I quit for now

Also go back to Civ 1... But I find myself wanting more civ leader mixing/matching! I really enjoy the diversity of bonuses that come from it, and find it minorly depressing that even if you see an ahistorical pairing, it disappears with the next age as leaders seem to always pick the least ahistorical choice. I'd love a "complete chaos" setting where the leaders pick at random.

I empathize with people wanting more historical accuracy, but honestly I think that torch was passed to Paradox probably more than a decade ago at this point...

Not so sure about Paradox getting the torch 10 years ago as I thought Civ VI was pretty good but EU5 looks like it is going to knock it out of the park. It looks phenomenal. The trade system alone looks great. The huge variety of nations and ways to play looks staggering.

If only they could extend it to about a 6,000 year period instead of the roughly 500 that they have. (1337-1820) Perhaps that mega Paradox game is a mythical beast that will never be realized. I wish I had heavily invested in bit coin all those years ago so I could be a 4X game philanthropist. 🙃

Anyway, while 7 is definitely not my cup of tea as it is for you or some others, this is a golden age (or perhaps a second one) for 4X games.
 
I think Failaxis should be given props for finally recognizing how Hawaii played a major role in world history !

However, I do equally blame them for nerfing my pet civ in the latest patch :cry::cry:

I quit for now !
 
I think Failaxis should be given props for finally recognizing how Hawaii played a major role in world history !

However, I do equally blame them for nerfing my pet civ in the latest patch :cry::cry:

I quit for now !

Maya got beaten down by the nerf hammer, as well. "Ow*
 
Maya got beaten down by the nerf hammer, as well. "Ow*
I can feel your pain, especially if you were Mayan born. But I don't feel the civ's acomplishments compare to Hawaii's.
I am a professional Hawaiian, you see, so I know what I'm talking about, trust me.

I won't return until they implement other major civs like Papua New Guinea, which I've been known to impersonate to great effect :dance:

I quit for now !
 
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I can feel your pain, especially if you were Mayan born. But I don't feel the civ's acomplishments compare to Hawaii's.
I am a professional Hawaiian, you see, so I know what I'm talking about, trust me.

I won't return until they implement other major civs like Papua New Guinea, which I've been known to impersonate to great effect :dance:

I quit for now !

I am not Mayan but Mongolia, the Mayans and the Incans are my favourite Civs to play. Especially in CivVI. I think I will fire up a Mayan game next. 👍

Anyway, may you always get pineapples as Hawaii or whatever luxuries they usually get. 😉
 
hm... more streamlined? In a way yes (it's generally less clunky). More railroading? Also, in a way yes (e.g., distant lands that you can't interact with even if you manage to get there in antiquity). It depends a lot on the play style how negative that is, I think. If your goal is to fulfill the legacy goals asap, then it probably feels more railroaded. However, if this is why you play civ, the previous games in which you decided on victory condition at the civ selection screen aren't really better imho.

But interestingly, some of the streamlining also give a lot of freedom to the player. Now that you can't beeline through the whole tree and try to rush through the ages as fast as possible, you can actually enjoy the ages much more and get a lot of flexibility for "what do I want to do/achieve" for the next 100 turns. In the previous games (at least for me), this often came down to the steps I felt necessary to achieve a victory at the end or to stay generally competitive. Now, I feel much less restrained and choose more diverse goals for the ages (settle and conquer that whole area, get maximum culture output, try to keep city count low, be a trade master for one age, be a builder for one age, etc.), and often ones that won't be absolutely necessary or even much helpful for the next age. Civ 7 allows these sidesteps easily: I was Carthage and focused on coast, exploration, colonization, and trade. Somehow, the coast had many mountain ranges, so I chose to go with Inka and my goal for the exploration age was to grow my cities as much as possible. Then I go Siam to capitalize on this growth and wrap up the game in any way I want. In the mindset of an earlier civ title it would have been more like: I was X and started with Z, so my next civ choice needs to be about Z as well, otherwise I won't stay competitive in Z, and without being competitive in Z, I can't win W. To me, there is less freedom there (as long as you care about staying competitive/victories - if you don't, then neither is very limiting of course).

And as a self-observation: I went from trying to achieve the legacy goals in the first games to playing how I felt in the moment. Now, I set up 1 or 2 legacy paths but then actively avoid finishing these too early to enjoy the present age in a deeper, prolonged way.
Saying the game gives you more freedom really is just polite way of saying choices do not matter and in fact nothing matters.

When things have no meaning or don't matter you can have the 'freedom' to do whatever you want.

Interestingly having the freedom to do different things seems to involve making up your own challenges.

That is a valid argument for a sandbox builder game which doesn't have or only has loose guidance goals/victory conditions like Cities Skylines or Rimworld but Civ is not meant to be a sand box builder game. Although I did previously comment that it would probably have been better as a sandbox builder game.

Civ is not a sandbox builder series, civ 7 is not meant to be a sandbox builder game where you make your own challenges. It is meant to a 4x grand strategy game. It is a poor 4x grand strategy game that is so easy that people feel the need and can treat it like a sandbox builder game which only emphasizes that the game design is actually boring, lacking content and extremely easy.
 
Civ is not meant to be a sand box builder game
I don't know. For me, it always was and still is. And reading the complaints that 7 isn't enough of a sandbox, it seems that at least some others agree. It's not a popularity contest though. Suffice to say: civ has many different target groups and player types, and trying to keep them all together is one of its problems, but also one of the reasons why the older games are still popular.

re: freedom and choices mattering. I just prefer to actually have a choice over feeling that I always need to play/choose optimally. This way, the choices I make actually matter to me instead of mattering for the game. ;)

"Making your own challenges" has always been a big part of civ for me. Whether getting a certain victory with a civ that isn't suited for it, conquering the map before gunpowder units, playing peaceful until nukes, getting as many wonders as possible, trying to win without a certain tech, playing with only 1 city, playing with as many cities as possible, always war, always peace, role-play my civ/leader, etc. These describe some of the goals that I had in civ games in the past 30 years. And they are one reason why I usually play a bit below the highest difficulty. I play many 4x games (e.g., Humankind, Endless Legend, Age of Wonders) and many grand strategy games (EU4, CK3) in this way, by the way, so I may just be an odd player. :yup:
 
What I think the designers ought to aim for (not least for economic reasons, since there are the two kinds of players) is a game that sets victory conditions and that offers meaningful challenge to those who want to work for victory (i.e. the possibility of the AI beating the player), but that can also be played as a sandbox game by players who prefer that.

Admittedly that is a significant design challenge.

I think it's best faced by designing the game backwards from the victory conditions, with the thought being "how could a computer achieve these victories effectively?" And then by making the game so rich in detail that players could set their own alternate goals. I once played Morrowind without playing the main questline at all. My character was a daedra hunter (but couldn't kill any other kind of creature). He followed guild and house quests that gave him the opportunity to kill daedra. He had his own goal. It was possible for him to set it for himself given all of the "stuff" that is in the world of Morrrowind, even though it utterly ignored the game's own "victory condition." Morrowind had to have its official victory condition in order to have something to build all of that stuff around. But once that is in place, there is room for sandboxy elements as well.

Or even better, the players who built pillow forts. That was intended by none of the designers, but b/c objects could be picked up and moved, and b/c one of the objects was pillows, people were able to use game mechanics that served the main story for a kind of satisfaction different altogether.
 
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What I think the designers ought to aim for (not least for economic reasons, since there are the two kinds of players) is a game that sets victory conditions and that offers meaningful challenge to those who want to work for victory (i.e. the possibility of the AI beating the player), but that can also be played as a sandbox game by players who prefer that.

Admittedly that is a significant design challenge.

I think it's best faced by designing the game backwards from the victory conditions, with the thought being "how could a computer achieve these victories effectively?" And then by making the game so rich in detail that players could set their own alternate goals. I once played Morrowind without playing the main questline at all. My character was a daedra hunter (but couldn't kill any other kind of creature). He followed guild and house quests that gave him the opportunity to kill daedra. He had his own goal. It was possible for him to set it for himself given all of the "stuff" that is in the world of Morrrowind, even though it utterly ignored the game's own "victory condition."
I'm more and more convinced that the core structure of 7 is totally broken. I'm committed to the idea that in the first expansion, the game has to be split in two. An even more streamlined online mode (say, where all commander upgrades are universal to all commanders with fewer upgrade options, integrated into the attribute tree; where any wonder only gives you settlement cap upgrade, attribute points or something going directly to victory). And a completely redone singleplayer mode (which of course should be playable in multiplayer as a shared world).

The problem right now is that everything is calibrated to this 100 turn cadence, so everything is broken down at all times into a tier one phase, tier two wasting your time, and a tier three that barely happens before the age abruptly ends. Most of the unique features that make civs distinct are piddling little bonuses so as not to throw the balance out of whack. This is kind of insane if you think about how many different ways you can provide little bonuses that also don't mean enough on their own to give a decisive advantage.

It's really cool that each civ is unique, and some of the bonuses are really neat, but then you end up jamming one or two bonuses into a very restricted 100 turn cadence, and one of three things happens:
  1. You employ the bonus and snowball the age.
  2. The bonus is particularly oblique, either an underpowered civ, or a poor start location, so you never really use it.
  3. You build the unique civ buildings and are getting their benefit, but it never seems to matter. You don't feel anything. Sure you're getting +8% more culture than otherwise thanks to your neat little Acropolis, but everything else you're doing affects your game more than that 8%.
The problem with the design is that each of the above three outcomes is sub-par. They're all disappointing in their own way, with the power fantasy snowball outcome being the only one that feels fun, but it also breaks the game and makes it less fun to keep playing.

An example of a system that would solve this is if you collected these civ unique bonuses over time, like a roleplay, and built up your empire into a quilt of unique abilities. You might end up picking up buildings or abilities that end up not becoming useful, but then you'd know to not build those buildings and the opportunity cost of picking up that ability is just part of the game, because you'd still have other bonuses and abilities to try and use and optimize. Civ 7 is just really weird about its on-rails approach and ironically given they wanted to avoid this, your starting location matters more than ever. Production is king and that really constrains gameplay as well.

Right now I feel that Antiquity is too sensitive to starting location and there are overpowered and underpowered civs/leaders, and there's basically a solved if not totally refined meta. Then Exploration happens and rough seas is tedious until you find all the good distant lands spots are taken by distant lands powers, and then the religion is the most god-awful, tedious thing that I'll dread engaging with when I play exploration. Modern I like actually, but balance-wise it's very messed up and the AI's performance and what happens or not with war is completely inconsistent. AI doesn't try very hard to race for victory, and I'm sure if it did it would just frustratingly win abruptly all the time. The game is just broken. It's like a beautiful, but inferior civ clone with a few neat ideas, but they don't come together well.

I think the only fix for the game is to stretch out each age. To make Antiquity a 250 turn ordeal with expanded and diversified tech tree and religious system. To role play your empire so you can pick up units, civic, techs, ideas from many different historic civs based on context, maybe trade. Then Exploration is specifically a crusades and colonization scenario with a much more in depth colonization system similar to Civ IV Colonization. And Modern should be a World War scenario with a kind of ongoing narrative driven crisis that starts very early in the age.

Again, each age would need many added features, added units, more flow, less adherence to tight balance within a gamified cadence. Modern should have a more involved resource management and production/logistics mini-game. It doesn't have to be crazy, not even as involved as a Railroad Tycoon, but much more than what it is. Then, during the world war phases, that production mini-game should convert into war production, so it's not Antiquity-style hammers and corn yields, but specifically the factory network that's spawning your troops.

I can't see this age-based system working without the kind of depth I mentioned. Right now it's too repetitive, tedious, with either oblique or overpowered bonuses, to rigidly adherent to a repeated cadence and solved meta.

As to your point about sandbox, what I think you're really getting at is how Civ 7's abrupt age ends and tight balance designed to get you there means you never really feel like you can sit comfortably in your empire. It's like you're always running behind, trying to catch up to get just one or two more great works or resources, and then it's all torn down right as you're nearing a peak and you have to start over the stressful, painful, tedious process of building up again. It therefore loses that key civ sensation of zooming out and looking at your massive empire as former uninhabited valleys which you marched troops and scouts passed many times are now full of farms and districts you built. That sense of history
 
What I think the designers ought to aim for (not least for economic reasons, since there are the two kinds of players) is a game that sets victory conditions and that offers meaningful challenge to those who want to work for victory (i.e. the possibility of the AI beating the player), but that can also be played as a sandbox game by players who prefer that.
I disagree. We have a plethora of 4x/strategy games these days that do the self-defined victory very well. Civ's defined victory standards are now something that differentiate it from its competition. Perhaps 20 years ago there would have been more of a gap in the market for the type of gameplay you suggest. Now that gap is filled.
 
But in my system, there would be both, and the one you favor as the central one.
 
But in my system, there would be both, and the one you favor as the central one.
I don't think a game can or should be all things to all people. I do not see how a 4x/strategy game like Civ can successfully have a system with and without victory standards.

Also, it should be noted that generally these games that lack victory standards are of the type where every player/AI does not start in approximately the same place. For example, in EU4 your game experience is very different playing as France versus a one province minor. In such a game, it makes sense to allow the player to define their own standards for victory.
 
Started my second game of Civ7 yesterday… and i like it a bit more now, but i don‘t know, the graphics are looking nice, it has indeed interesting ideas on board, improvements here and there, i can see all this, but i can‘t tell why i have absolutely no fun playing it. It still feels like work. Maybe it will grow on me, maybe it will be improved with time, but… for now i have to say: The „just one more turn“ feeling is gone.

I still refuse to quit it though.
 
What I think the designers ought to aim for (not least for economic reasons, since there are the two kinds of players) is a game that sets victory conditions and that offers meaningful challenge to those who want to work for victory (i.e. the possibility of the AI beating the player), but that can also be played as a sandbox game by players who prefer that.

Admittedly that is a significant design challenge.

I think it's best faced by designing the game backwards from the victory conditions, with the thought being "how could a computer achieve these victories effectively?" And then by making the game so rich in detail that players could set their own alternate goals. I once played Morrowind without playing the main questline at all. My character was a daedra hunter (but couldn't kill any other kind of creature). He followed guild and house quests that gave him the opportunity to kill daedra. He had his own goal. It was possible for him to set it for himself given all of the "stuff" that is in the world of Morrrowind, even though it utterly ignored the game's own "victory condition." Morrowind had to have its official victory condition in order to have something to build all of that stuff around. But once that is in place, there is room for sandboxy elements as well.

Or even better, the players who built pillow forts. That was intended by none of the designers, but b/c objects could be picked up and moved, and b/c one of the objects was pillows, people were able to use game mechanics that served the main story for a kind of satisfaction different altogether.
This can be easily achieved and is achieved in many games by the use of the difficulty system.

If you want a challenge play higher difficulty. If you want a chill, make up your own game feel play on low difficulty.

The problem with civ 7 is the game is so easy and shallow there is no challenge even at the hardest difficulty. And a lot of this is down the samey, boring gameplay design/mechanics.

It might be a reasonable sandbox builder game if that is your thing but it is never challenging apart from dealing with the poor UI and the lack of or even sometimes misleading basic information it provides.

The really revealing discussions are when something is obviously bugged but people don't know if the bug is that it does do something or if the bug is because it doesn't do something because players don't know what is actually meant to be correct.
 
That's exactly how I see a Civ game offering both challenge and sandbox. If you build a capacity for AI opponents to win the game into the basic design, that would have two dimensions: programming for building a good civ in general, and programming for pursuing a particular victory condition. At the highest difficulty, the AI does both. As you lower the difficulty level, the AI just builds a good civ. So if all the player wants to do is pursue some general objective meaningful to him or her, that player can do so in the midst of other civs just basically minding their own business.

And yes, everything I hear suggests that Civ 7 doesn't have that first dimension (but also doesn't make sandbox play particularly fun). Instead of my both/and or AD1730's either/or, they got neither/nor.
 
I disagree. We have a plethora of 4x/strategy games these days that do the self-defined victory very well. Civ's defined victory standards are now something that differentiate it from its competition. Perhaps 20 years ago there would have been more of a gap in the market for the type of gameplay you suggest. Now that gap is filled.
Civ victories are this prize that waits at the end of a long road to finally validate your efforts building your empire. They also provide broad goals so you can measure your progress against other empires. They're not meant as a thing to necessarily race towards and be totally beholden to, outside of tight competitive matches that actually ought to be imposing their own victory conditions unique to multiplayer.
 
Civ is not a sandbox builder series, civ 7 is not meant to be a sandbox builder game where you make your own challenges. It is meant to a 4x grand strategy game. It is a poor 4x grand strategy game that is so easy that people feel the need and can treat it like a sandbox builder game which only emphasizes that the game design is actually boring, lacking content and extremely easy.
Every iteration after Civ4 struggles very much to gather enough 'x's to get the 4 of them.

As for Civ7, the sheen of newness is wearing off extremely fast for me. I'm beginning to suspect it might be even more lame than Civ6. What is the point of continuing to do the turns when you know for sure that you've won?

In Civ6 that meant that if you were still present on the map after turn 70-80, you'd most probably already won on standard deity settings. Certainly so after turn 100.

But here, Civ7 seems not even to leave the possibility for you to be killed early. Yes, you might struggle a bit in Antiquity, but then the transition to Exploration will come, which just kills the AI stone dead. And Modern is just absolutely pointless to play, you know that after a certain amount of very tedious clicks you'll have won, no other options. What's the point of playing at all then? After a few games you realise that the gameplay offers no stories, despite all the "narrative events". It is just the same all over again, just stack your bonuses. Civ7 solved no problems of Civ6, it migh even made them worse. I've uninstalled Civ6 out of frustration with the neglect of the devs as regards the UI and AI after a few years of playing. I see the same pattern developping here in Civ7 and I'm on the verge of ditching it before I'm even 10 games in.

I've just completed a game on Immortal where a blizzard sailed in and pillaged my crewed rocket 1 turn from launching and reset all the progress. I had to press 'next turn' 9 more turns plus make other multiple clicks at random which had absolutely no value, they just were annoying. It made no difference whatsoever, apart from 9 turns more of me almost screaming 'lemme finish this now!' This game looks just more and more pathetic with every next playthrough.
 
Saying the game gives you more freedom really is just polite way of saying choices do not matter and in fact nothing matters.

When things have no meaning or don't matter you can have the 'freedom' to do whatever you want.

Interestingly having the freedom to do different things seems to involve making up your own challenges.

That is a valid argument for a sandbox builder game which doesn't have or only has loose guidance goals/victory conditions like Cities Skylines or Rimworld but Civ is not meant to be a sand box builder game. Although I did previously comment that it would probably have been better as a sandbox builder game.

Civ is not a sandbox builder series, civ 7 is not meant to be a sandbox builder game where you make your own challenges. It is meant to a 4x grand strategy game. It is a poor 4x grand strategy game that is so easy that people feel the need and can treat it like a sandbox builder game which only emphasizes that the game design is actually boring, lacking content and extremely easy.

Disagree. I love Civ VI because I can set my own goals and it isn't all about victory. Getting the highest yield for a mountain with the Inca, the highest goal per turn from a trade route or the most Mayan cities crammed around my capital (still haven't got the maximum yet) are all fun for me. A near always war Viking game with a raiding economy is a nice change of pace. Maybe the all food bonuses religion with the Khmer for gigantic cities.

To me, it's a fantastic sandbox that lets me play the game in a variety of ways and I'm not shoehorned into a certain way of playing.

It's the journey and not the destination. Just like EU's Paradox series where you set your own goals and challenges/handicaps.
 
At one point I definitely remember civ being more of a strategy game than a sandbox sim game, or at least doing well enough at both that I didn’t notice the sim game, and I guess if you preferred the former it will be hard to be convinced actually you should like the latter.
 
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