I made some tweaks to the rules... any feedback?

[BTB]

Please see current discussion thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=201239

 

[Ares de Borg]

Why should the Intelligence Agency require Communism?

 

[BTB]

Why should the Intelligence Agency require Communism?

In previous Civs (and in this one, too), the Espionage advance always seemed tied to Communism, so I just stuck 'em together (the real reason being that Democracy took Espionage's place and I was kinda out of room).

Sorry, I'm sorta tired right now... 'tis late and all

 

[Virote_Considon]

So, then, how did you manage to make a tech in one era require one in another?

 

[Spacer One]

Prior to researching Nationalism, both Military Tradition and Free Artistry must be under your belt. The natural outlet for national pride, of course, are the two advanced governments. Democracy sits in Coumminism's old spot, requiring only Nationalism to be researched. However, Communism now also requires Industrialization to be researched. And as you'll notice, you will no longer be able to research the pollution-fighting power of Ecology prior to discovering a government that spwans hippies who actually give a damn about the environment (as well as the evil counterpart to said government... I kinda had to throw that one in there).

So Communism is a Hippy government form?...I have to STRONGLY disagree...and yet these "hippies" also have the Espionage ability?...Im really not sure about this one

Courthouse

Now reuiqres The Republic rather than Code of Laws.

I dont understand the reason for this either

Mass Transit

No longer requires rubber to build. If the game isn't going to make you have rubber for your little civs to build cars and pollute up the place, I'm not going to make you have rubber to build them a Goddamn bus.

who says they dont need rubber?...you cant exactly build cars in Civ3

Military Academy

Being able to build armies from scratch is, well, imbalancing. Forming an army should be a rarity that occurs only when you get a leader and make the hard decisiona s to what to do with it, not something that you can churn out by the dozen. As such, this wonder is gone... and yes, I'm aware that this is probably going to be one of the least-liked of my overall suggestions.

So being able to raise an Army shouldnt be possible?? the chances of a Random ML are rare, there is NOTHING unbalancing about 1 of your cities being able to build armies...

Oh, yeah, and I also made it stop appearing in jungles (coal does not belong in a jungle).

MOUNTAINS???? it should be Swamp at least
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal#Composition

Removing Dyes?...Dyes are still used today...

Bomber

Now upgrades to Stealth Bomber

this could not happen in reality...planes cannot just be "refit" to Stealth capabilities...they have to be rebuilt

All in All, I dont really see any changes that keep balance...youve made several Wonders grossly more powerful than others...things like Battlefield Medicine are essential to the future gameplay(as it represents Combat Medics) but too powerful to couple with other Wonders...I really think you've taken an odd look at Civ3, and how to fix it...things like:

Two wonders that double the science rate of a city is enough, really.

Well sure, but there are 31 civs...arent more than 1 Civ gaining something like that feasible?...and combining the Wonders like you have, will make it easier for 1 Civ to pull ahead of the others...By Building 1-2 Wonders they can gain the benefit of several instead...

I hate to say it, but overall, it sounds bad to me...Alot of these changes seem to go with your style of play and not at all with keeping Civ more balanced...

but this is of course, my opinion...and you know what they say about opinions...

 

[Nwoll]

BTB - I thought most of your ideas were well thought out, and your mod seems like it would be fun to play. I don't play vanilla games anymore so I can't relate to all of your changes, but the tech tree sounds good.
I also would like to know how you made a tech in one era require one in another.
Spacer One -

Quote:
Mass Transit

No longer requires rubber to build. If the game isn't going to make you have rubber for your little civs to build cars and pollute up the place, I'm not going to make you have rubber to build them a Goddamn bus.

who says they dont need rubber?...you cant exactly build cars in Civ3

I think what he is saying is that if you need a mass transit system you obviously already have enough rubber to build it.

Also,

Quote:
Bomber

Now upgrades to Stealth Bomber


this could not happen in reality...planes cannot just be "refit" to Stealth capabilities...they have to be rebuilt

Yeah, and 100 year old warriors don't train to be good swordsman, and 50 year old horseman's horses, don't become veteren knight's steeds either, but that's part of the game. I always thought it was crazy that bombers couldn't upgrade to stealth bombers.

 

[BTB]

So Communism is a Hippy government form?...I have to STRONGLY disagree...and yet these "hippies" also have the Espionage ability?...Im really not sure about this one

LOL, no... Democracy is the government that spawns hippies (not trying to be funny, either- refer to the hippie movement of the 1960's).

MOUNTAINS???? it should be Swamp at least
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coal#Composition

Vanilla Civ doesn't have swamps... >.>

Removing Dyes?...Dyes are still used today...

So are a lot of things, but like so many other luxuries, they've become artificially created rather than having any kind of dependency on the natural occurrence of them.

One might also say the same thing about furs, except that fake fur really sucks.

All in All, I dont really see any changes that keep balance...youve made several Wonders grossly more powerful than others...things like Battlefield Medicine are essential to the future gameplay(as it represents Combat Medics) but too powerful to couple with other Wonders...I really think you've taken an odd look at Civ3, and how to fix it...things like:

Well sure, but there are 31 civs...arent more than 1 Civ gaining something like that feasible?...and combining the Wonders like you have, will make it easier for 1 Civ to pull ahead of the others...By Building 1-2 Wonders they can gain the benefit of several instead...

I hate to say it, but overall, it sounds bad to me...Alot of these changes seem to go with your style of play and not at all with keeping Civ more balanced...

but this is of course, my opinion...and you know what they say about opinions...

Not a problem. You're very well entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. Thanks for stopping by and replying... I appreciate any feedback I can get!

I should probably mention again that I'm playing Vanilla Civ... which has only 16 tribes in it (not 31 >.>).

As for the tech tree thing, I'll post it later hwne I get to work... it's too much typing to do right now.

 

[WildWeazel]

I like your reasoning with regards to the resources. I have mixed feelings about some of the other changes. The fusion of some of those wonders will probably make them overpowered and imbalancing.
My suggestion: get Conquests

 

[BTB]

I like your reasoning with regards to the resources. I have mixed feelings about some of the other changes. The fusion of some of those wonders will probably make them overpowered and imbalancing.
My suggestion: get Conquests

I had Conquests... I didn't much care for it. I'm more of a Vanilla Civ guy (weird, I know).

Just out of curiosity... which wonders do y'all see as overpowered? Aside from possibly Cure For Cancer, I don't see how I've changed any of them that much (hell, the Pyramids are LESS useful now).

 

[Civinator]

BTB, welcome to CFC.

This is an unusual big first post. Very positive is, that you are reflecting about a reason behind the features in Civ and try to connect the results you did find. I came to the same result, that a swordsman needs warrior Code-tech as perequisite - but a horseman needs it too. Here is a link to a very early techtree for the Ancient era in my mod: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=122759&d=1144488269.

And there is a thread in the Civ 3discussion forum that could be interesting for you (if you don´t know it yet):
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=160981

As a feedback, I join the statement of Weasel Op. And one thing I get aware: It seems, that you like to subtract features from Civ 3, but not to add other new features to it. Try it! At least for me this is the most fun in modding Civ 3.

Overall BTB, in my eyes you made a very good first post.

 

[BTB]

BTB, welcome to CFC.

This is an unusual big first post. Very positive is, that you are reflecting about a reason behind the features in Civ and try to connect the results you did find. I came to the same result, that a swordsman needs warrior Code-tech as perequisite - but a horseman needs it too. Here is a link to a very early techtree for the Ancient era in my mod: http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=122759&d=1144488269.

And there is a thread in the Civ 3discussion forum that could be interesting for you (if you don´t know it yet):
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=160981

As a feedback, I join the statement of Weasel Op. And one thing I get aware: It seems, that you like to subtract features from Civ 3, but not to add other new features to it. Try it! At least for me this is the most fun in modding Civ 3.

Overall BTB, in my eyes you made a very good first post.

Aw, thanks. Always nice to be welcome.

As you noted, yeah, there are a few things I've taken out, but I didn't put much back in to compensate. As noted by the fact that I've stuck with Vanilla Civ all this time, I'm somewhat of a purist... I try to keep my changes as conservative as I can for the most part.

Hell, it took me the longest time to move up to Civ 3 from Civ 2... but after much consideration I finally acknowledge Civ 3 as the superior Civ game.

I'll check out those other threads in a bit. I'm at work right now (I'm a senior technician for Yahoo!), and I'm busy taking care of things that haven't been done in a few days.

Oh, one last thing... regarding the overpowering of certain wonders, I was looking back over my changes and came to the SETI Program, and realized that I had forgotten to list the changes I made to the Research Lab. It now no longer generates pollution or culture... with the reasoning that a wonder that creates one in every city should not be generating massive amount of either pollution or culture in addition to that.

 

[Spacer One]

ok, since I TOTALLY overlooked the fact that this is for Vanilla Civ, I have to Echo the "go for it" comment...Vanilla players are painfully lacking in Epic Mods...

As for the rest...I understand most of it, tho I recommend Adding a few more luxury resources, just to balance (you've made War weariness "seemingly" a larger problem, and removed several alternate ways to get happy faces)...and/or adding a few more Wonders to do close to, if not the same thing...

I find that War weariness(also called anti-happiness) tends to slow the War possibility down too much. In my MOD (which seems the exact opposite of yours) I have added things to allow longer war periods...I was finding that I had to stop wars too early, and so wanted options to build that decreased War weariness...to that end you have increased the problem of War weariness...thats the part I like the least...

ALot of your Resource changes make sense, as do your unit changes(except for the Stealth Bomber...which I still dont think should be a Bomber upgrade...Fighters dont upgrade to Jets do they??)...but the Wonders seem to be getting the worst end of your logic...good luck with all your work, I am SURE that there will be a good response if you were to release it...Ive been asked SO many times to remake my scenario(stargate) for Vanilla...seems people just Wont buy conquests...

Im also glad that my comments didnt come across as rude, or arrogant, since I reread and they seem very judgmental, and they werent meant to be...

[edit] youre a tech for Yahoo? ...I dont know that Id admit that out loud...lol...

 

[BTB]

ok, since I TOTALLY overlooked the fact that this is for Vanilla Civ, I have to Echo the "go for it" comment...Vanilla players are painfully lacking in Epic Mods...

Yeah, which isn't really too big of a problem for me, thankfully. My aim was mroeso to make changes that I feel should have been part of the game as was shipped rather than add much to it.

It's the neurotic person in me, really >.>

As for the rest...I understand most of it, tho I recommend Adding a few more luxury resources, just to balance (you've made War weariness "seemingly" a larger problem, and removed several alternate ways to get happy faces)...and/or adding a few more Wonders to do close to, if not the same thing...

I find that War weariness(also called anti-happiness) tends to slow the War possibility down too much. In my MOD (which seems the exact opposite of yours) I have added things to allow longer war periods...I was finding that I had to stop wars too early, and so wanted options to build that decreased War weariness...to that end you have increased the problem of War weariness...thats the part I like the least...

Well, to me, anyways, the issue is that Democracy is a bit too overpowered. Communism is the form of government that allows for longer wars, whereas just as in the real world, wars should be very difficult to maintain under a Democracy (hell, just look at how hard it is for us to stay in Iraq without people throwing a fit )

ALot of your Resource changes make sense, as do your unit changes(except for the Stealth Bomber...which I still dont think should be a Bomber upgrade...Fighters dont upgrade to Jets do they??)...

Actually, they do. >.>

but the Wonders seem to be getting the worst end of your logic...

Yeah, they got the neurotic part of it, LOL. I agree with ya there. I just hated having wonders that either seemed A. useless or B. just sorta thrown in there. I don't see how any of them, with the possible exception of Cure For Cancer were overpowered... but I could be wrong.

good luck with all your work, I am SURE that there will be a good response if you were to release it...Ive been asked SO many times to remake my scenario(stargate) for Vanilla...seems people just Wont buy conquests...

Yeah, I tried Conquests out and just didn't care much for it. I much prefer the overall flavor of flat-out Vanilla Civ... call me a purist, but hey.

I'll take your advice and release this as a mod once I've playtested it a few times and made sure I'm happy with all of my changes.

Im also glad that my comments didnt come across as rude, or arrogant, since I reread and they seem very judgmental, and they werent meant to be..

Oh, no problem. Like I said before, I'm open to crticism of any sort. I usually get more informative answers from people who disagree with me, anyways... lol.

[edit] youre a tech for Yahoo? ...I dont know that Id admit that out loud...lol...

Haha!

Yeah... it's a fun job >.>

 

[BTB]

By the by... is anybody interested in playing this and telling me how it runs?

Right now, I'm working on editing the Civiliopedia to reflect my changes... but when I'm all said and done I may very well release this as a mod.

My favorite Civilopedia change? This one:

#PRTO_Musketeer
^
^
^[French Musketeers] are troops specifically trained to retreat from battle. They are faster than
normal musketmen.

 

[Civinator]

By the by... is anybody interested in playing this and telling me how it runs?

Right now, I'm working on editing the Civiliopedia to reflect my changes... but when I'm all said and done I may very well release this as a mod.

My favorite Civilopedia change? This one:

#PRTO_Musketeer
^
^
^[French Musketeers] are troops specifically trained to retreat from battle. They are faster than
normal musketmen.

Hi BTB,

please don´t forget, that the French Musketeers in the setting of Civ 3 Vanilla (Rifleman is too late for Napoleon) conquered big parts of Europe (including Germany) and so Napoleon had to retreat from Russia, I think one can´t say that these soldiers were not brave (trained to retreat). May be it should be enough, that they are faster than normal musketmen and have a chance to retreat.

I would download such a "Civ3 Vanilla mod" (and give it a try when I have the time for it).

 

[Quinzy]

i must say that i'm all in favour of the planes upgrading to stealth equivalents. spacers logic doesnt really stand. you cant upgrade a sherman to a modern tank in real life like in civ, just the same with the planes. i dont really think of it as upgrading in the sense of "here, i'll take your stone axe and give you this sword, helm and armour". it should be thought of as in Xhundred years time they swapped our of axes and used swords, helms and armour". its not really the one guy, just like its not the one plane.

and may i ask, what exactly dont you like about conquests? you say you want to make this mod enhance what was missing, yes? what about enslavement? thats very common in history and only available in conquests. spawned units from wonders? that could add to the game by letting the AI have units it normally wouldnt build. and what about medieval infantry? and there are many others. i dotn meant to sound push or anything, its just i cant really grasp why you would want a buggier, more simplified version of a game when a less buggy and more indepth version costs only about a fiver..

and lastly, go for it! as has been said, vanilla mods are a rarity.

 

[BTB]

and may i ask, what exactly dont you like about conquests? you say you want to make this mod enhance what was missing, yes? what about enslavement? thats very common in history and only available in conquests. spawned units from wonders? that could add to the game by letting the AI have units it normally wouldnt build. and what about medieval infantry? and there are many others. i dotn meant to sound push or anything, its just i cant really grasp why you would want a buggier, more simplified version of a game when a less buggy and more indepth version costs only about a fiver..

and lastly, go for it! as has been said, vanilla mods are a rarity.

What I didn't like about conquests is that I was jsut too much used to the original Civ 3, and everything that it added I really didn't much care for. The two new governments, for example, were governments I hated anyways. The Civ pool had become so watered down at that point that it was starting to remind me of Call To Power (speaking of which, I never engagded in acts of slavery, either). I guess unless you count capturing enemy workers and using them to till my soil, heh.

As for the whole "buggy" part, the patch takes Vanilla Civ and brings it up to speed with Conquests as far as bug fixes and rational changes go, so the patched Vanilla version plays like Conquests without all the bells and whistles.

Anyways, thank you for your support (Civinator and the rest of you, as well). I'm testing the mod right now and making a few final adjustments to fix up any issues I might have missed before I upload it (in this case, it seems I forgot to assign Banking and Printing Press as prerequisites of Free Artistry... so every civ in my game made a mad dash for Free Artistry as soon as we hit the Middle Ages >.<)

 

[BTB]

Oh, yeah, since a few of you asked...

I was very disappointed when I initially discovered that I could not designate a prerequisite technology from an era other than the one the current tech was in. I initially tried to get around this by moving the prerequisite tech up to the appropriate era (marking Literature as a middle age advance) so that I could do so, but the prerequisite would be lost upon downgrade back to ancient times. I almsot gave up.

It wasn't until later that I made a discovery that would allow for my ultimate plan. I moved Democracy up to the industrial ages, but in doing so forgot that both Banking and the Printing Press (read: middle age advances) were set as prerequisites. Strangely enough, it let me make the change of moving Democracy up to the industrial ages. but the prerequisites then became "stuck", since I would get an error message every time I tried to change one of the prerequisites (even if I tried to designate an industrial-age advance as a prerequisite, I would get an error message regarding the other middle-age prerequisite left on Democracy, and it would nto allow me to make the change).

It was then I discovered I would be able to do what I wanted to do, only it was going to be a huge pain in the ass. Starting at the very top of the tech tree with Stealth, I had to set it as an ancient advance and work my way all the way down, piece by piece, until I reached the bottom. Then, starting again from the top, I had to mark them all as middle age advances and again work my way down. Industrial ages followed, and finally The top four advances were finally re-marked as modern advances.

And there you have it. The cat's outta the bag >.>

 

[Plotinus]

Looks good! But I think this ought to be in the Completed Modpacks section.

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