I Want Out

[esemjay]

The idea that the gaming industry is somehow indebted to the gaming industry is preposterous. The reason Steam can operate the way they do is because they teeter on the edge between "Service" and "Product." To claim that Steam is violating your consumer rights by disallowing you to use their product is incorrect- on the grounds that it isn't a product at all.

Steam is like an Arcade. You walk inside, buy a bunch of tokens, and walk around looking for games you want to play (As you don't actually own any of the games you buy, either. You basically "rent" them.). If you break the rules of the arcade, they kick you out. Because the games use the arcade- you cannot get to them either; but not because they are denying you the right to use the software... directly.

It would be like suing your ISP company for disabling your internet (for any number of reasons), and now you can't play WOW or get on Facebook.

That said... in the EULA:

3. Transfer. You may make a one time permanent transfer to all your rights to install and use the Software to another individual or legal entity provided that: (a) the technical protection measures used by the Software supports such transfers; (b) you also transfer this License and all copies of the Software; (c) you retain no copies of the Software, upgrades, updates or prior versions; and (d) the receiving party accepts the terms and conditions of this License. You may not be able to transfer the right to receive updates, dynamically served content, or the right to use any online service of EA in connection with the Software. You may not be able to transfer the Software if you have already exhausted the terms of this License by authenticating the Software on the allowed number machines. Subsequent recipients of this License may not be able to authenticate the Software on additional machines. EA may require that any end user of the Software register the Software online as a condition of use and/or purchase additional licenses. NOTWITHSTANDING THE FOREGOING, YOU MAY NOT TRANSFER PRE-RELEASE COPIES OF THE SOFTWARE.

Steam EULA

 

[QuantumProjects]

I was in the exact same shoe!!!!!
I was pretty upset at the quality of Civ V initially as well.

But the part I love the most about the Civ series is the company actually cares after game releases. They monitor this forum closely and makes appropriate changes rapidly via patches.

When Civ IV first came out, it had it's problem too.
Too bad it didn't work out for you.

I don't think you're actually talking about Civ5. As for now, no patch was released to address issues mentioned by civfanatics, but they only patched the game to prevent human players from using sucessful strategies by changing civics, buildings and such.

So, if they were really concerned about our opinion, we would have heard of things like MP improvements and better AI. I think they'll sell "better AI" and "MP improvements" as DLC, if you ask me, instead of providing them for free to people who rightfully deserve them.

 

[Solo4114]

Whilst this is technically correct, a legally binding contract cannot legally contain clauses that are in conflict with the laws of the jurisdiction in which the contract was made. If there is a statute that says "thou shall not....", then a contract cannot say "in this case, thou can."

This is why all commercial contracts have a clause that says if any clause is deemed unenforceable by a court, then that clause is struck from the contract and the remainder is enforceable.

The EULA can not take away your legal rights.

That's not strictly true.

At least here in the U.S., a EULA CAN "take away" your "rights" because you agree to GIVE them away by clicking "I agree" or "Accept" or whathaveyou.

Also, the first sale doctrine is a limitation on the copyright act and the rights of the copyright holder, not a restriction on contractual terms.

In other words, you can't be sued for infringement of copyright if you sell your purchased copy of a DVD or CD or whathaveyou to someone else. If you've agreed to a EULA that prohibits it, however, you could legally be sued for breach of contract. More likely, though, the copyright holder would simply deactivate your account or make it so that the software is unusable.


This kind of stuff only really makes it to court in larger-scale cases, like a company buying multiple copies of a particular bit of software and transferring it to a successor company after a merger or whathaveyou.


It's not a slam-dunk that a judge would declare such a clause unenforceable, considering that the user actually agrees to all of the terms, and that it's questionable whether an actual "sale" occurred. This gets even more questionable when you're dealing with software that is downloaded and can be deactivated by the entity from which you downloaded it at any time.



It's a moot point, though, from a practical perspective. Steam and 2k are unlikely to sue.

 

[The_J]

The idea that the gaming industry is somehow indebted to the gaming industry is preposterous. The reason Steam can operate the way they do is because they teeter on the edge between "Service" and "Product." To claim that Steam is violating your consumer rights by disallowing you to use their product is incorrect- on the grounds that it isn't a product at all.

You should not bet on that.
Yesterday, the german federal court "forwarded" an ongoing process Oracle vs. UsedSoft about reselling of used software licenses to the european court, because restricting that option could be against the rule 2009/24/EG (no english sources, only german, but google translate does a relatively good job there, click).

 

[Sonereal]

I give up. It's now clear Firaxis doesn't understand or even care with what's wrong with Civ 5.

You know. You had me at "I give up" but apparently you didn't because you followed up what should've been a single sentence thread that would get locked to generic rant #19 in your opening. I'll admit, it got straight to the point and veered off but at least it got somewhere right off the bat. I'll give you 8/10 because your thread title is a great attention grabber meant for quite more than just venting, but for gaining attention so your thread will grow from what should've been a locked duplicate rant which is TOTALLY something that hasn't been discussed to the point of nausea several times in several different threads with slightly altered names, to a three-page "break out" thread.

I'm angry with the ridiculous lies that came out of Firaxis and 2K.

Corporations? Lying? Blasephemy.

I'm angry with myself for believing a company like Firaxis that only seems to exist due to the goodwill of civ fanatics wouldn't tell so many porkies.

Firaxis exists because people bought the game. Unless your labor under the delusion that Civfanatics is the center of the Civilization community or that the 200,000 users here all bought the game (which wouldn't warrant a sequel anyway or more patches), this sentence is flawed. I don't even understand the latter part but maybe because I don't make up phrases or use obscure ones when ranting on the internet.

I'm angry that I trusted Firaxis wouldn't screw it up again after Civ 3 and that they finally understood what makes Civ fun.

Boils down to "I can't believe they did this again hur hur!"

I'm angry that I thought giving a young boyish looking graduate with a cheesy grin the job of designing the new civ was a good idea.

Yes. How dare they give college graduates the task of designing games not targeted to the 30+ crowd. By now, I'm starting to sense you have trust issues. Did you really trust a corporation this much? That's kinda....weird. Corporations are supposed to make money. Making you happy is secondary.

I'm also angry with myself for pre-ordering cause Civ 4 was so darn good I figured they couldn't totally screw it up.

At this point I'm noticing a pattern. You're mad because you pre-ordered a game and I guess you want your money back. Though, there was no reason to pre-order given that its unlikely your store or Steam are suddenly going to run out of copies.

I'm angry that I not only bought more memory, but a new graphics card just to run Civ 5. All up, Civ 5 cost me $200!

This is really starting to sound more like your fault. No one told you to spring for a new graphics card. You did that yourself. You blindly trusted a gaming corporation and was smacked down for it. I have no sympathy for someone who has enough money to spring $150 for more memory and a graphics card for just one game.

U mad?

I want to sell it but I'm wondering if there anything stopping me from doing so.

EULA.

As long as I hand over my Steam account details to the buyer it should be ok right?

No.

This whole episode has made me suspicious. Who knows what I've signed away by agreeing to the Steam Subscriber Agreement.

You would know if you READ THE AGREEMENT.

Moderator Action: Please don't troll other users.

 

[esemjay]

You should not bet on that.
Yesterday, the german federal court "forwarded" an ongoing process Oracle vs. UsedSoft about reselling of used software licenses to the european court, because restricting that option could be against the rule 2009/24/EG (no english sources, only german, but google translate does a relatively good job there, click).

Excerpt:

According to that required a one-selling copyrighted work as a CD-ROM with software, then no approval of the licensor's more. His rights have been "exhausted" with the first sale.

As I understand this quote, the copyrighter forfeits claim over the software if it is distributed on a physical media; which implies that, if it was done digitally, the license still belongs to the company. I may be misinterpreting this passage, however.

I would not dispute the legality of transferring of a CD, so long as you do not keep a copy of the software- in which case, you are costing the company money. This is fine with physical media, because the CD is the copy-protection. Whoever possesses the "retail" CD is the rights-holder.

Such stipulations do not exist in Steam's case. By transferring the account, you are essentially giving someone a copy of the software. It would be like giving someone the retail CD, and keeping a copy of it. Even if you don't reinstall it, you still possess an illegal copy. With Steam, you still retain the ability to log in and use the account you gave away... leaving Steam with "the honor system" copy protection.

It is the willingness to steal from the company that makes "I promise not to log in" an unconvincing argument with copy protection. In the case of an account transfer (100% digital) you retain the ability to use the software, and they can freeze your account for account sharing.

To quote the EULA:

[...]
IF YOU INSTALL the Software, the terms and conditions of this License are fully accepted by you.
[...]
A. Grant. [...] Your license will terminate immediately if you attempt to circumvent the technical protection measures for the Software.
[...]
B. Restrictions. [...] You are prohibited from making a copy of the Software available on a network where it could be used by multiple users. You are prohibited from making the Software available over a network where it could be downloaded by multiple users.
[...]
6. Termination. This License is effective until terminated. Your rights under this License will terminate immediately and automatically without any notice from EA if you fail to comply with any of the terms and conditions of this License. Promptly upon termination, you must cease all use of the Software and destroy all copies of the Software in your possession or control. Termination will not limit any of EA’s other rights or remedies at law or in equity. Sections 5 - 10 of this License shall survive termination or expiration of this License for any reason.
[...]

Given that their service is entirely digital, and that by using the software, you are agreeing to the terms above (I specifically outlined the terms regarding lawful termination of the account). If you acquired Civ5 on a CD, then you are legally allowed to transfer the CD- however, if it was downloaded media, then you cannot transfer the account.

However, even if you purchased the game online- Steam allows you to transfer the game while not violating the EULA. Since they are controlling (not prohibiting) the transfer of contracts between Steam accounts (and therefor users), I doubt that a suit against EA for termination of service based on account-transfer would hold up.

 

[Airey]

... MP improvements and better AI. I think they'll sell "better AI" and "MP improvements" as DLC, if you ask me, instead of providing them for free to people who rightfully deserve them.

True, these 2 areas can do better. I give up on MP recently coz of it.

...they only patched the game to prevent human players from using sucessful strategies by changing civics, buildings and such.

We have fundamental difference here: I don't believe in teching only to the Classical age "successful strategies." Early Rush that doesn't need coordination from other game aspect is not strategical. Just mouse clicking, same game, every game.

I don't think you're actually talking about Civ5. As for now, no patch was released to address issues mentioned by civfanatics, but they only patched the game to prevent human players from using sucessful strategies by changing civics, buildings and such.

List of Forum issues and patches:

Warring
Deity Warrior Rush - very smart by a very good player.
but a Warrior Rush win on Deity is just stupid any new player can do so without needing to pay attention to other areas of the game
Horseman Nerf - pre-patch, it was a race to who can execute the best, again no strategy needed
Worker in Warring - takes away defender's movement point to expose AI units onto flatland

Social Policy
Meritocracy nerf + AI ICSing
China's GG nerf - China's Scout Rush is just
Tradition boost

Research
Beaker Overflow
Library Specialist Nerf - I have no opinion on this, this was actually a very impressive strategy by Martin
RA manipulation - suspected it was doable, looks like they did it on purpose, no patches

Puppet built preference

These are just on top of my head right now. I remember seeing more.
Granted most of it is nerfing Human advantage, not exactly the best compromise for "better AI." But it does make the game more strategical and makes it worthwhile to build "the civilization." Still light years behind Civ IV. But it's a good start.

 

[WimpyTheWarrior]

There was a thread Is it possible to sell my Civ V from Steam back in late December on this topic. The specific EULA of the Civilization V game allows transfer of the game license. Note the following paragraph in the "Read Me English.pdf" file. under the section End User License Agreement

However, you may transfer the entire Software and accompanying documentation on a permanent basis to another person as long as you retain no copies (including archival or backup copies) of the Software, accompanying documentation, or any portion or component of the Software accompanying documentation, and the recipient agrees to the terms of this Agreement. The Software is intended for private use only.

The file can be found at C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\sid meier's civilization v.

I obtained the game, including this file with the embedded End User License Agreement, via digital download direct from Steam. The same paragraph was in the EULA that you clicked when you started the Civ-5 download.

That "Read Me English.pdf" file instructs you to go to http://www.take2games.com/eula/ for the current EULA that applies to Take2 Games products. That EULA (updated 31 Mar 2010) allows transfer of pre-recorded copies, and does not mention transfer of Civ-5 obtained from Steam. However when I last downloaded the game (after 31 Mar 2010) the on-line EULA preceeding the download was the more general one.

Also in the fine print of the Take2Games EULA is the stinger that "The parties agree that the UN Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods (Vienna, 1980) shall not apply to this Agreement or to any dispute or transaction arising out of this Agreement." That doesn't sound good for the little guy.

I think some legal jurisdictions would have a specific, more recent EULA (from 2K Games or Take2Games) superceed a earlier generic EULA (from Steam), And if your copy of Civ-V was obtained from a store (a pre-recorded copy) you would have a very specific clause in the Take2Games EULA in your favour. Obviously only a court of law could resolve competing EULAs.

 

[QuantumProjects]

We have fundamental difference here: I don't believe in teching only to the Classical age "successful strategies." Early Rush that doesn't need coordination from other game aspect is not strategical. Just mouse clicking, same game, every game.

In fact, here I was referring to some nerfs they've made to things such as the Library, the Scientist Specialist, and such.

Granted most of it is nerfing Human advantage, not exactly the best compromise for "better AI." But it does make the game more strategical and makes it worthwhile to build "the civilization." Still light years behind Civ IV. But it's a good start.

Here's exactly the problem: light years behind a game which came out five years before this new one. It is not a good start. A good start would be getting what they did right in Civ IV BTS and putting it in Civ V as foundations on which they would build the new game.

This isn't a step foward in the franchise, but two steps back, and patches will not change that. After several patches, Civ 5 may be as good as Civ IV, but then why they made Civ 5 in the first place, if it wasn't to be better than Civ 4?

 

[Shurdus]

I guess it depends on your philosophical ideals on property.

Not really, coming to an agreement about selling something and transferring property are two distinct and completely separate thing legally.

 

[lschnarch]

The idea that the gaming industry is somehow indebted to the gaming industry is preposterous. The reason Steam can operate the way they do is because they teeter on the edge between "Service" and "Product." To claim that Steam is violating your consumer rights by disallowing you to use their product is incorrect- on the grounds that it isn't a product at all.

"Goods and services" both count as products of a company.
Goods are material (tangible) products, services are immaterial (intangible).

(As you don't actually own any of the games you buy, either. You basically "rent" them.)

Which stands true for a book as well. I "rent" the right to read it whereever I want, how long I want, how often I want.
And I am free to resell the book (may it have been printed or "pressed" on a CD).

Steam EULA

You have noticed that you quoted from the EULA of an Electronic Arts product, no?

That's not strictly true.

At least here in the U.S., a EULA CAN "take away" your "rights" because you agree to GIVE them away by clicking "I agree" or "Accept" or whathaveyou.

So, by signing a contract to become a slave this would make slavery legal in the US?
I'm a bit sceptical about this.

Excerpt:

As I understand this quote, the copyrighter forfeits claim over the software if it is distributed on a physical media; which implies that, if it was done digitally, the license still belongs to the company. I may be misinterpreting this passage, however.

I am pretty sure you *ARE* misinterpreting the passage, as all the copyrighter can do is to hold the copyright (right to copy the result of the "intellectual property").
I don't see in which way this right should be bound to the media on which said result was distributed.

To quote the EULA:

Once again, an EA EULA.

 

[esemjay]

"Goods and services" both count as products of a company.
Goods are material (tangible) products, services are immaterial (intangible).

This runs into the next sentence:

I am pretty sure you *ARE* misinterpreting the passage, as all the copyrighter can do is to hold the copyright (right to copy the result of the "intellectual property").
I don't see in which way this right should be bound to the media on which said result was distributed.
[...]
Which stands true for a book as well. I "rent" the right to read it whereever I want, how long I want, how often I want.
And I am free to resell the book (may it have been printed or "pressed" on a CD).

The difference is, you own a physical copy. If you downloaded an eBook, and then made a copy for someone else's kindle, then you are essentially stealing the book. If you have a CD, and you make a copy, then sell it to someone else, then you are essentially stealing the book. If you purchase the book, and give the book to someone else, then you are no longer stealing the book... you are transferring ownership. In the OP's case, he is not talking about transferring the product- he's talking about duplicating both a service and a product.

You have noticed that you quoted from the EULA of an Electronic Arts product, no?
[...]
Once again, an EA EULA.

You're right, my mistake:

1. REGISTRATION AND ACTIVATION.
[...]
When you complete Steam's registration process, you create a Steam account ("Account"). Your Account may also include billing information you provide to us for the purchase of Subscriptions. You are solely responsible for all activity on your Account and for the security of your computer system. You may not reveal, share or otherwise allow others to use your password or Account. You agree that you are personally responsible for the use of your password and Account and for all of the communication and activity on Steam that results from use of your login name and password. You may not sell or charge others for the right to use your Account, or otherwise transfer your Account.
[...]
2. LICENSES
A. License Terms.
[...]
Valve hereby grants, and you accept, a limited, terminable, non-exclusive license and right to use the Software for your personal use in accordance with this Agreement and the Subscription Terms. The Software is licensed, not sold. Your license confers no title or ownership in the Software.
[...]
E. Restrictions
[...]
You are entitled to use the Software for your own use, but you are not entitled to: (i) sell, grant a security interest in or transfer reproductions of the Software to other parties in any way [...]
[...]
5. ONLINE CONDUCT, CHEATING AND ILLEGAL BEHAVIOR
[...]
[...] Valve may terminate your Account or a particular Subscription for any conduct or activity that Valve believes is illegal, constitutes a Cheat, or which otherwise negatively affects the enjoyment of Steam by other Subscribers. You acknowledge that Valve is not required to provide you notice before terminating your Subscriptions(s) and/or Account [...]

Steam's EULA is much less ambiguous about what is and is not allowed. NO Account Sharing, NO Account Selling, NO Account Renting, NO Account Transfers. "Accidental" transfer will be considered a breach of contract. Because Steam is licensed, not sold, the user infers no rights to the service. Any violations of the contract will result in termination, with or without notification, of your service.

I want to make special note of "That Valve believes is illegal." That's right. You don't even have to DO anything illegal... they just have to think you are doing something illegal.

Source

So, by signing a contract to become a slave this would make slavery legal in the US?
I'm a bit sceptical about this.

Technically, the contract would make it "indentured servitude," not slavery. However, the answer is both "yes" and "no". If you sign a contract that you will work for free, for an indeterminate amount of time, you can be held to the contract. At the same time, the Constitution of the United States plainly states "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." In order to have a "slave", you must disregard "all men are created equal".

Also, the 9th amendment (Unenumerated Rights), 13th Amendment (Abolishment of Slavery and Indentured Servitude), and 15th amendment (Denial of Suffrage) would be used as a justification that the contract was unlawful.

 

[Stretchy Man]

a hell of a lot

Mate, I said I was angry with myself. Let it go.

 

[lschnarch]

The difference is, you own a physical copy. If you downloaded an eBook, and then made a copy for someone else's kindle, then you are essentially stealing the book.

If I would make a copy of the printed book (you know, that is possible today) AND would make the copy accessible to somebody else, it would be just the same case as in the "kindle" case.

Breaking copyright is not bound to the "materiality" of the media.

If you have a CD, and you make a copy, then sell it to someone else, then you are essentially stealing the book. If you purchase the book, and give the book to someone else, then you are no longer stealing the book... you are transferring ownership. In the OP's case, he is not talking about transferring the product- he's talking about duplicating both a service and a product.

See above.
The "stealing" would be bound to the assumed fact that you would hold a copy for your own purposes.
Furthermore, I cannot see where the OP talks about "duplicating" anything.

Not to mention that duplicating itself is explicitely allowed under Steam's TOS, just not making such duplicates available to others,regardless of the fact whether you are after the duplication still able to access the "original" version for yourself or not.

This is a new development in how the industry deals with the customer and actually, it is quite endangering for the customer as he is losing rights.

 

[Pojman]

Stretchy, I figured this out within the first 5 days of the release of Civ 5. It was obvious to me, from how poorly designed the game was, that it was a scam to get my money. Sorry it took you so long.

 

[Soronery]

You could use just you know...play another game? Civ 5 is a decent game. It does have its flaws but it isn't really THAT bad.

 

[Stretchy Man]

Stretchy, I figured this out within the first 5 days of the release of Civ 5. It was obvious to me, from how poorly designed the game was, that it was a scam to get my money. Sorry it took you so long.

I played it for a week and have been patiently waiting for it to be fixed. Instead Firaxis just tweak the unit and social policy values. We could do that ourselves! When it was announced that Civ 5 was using Steam, I couldn't understand why so many people were complaining about it. I'm slowly getting it now.

You could use just you know...play another game? Civ 5 is a decent game. It does have its flaws but it isn't really THAT bad.

I don't like it. I want to sell it. You cool with that?

 

[PieceOfMind]

You can't sell the game. Depending on your location and how much effort you put in, you might be able to return it. That's about it.

 

[Lheim]

Touche. I'm used to a different kind of rule-set, where all of the laws read: "You can absolutely do Activity_X, unless Person_Y deems that you should not."


"It's okay if I breach my contract, so long as I can get away with it."
"It's okay if I steal a car, so long as I forge some registration."
"It's okay if I overdraft my bank account, so long as I report my checks stolen."

I'm sure that if they really wanted to, they could afford some really awesome lawyers to try to sue you for fraud.

EDIT: Also, if they're smart, they probably keep all of the information you suggested deleting (along with a lot of other identifiable information) on file in an archive somewhere that you can't get to it.

If a certain provision in a contract is illegal, you're under no obligation to obey it. If a certain provision in a contract is not only immoral, but forced down your throat .. then I figure you have a certain civil duty to disobey it. It is utterly immoral, pro-business lobby bullcrap that a consumer can not resell an item he has purchased legally. All done to prevent it is mere legal rambling and obfuscation, including any 'niceties' about a company being able to say 'Oh, they just bought a license, they didn't buy the game' and the company having the legal right and capability to shut off your ability to use a product you paid for.

What if Ford could shut off your car if you used Esso Gas instead of Shell?

 

[builer680]

You can't sell the game.

That's only according to the EULA. There's a way to do anything if you want to bad enough.