I Just Don't Get Lucian

[Ekolite]

Try small, normal pangea.

 

[Bill Bisco]

Lucian plays best on Marathon, and of course smaller maps are easier for anyone to conquer.

 

[Emptiness]

I do agree that giving him the hero promotion would be fair though, considering he will never be that powerful due to low base strength and that the Doviello are very weak right now.

This would not be a good idea, because by turn 50 he would be Str 6 +100% combat.

I agree. He's potentially very dangerous, but you must risk him to get that way. Giving him free xp allows him to become very dangerous without risk.

I gave him 'Heroic'. Max of 50xp, gains .5 a turn.

Better than full hero, but even 26 xp is enough to turn him into a Warrior-slaughtering machine (for Mahala; Charadon can do it with 17). If that xp comes free then there's no risk of losing him on the way to that point.

Lucian fits very well into the Doviello all or nothing philosophy. Charadon is the earliest rusher in the game, he literallly attacks in the first 10 turns. As soon as you find an enemy you attack and you conquer. After that, you can throw Lucian away. He's only an axeman, and is in fact worth less then an ordinary axeman because unlike them he can't upgrade.

Under Malhalla Lucian isn't so useful, but she makes up for it by having better leader traits. He will however protect you quite well from other early rushers (Sheelba, Alexis and Tasunke).

Either way, Lucian fits his purpose fantastically and does not need to be changed.

Well said.

 

[Bill Bisco]

Poorly said. You level up Lucian until he can conquer a city. You certainly don't risk your Str 4 unit with less than a 90% chance to win.

 

[Ekolite]

No, you don't.

With Charadon you start with the Combat 1 promotion. This is enough in the early game to get very high odds iirc, and if it's not then you can easilly weaken the defense with a warrior or two before letting him mop up. You level him up while he's conquering cities. This allows you to prolong the time-scale in which he is useful, allowing more cities to be taken while taking advantage of Charadon's primary strength, the ability to rush ridiculously early.

With Mahalla its a whole different game and Lucian serves a different role as she isn't quite so geared up for rushing. (To be an effective early rusher, rushing before turn 50 or so, you need the aggressive trait)

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I really like how in FF he can upgrade down the melee line whilst keeping his lucian-ness ( i.e. a little bit of added strength ) . coupled with a lesser powerful version of hero like Orbis and FF+ would be just right imho.

for the record, Mahala is one of my favourite leaders, but this doesn't change the fact that they're way below average. clan of embers has warrens, doviello get... some nice stuff, but nothing ffh-ish, in ffh each civ is supposed to have something unique and overpowered that sets them apart

 

[Ekolite]

They get very cheap upgrades, as well as the ability to upgrade in the field and upgrade slaves down the melee line.

 

[Senethro]

They get very cheap upgrades, as well as the ability to upgrade in the field and upgrade slaves down the melee line.

But they've got nothing "cool" about them. They've got by far the least toys of any civ. I've literally never built The War Machine as its just in the wrong part of the tech tree to be relevent to Doviello. A slight reworking of Lucian wouldn't be a terrible idea.

 

[Skyre Noktis]

I really like how in FF he can upgrade down the melee line whilst keeping his lucian-ness ( i.e. a little bit of added strength ) .

I think this is the best solution. He'd still be a powerful unit late game if you used him and got experience early on, but he wouldn't be over-powered. The fact that he can't upgrade means he's not so useful currently.

Edit: Also, perhaps give him access to promotions that require Hero but not the free XP. Late game Lucian could then be an Immortal with +1 str and another +2 str from Heroic Strength promos.

 

[Senethro]

I think this is the best solution. He'd still be a powerful unit late game if you used him and got experience early on, but he wouldn't be over-powered. The fact that he can't upgrade means he's not so useful currently.

Edit: Also, perhaps give him access to promotions that require Hero but not the free XP. Late game Lucian could then be an Immortal with +1 str and another +2 str from Heroic Strength promos.

But that discourages using him in the early game as without saving and reloading, hes not unlikely to die even at 99% chances, given he'll have so many fights in the course of a game.
Lucian as a Great Commander who pops back up in the the capital when the unit hes attached to dies has a couple of flavour and mechanical advantages. Firstly, he adds a little colour into the Doviello army in that large midgame portion between AxemanLucian dying and their unique units appearing. Secondly, you can use him just as recklessly as AxemanLucian, leading the charge into every battle as a visible figurehead. While with AxemanLucian this is because he has no long term value, with GCLucian its because the only real risk you're taking with the unit hes attached to. This actually gets around the save/reload and OnlyFightsAt99.99% issues that we know a lot of players engage in with their unique units that don't sit well with a berserker mindset.

He could even just keep his current art and wouldn't need new ones like if he was given a unique upgrade path through the Doviello melee line.

Short version: AxemanLucian is a nice little bonus that you use while he lives, GCLucian mechanically is almost exactly the same in the first 100 turns (a strength 4 city attacker), and afterwards becomes a personal trainer who helps new Doviello units gain XP faster and is always first into tough battles.

 

[PekkaR]

But they've got nothing "cool" about them. They've got by far the least toys of any civ. I've literally never built The War Machine as its just in the wrong part of the tech tree to be relevent to Doviello. A slight reworking of Lucian wouldn't be a terrible idea.

Early rush specialist (Charadon) and promotions on the field with Ingenuity (Mahala) are pretty cool things. Charadon has just had his teeth pulled because starting next to a Doviello player (even human one) shouldn't mean an immediate loss. The idea about Lucian as great commander sounds very interesting.

The worldspell Wild Hunt is also flavorful but kind of weak. Perhaps the wolves could be stronger but not permanent or it could have a tech requirement instead of being one of the early rush tools, again allowing the wolves to be stronger. One way to make them stronger would be allowing the player to combine wolves into wolf packs at will.

Not sure what, if anything, should be done with War Machine. Sometimes I want to play Doviello (with Mahala) just to avoid using any civ-specific perks and focus on my understanding of basic FFH mechanics.

 

[Imuratep]

Edit: Overlooked the second page. My opinion already has been said and answered.

 

[Ekolite]

For those of you who think the Doviello are a comparitively weak civ, give Charadon the Charismatic trait as well. I feel that the Barbarian trait is mostly a disadvantage, and so avoids the otherwise very strong combination of Agg/Cha from being Overpowered. The change can easilly be done using the excel editor (just add ''1'' where it says Charismatic). It makes for a really fun game and I think it's quite suitable both thematically and in terms of game play.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

agreed, a couple modmods give him Cha exactly for that reason.

 

[Valkrionn]

I gave him Warlord... Not quite the same thing but close. Grants Ambition to all Melee, Archer, Recon units. +25% xp from battles.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I believe I was the first to suggest Charismatic for Charadon, so I of course agree. Currently Charadon is just Sheelba minus the Organized trait. We're talking about a guy charismatic enough that people generations after his death sought to bring him back to life.


The only non-minor leader who might be worse than Charadon is Garrim Gyr, because his defender trait does nothing to help the Golems that tend to make up most of his army. He should really return to his pre-BtS traits, or at least get Arcane back in place of Defender. He appears from the lore to be an arch-enchanter, after all.





According to the Lore, Lucian should probably start with Iron Weapons. In addition to being the greatest Doviello warrior of Mahala's time (long after the end of the Age of Ice, or at the beginning of Auric Ulvin's New Age of Ice), he is known to carry an heirloom battle axe which is the last relic the Dovielo possess of the time when they had the means to make metal weapons. Of course, giving him Iron weapons that early would probably be overpowered. I wonder if it would be ok for him to start with Iron Weapons and Rusted? It would make sense for an axe that has been used in a tundra for over 400 years to have a bit of rust on it, and would mean he would be somewhat weaker until you get the technology to build a Forge.

 

[Ekolite]

That's an interesting idea but I think it would make Lucian too powerful, and it would also remove the interesting differences in strategy between Charadon and Mahala. At present, Charadon is a rusher because Lucian + Combat 1 = win, and warriors with combat 1 make the perfect fodder. Charadon's game is all in the pre-bronze era. In contrast, Malhala is at a slight disadvantage for early rushing, precisely because her army (and Lucian) don't get Combat 1. If you gave Lucian iron weapons, even with rusted, I think he'd be strong enough to take out civs singlehandedly, meaning that both leaders would be stone age rushers which spoils the nice dynamic between them.

While Charadon excels in the warrior phase, Malhala tends to be stronger once you hit broze working, where you can immediately have far more Axemen then any of your neighbours because you can upgrade all your warrriors.

 

[Senethro]

The only non-minor leader who might be worse than Charadon is Garrim Gyr, because his defender trait does nothing to help the Golems that tend to make up most of his army. He should really return to his pre-BtS traits, or at least get Arcane back in place of Defender. He appears from the lore to be an arch-enchanter, after all.

A leader with only Fin would be better than Charadon in most situations. If we're looking for bad leader traits I'd pick out Ethne, Capria and Arturus.

Sometimes I wonder if a Charismatic Lucian would make a better leader and a Revive Charadon ritual available with Mysticism would be a better hero.

 

[Ekolite]

That's actually not such a bad idea...

EDIT: Although he would essentially just become the same as any other hero. The fact that they get to start with a ''hero'' is a nice USP for the Doviello.

 

[readercolin]

What about the following changes to the Dovollio.

Leaders:
Charadon gains charismatic, making him aggressive, charismatic, and barbarian.
Mahala gains expansive, making her raiders, expansive, and ingeneous

Lucian:
Change him to a Dovollio Great General that the Dovollio start with. Then give the Dovollio civ-specific great generals. These great generals would be unable to build command posts or recruit, but would instead give different bonus's when attached to units. Specifically, they would grant the current +1 strength, +1xp from combat, as they do right now. But they would also double the units metal bonus. This would mean that he would grant +1 strength to a unit without metal, +3 to a unit with bronze, +5 to a unit with Iron, and +9 to a unit with mithril (note, this is including the weapon promotions with it). This would give them a bonus core of units who are stronger than others, but to get them they would have to give up specialists. Then, give them a civ-specific command post that doesn't require organized, and gives +1 GC points. That and the wonders which grant GC points would be the only ways for them to get these great commanders, which would keep it in check.

Flavor:
Flavorwise, they are supposed to love the tundra. Currently, tundra is as worthless to them as to anyone else, and there is no way to get tundra. So, give them +1 hammer, +1 commerce from tundra, +1 food from ice, and give their adepts a spell that can turn plains to tundra (optionally, make this only work within their own borders). Combined with sun to scorch ice to tundra, and grassland to plains, and water to turn deserts to plains, they can become a tundra dwelling civ that can terraform their own territory.
Secondly, give them a unique improvement that can only be built on tundra, and cannot be built next to another version of the same improvement (must be 1 tile between them, instead of two like pirate coves), and have this improvement give +2 food, a few commerce, a chance to discover hunting resources, and the ability to be built under forests (plus a bonus for hunting resources found in it).
Third flavor point. Upgrading units is a prime tenant of the dovollio philosophy. So how about giving their melee units a chance to upgrade (if the requisite tech is available) to a higher level unit on combat victory or level up. Units can still be upgraded normally, but they can also be upgraded in this manner. If you want slightly more flavor, have beastmen be able to upgrade to Sons of Asena in this manner at mining, and Sons of Asena to Battlemasters at smelting.

Worldspell:
Right now, their worldspell allows them to get a bunch of wolves - semi-useful in the early game, worthless aside from rushing and getting wolf-pens in cities. So an idea to make it more useful, and allow them their rushing flavor, and allow more strength in the midgame. Change the worldspell to unlock at bronze working or smelting. Then, have it reduce the population of all cities to 1. For every population removed, give 1-3 beastmen with the free-unit promotion (1% chance to wear off each turn). Increase the number given by 1 each for running military state and conquest. Note, I said beastmen, so to upgrade them to axmen would still require plenty of gold.

Hero:
The war machine is a neat toy. I doubt that anyone who has actually played the dovollio have ever actually used it though. With their flavor though, their hero HAS to be a combat unit - no dovollio would follow some weakling mage or priest. On this note, it would seem wise for the leader of this civ to lead it where it belongs - on the battlefield.
Therefore, Playing as Charadon would give you the hero Charadon. Charadon would replace Lucian, available at the start of the game. Then, at bronze working he would be able to take the hero promotion. In addition, he would be able to upgrade along the melee line.
Mahala would take the field at warfare. She would give you a great general (named Mahala of course), who can attach to any unit, just like Lucian. But, in addition to the great general effects, she would also give the unit she attaches to the Hero promotion.

Hmm... I might see about making this into a little modmod myself. It would certaintly make me interested in playing them.

-Colin