was no reason to print the images, it can certainly be interpreted as giving in to Islamists.
 
Cheetah said:
Instead, the vast majority of publications have avoided imagery of Muhammad. That they choose not to offend simply to offend is a decent argument for the choice, but it can also be interpreted as an admission that a) freedom of speech can (and should) be curtailed and b) as long as news media are threatened enough, they will fold. What could have been a Streisand effect and a clear end to the situation, instead turned into muted abstention.

Such hysteria is really no different from the corresponding paranoid notion that the Hebdo cartoons represented some sort of actual attack on Islam or Muslims (which I *have* heard from people I know).

But then came the moment of clarity:

Cheetah said:
And does it really matter if we can't make fun of Muhammad? Yes, it does. Sober criticism can just as easily be denied as crude mockery, and when almost two billion people hold a man whom they say committed war crimes, rape, slavery and child molestation up as an example of the most virtuous person ever, there really is a need for both criticism and mockery.

didn't take long for an apparently sober-minded commentary to devolve into crass Islamophobia.
None of these concepts makes particular sense as applied to geopolitics or society in the 7th century (well, except rape but where do Muslims say he did that?) How different is this really from Americans who venerate slaveholders and a document (the Constitution) that is a slaveholders' compact?

It's also not that we "can't make fun of" Muhammad. It's that doing so is usually counterproductive and can have bad consequences. If you want to talk about practical consequences, do you really think mocking the Prophet will cause any Muslim to become more "moderate" or more inclined to integrate into Western culture? Because I don't.
 
@Cheetah:

Opposing censorship when it occurs, yes.

In this case, I think the papers made even better gesture by not giving in to the division and polarizing of people: even when bombed and shot we won't give up to the attempts of division and polarization.
 
@Lexicus: If you can't stay serious enough to avoid throwing made-up nonsense like Islamophobia at me, then we have nothing to talk about.

@Cheetah:

Opposing censorship when it occurs, yes.

In this case, I think the papers made even better gesture by not giving in to the division and polarizing of people: even when bombed and shot we won't give up to the attempts of division and polarization.
Perhaps. That is certainly a more positive interpretation. I hope it will work out well in the end. :)
 
Cheetah said:
@Lexicus: If you can't stay serious enough to avoid throwing made-up nonsense like Islamophobia at me, then we have nothing to talk about.

There is certainly serious argument in that post, but I guess you were triggered by the word "Islamophobia."

waaambulance_131849927469.jpg
 
There are two points I'd like to address specifically though:
I take it by the government you assume that will be alright, since the government is the only violent actor in the state? On first thought I think that works, but what about large non-government actors? Say, if 90% of the population adheres to a specific religion, or a huge company control most of the jobs in a city. Those entities could certainly limit speech they're not happy about.

Just have a look at what Facebook is doing, they are doing their best to limit free speech.

@Lexicus, you are the one who went into that territory, not Cheetah.
 
"Ugh, noone should be offended by free speech, even when that speech is advocating for the removal of their political and legal rights." - A white dude on the internet

Snarky and unproductive I know, I just find it staggering that you lack sufficient perspective or insight about how discussing whether a group of people is crazy or deserving of rights sounds to the group in question.

Funny. When I look at what you quoted and are allegedly replying to, I don't see any mention of political and legal rights at all, let alone an expressed desire to remove them.

Maybe you need to clean your monitor or something.
 
Funny. When I look at what you quoted and are allegedly replying to, I don't see any mention of political and legal rights at all, let alone an expressed desire to remove them.

Maybe you need to clean your monitor or something.

The subject is the limits of free speech Manfred. Examples of extreme positions are useful in examining where we might draw the boundaries of permissible speech.

I hope you can see that.
 
Ryika said:
If you get intimidated by an opinion that's your problem, not the problem of the speaker.

Nazi expresses his opinion that Jews are filth and should be killed.

Jew gets intimidated, complains.

Ryika: Hey buddy, this is your problem, that guy was just expressing an opinion.

Accurate characterization of your views or am I being unfair here?
 
Nazi expresses his opinion that Jews are filth and should be killed.

Jew gets intimidated, complains.

Ryika: Hey buddy, this is your problem, that guy was just expressing an opinion.

Accurate characterization of your views or am I being unfair here?

Clearly they shouldn't get so offended or basically this:

ngbbs4aaf5cdb00773.jpg


Calmly stating a disgusting opinion doesn't give it any weight.
 
The picture is broken, I wanted to laugh at your post but couldn't :(
 
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