I got my first "Win" on deity

Nuwan

Chieftain
Joined
Mar 9, 2006
Messages
45
Last night, I won my first ever game on deity, going 15 years all the way to Civ II! :)

Napolean, Small, Continents, normal speed, other settings default. Won by Space race by turn 285.

First, thanks to all of you for the playbook I followed to win the game. I opened with Liberty, grabbed the Hagia Sophia with the specialist Engineer, got another one, and used him for Porcelain Tower, and promptly lightbulbed Astronomy, opening up Rationalism. I had 4 cities by then, and then rapidly expanded to 8, which caused a few problems but gave me some more luxuries.

The quotations are there because of two thing. First, Caesar, the runaway leader who had conquered two other civs built the UN about 15 turns before I won. Despite having 80,000 gold!!!, he didn't even try to increase the number of city states by the time of the first vote. That was silly. Also, he had finished 99 percent of the tech tree by the end (I had 95). Despite this, he didn't build any spaceship parts at all, though he did finish the Apollo project about 30 turns earlier.

The second reason is that I had to reload the game from about 5 turns back near the end. I had stupidly given open borders to Gandhi, who plunked down two units on a railroad linking a city building an SS booster to the capital. Despite the fact that I should have been able to move past Gandhi's units, the computer annoyingly decided not to treat those squares as roads, and I had to detour, upon which Gandhi declared war and blew up the spaceship part! That was partly carelessness due to late night, but it was also sloppy coding.

In sum, it was fun, it took a LOT of micro-managing cities, but some of the coding sloppiness on the part of Firaxis was annoying. But, I guess it would be impossible to win on Deity without the sloppy code. Ideally, they would improve the code and tone down the benefits to the IT. But hey, one can dream. I'll try again, possibly different maps, civs, and may be even victory conditions.

Thanks for reading.
 
Yeah, its interesting how sometimes the AIs have the resources to win, and they just sort of freeze up towards the end of the game. I've won some diplo games even when other AIs had 50,000 gold and didn't even try to buy CSs. I won a cultural game when Hiawatha built every spaceship part, but never put it all together. It just goes to show you should stick it out even in games when you think you are hopelessly behind.
 
Does this make this ''win'' legit? For sure it's legit. Because it happens to everyone. With a bit of brain a deity AI would be unstoppable for each try from any player.
 
Yes the only reason we can win at deity is because the AI is (almost) completely clueless
- It can buy so many armies you could not even move, but just doesnt, even when loosing a war
- It can buy each and every CS, but just doesnt
- It could prioritize spaceship parts in its vast empire, but just doesnt
The only thing it does somewhat well is expansion
 
@ bc1 I agree with you, but what does it say about the quality of the AI in Civ 5? I'm hoping for great things from the update. They have AI that can play at grand master levels in chess, so why not have a decent level of AI in Civ?
 
I really wish they would make the AI more competent with the expansion, and offset that by turning down the bonuses at higher levels. That would make the game a whole lot better.
 
@ bc1 I agree with you, but what does it say about the quality of the AI in Civ 5? I'm hoping for great things from the update. They have AI that can play at grand master levels in chess, so why not have a decent level of AI in Civ?
Because Civ is much more complicated than chess. In chess there are only 2 players, 32 pieces and 64 tiles in total. In chess you actually can calculate the optimal path, yet "Deep Blue" that beat Kasparov was able to calculate only 7 steps ahead. Which was enough to 'outsmart' a human brain. But still, simple setup and only 7 steps. Civ's setup is incomparable to chess thus achieving a really strong and sophisticated AI is beyond our ability just yet. It doesn't mean the devs should stop trying, but we also need to adjust our expectations. Being disappointed time after time is pointless.
 
I'm curious how exactly did the AI get ~80K gold?

Is it rapid expansion? Puppets?
 
My only Diety win in Civ V: Playing Korea on the Korean scenario.
I only gave it a shot since I'd get an achievement either way; but ended up getting credit for flawless strategy in addition to Honoring the ancestors.
 
Rome captured two other AIs and had nearly half the landmass of the game with huge cities. Still, it was a small map, so I had trouble imaging how it could get to that much gold by turn 285.
 
Because Civ is much more complicated than chess. In chess there are only 2 players, 32 pieces and 64 tiles in total. In chess you actually can calculate the optimal path, yet "Deep Blue" that beat Kasparov was able to calculate only 7 steps ahead. Which was enough to 'outsmart' a human brain. But still, simple setup and only 7 steps. Civ's setup is incomparable to chess thus achieving a really strong and sophisticated AI is beyond our ability just yet. It doesn't mean the devs should stop trying, but we also need to adjust our expectations. Being disappointed time after time is pointless.

Not only this, but the computer which played such good chess had special chips optimized for playing. I have watched computers play in tournaments. Some of them, I'm not certain about Deep Blue, had a telephone connection to a mainframe off-site. I don't remember whether that was the case when I watched Deep Blue play.

To get this kind of an AI in Civ we would have to get special hardware which was geared mainly for Civilization and maybe still have to have an online connection to a similiarly optimized off-site computer.

It took years of development for Deep Blue to attain the capabilities to play chess at the highest levels.

Further research: Apparently, even better chess playing computers have been developed using advanced programming which enable searching 18 or so moves ahead in some positions and running on a dual-core PC!.
 
@Pilgrim and RonMar Your points are valid. I didn't mean to suggest that AI in Civ will ever be anything like the level of Deep Blue. By the same token, no Civ player will ever develope the mastery of their game that the great chess masters have.

I was just hoping for AI to improve to the point where it at least finishes off games it has essentially already won. It is completely inconsistent in this area.
 
I have longed complained about cheesy wins but I think it is deliberate. In every game on Deity/Immortal, there's always at least one civ with tens of thousands in gold and/or tons of units or production. If they flipped a bit and use the gold, units or production - it would be impossible for us to win any games unless you significantly penalize the AI (i.e., reductions in bonuses). I think Sid talked about the hero complex when playing games and things like this give us the opening for us to win and to keep playing.
 
Because Civ is much more complicated than chess. In chess there are only 2 players, 32 pieces and 64 tiles in total. In chess you actually can calculate the optimal path, yet "Deep Blue" that beat Kasparov was able to calculate only 7 steps ahead. Which was enough to 'outsmart' a human brain. But still, simple setup and only 7 steps. Civ's setup is incomparable to chess thus achieving a really strong and sophisticated AI is beyond our ability just yet. It doesn't mean the devs should stop trying, but we also need to adjust our expectations. Being disappointed time after time is pointless.
Well, CiV might be harder to reduce to pure calculation, but, as a chess master, I can certainly assure you that CiV is not "much more complicated than chess"! There are certain formulas in CiV (such as the HS-PT beeline) which, when combined and mastered, pretty much guarantee one a win. We chessplayers have it a little rougher. One basically spends one's whole life learning piece configurations and honing tactics.

But perhaps this is comparing apples and oranges. A competent AI doesn't have to calculate every unit move in CiV, because, unlike in chess, the exact configuration and interrelationship of all the "pieces" rarely matters. Instead of deeper tactical calculation,what the CiV AI needs instead is a better script of basic strategies. For example, it's surely not that complex to program in a way to check to see if enough CS's can be bought for a CS victory. "If $ / 1000 > # of CS's needed for victory then buy CS's one turn before UN vote" can't be that hard to program?
 
Deep Blue did, at least at the start, use brute force analysis. The newer software versions of top chess computers, "trim" the analysis tree much more as human players do. That is why they perform better on PC's than Deep Blue did with specialized chips and other special hardware configurations.

Still, the amount of development time required for each new version of the game would be major. The characteristics of each civ would have to be taken into account as well as the victory conditions, difficulty levels and other variables. The number of civ players (customers) impose financial considerations as well.

Still, it might be good to have a version which would be more difficult to win. For myself, I still am unable to play successfully at what many here would call rather low difficulty levels. The AI's incompetence is not as great as mine.:)
 
@Sprenk I agree with your post. I've played chess competitively since I was a child, although I never reached Master level. I've played against newer chess programs that are far more difficult to beat than Civ at any level.

Regarding AI on Civ 5, my main complaint is the inconsistency. I have been in games where an AI aggresively bought up CSs and won diplo games. Maybe the program decides if you have played a very strong game, it will "let" you win at higher levels?
 
Well, CiV might be harder to reduce to pure calculation, but, as a chess master, I can certainly assure you that CiV is not "much more complicated than chess"! There are certain formulas in CiV (such as the HS-PT beeline) which, when combined and mastered, pretty much guarantee one a win. We chessplayers have it a little rougher. One basically spends one's whole life learning piece configurations and honing tactics.

But perhaps this is comparing apples and oranges. A competent AI doesn't have to calculate every unit move in CiV, because, unlike in chess, the exact configuration and interrelationship of all the "pieces" rarely matters. Instead of deeper tactical calculation,what the CiV AI needs instead is a better script of basic strategies. For example, it's surely not that complex to program in a way to check to see if enough CS's can be bought for a CS victory. "If $ / 1000 > # of CS's needed for victory then buy CS's one turn before UN vote" can't be that hard to program?
I never implied chess is an easier game for humans to master than civ is. Tbh, civ5 in particular isn't hard at all. If you want to go this road then we do compare apples and oranges. I play chess myself (not a master by any means, actually, I'm pretty bad at it despite the fact I'm doing this since I was a kid :D). However, from algorithms complexity point of view they are incomparable. And while you are right that there is no need to calculate every optimal move of every unit, sometimes there is. At the battlefield, for example. We all, including me, complain about how horrible AI is at combat. And I do not expect wonders in the future. With 1upt it probably wiil never be good. Time/space complexity of good combat strategy is beyond current AI ability. As simple as that. It's not just "If there is a unit close to my 5 then flank it". It's more like "if there is a unit close to my 5, let's assume I flank it. Now check all enemy units that my 5 would get in their range. Calculate all possible damages considering all possible terrain, resources etc modifiers. Now check if there is a road which can bring more enemy units into range and danger my flankers. If true, calculate all possible damages dealt to my units by those hypothetical units. Is killing that flanked unit still worth it? If true, span all possible combinations of new units arrived the next turn. Are terrain features gonna prevent a successful retreat of my units next turn? If they might, calculate all possible damages dealt by anyone in the battlefield to my units..." etc. It goes on and on. Human eye and brain do all this tactical 'computation' in seconds. It took me few minutes just to type it in a non-formal language. :)
Programming chess, on the other hand, isn't a problem for decades now. It's a rather simple recursion. The limitations are purely hardware-related. Spanning the tree of all possible combinations is what it's all about. And it's a finite number, btw. On top of heuristic methods RonMar mentioned, many of the programs you guys are talking about use end game databases which include explicit span of end game tree, which makes them pretty much invincible. Human brain can't anticipate every possible move even when only few pieces left on the board, computer can. In civ, obviously, such database cannot be created, neither spanning the tree at any stage of the game is possible. Amount of factors needed to be taken into consideration is, once again, incomparable.

As for diplo victory, do you really want an answer? ;) IMO, this nonsense shouldn't be existent neither for human player, nor AI. It's not a victory in my dictionary. Seriously. It's cheesy and stupid. Do you honestly believe the game would improve had AI used the same cheese players do? Regarding your example it wouldn't even matter on lower difficulties, b/c clever players make sure AI has no cash of its own. On higher ones AI will simply re-bribe and re-steal CS's one from another every turn, since all of them sit on thousands and in the meanwhile the human player will launch the spaceship/build Utopia the same way he/she does now. Another option - AI whose turn was the last one is declared a winner, then human would never win at higher difficulties which would lead to another nonsense.

'Saying' to AI to do the right stuff - isn't a constructive suggestion, unfortunately. The developers should concentrate on rebalancing and improving things that can actually be fixed. Yes, AI is beyond terrible at beelining long-term goals or leveraging it's ridiculous bonuses. And it can be tweaked here and there. But we'll get much better result after applying changes to things like diplomacy, trading, RA'S/GS. All of these need an overhaul. All of these have a major impact on game outcome and can be fixed. 'Smartening' AI, however - I'd not count on that. AI field is currently stagnating for a reason. Had it been as easy as some players claim, don't you think game developers would have done a 'smarter' AI by now?
 
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