Idea: Castile instead of Spain

[Zaarin]

Though it does leave no obvious civ-switching path for exploration era Spain unless they become a former colony...

I expect that they will become a colony (Mexico) or France or Morocco (which is no weirder than Greece > Normans or Egypt > Songhai). NB I'm not suggesting Morocco is in the base game, but it's a logical inclusion at some point.

 

[Josephias]

I expect that they will become a colony (Mexico) or France or Morocco (which is no weirder than Greece > Normans or Egypt > Songhai). NB I'm not suggesting Morocco is in the base game, but it's a logical inclusion at some point.

Spain > Morocco is highly dangerous (think in the lines of Japan < > China), much more than France or Mexico. If there is a “modern” Italy, that could be the less controversial route.

 

[Zaarin]

Spain > Morocco is highly dangerous (think in the lines of Japan < > China), much more than France or Mexico.

There are indications we have Korea > Japan; I can't think of a more riot-inducing pathway. I don't think FXS is worried about stirring up controversy.

 

[The Fanatical]

I'm all for representing a civilization across all three Ages and I believe Firaxis wants to achieve this in the long run with expansions. I mean they did it with India and China in the base game, so why not for Spain too, but I have to confess that even If we get Castilian Spain in the Exploration Age and Habsburg/Bourbon Spain in the Modern Age, what are the odds of getting the Iberians in Antiquity? Slim at best? I guess the (Visi)Goths and Romans can work too though.

 

[Zaarin]

I guess the (Visi)Goths and Romans can work too though.

Goths, Romans, Phoenicians/Carthage--worth recalling that Iberia was strongly under Punic influence for centuries and Gader (Cadiz) was a major Punic colony. The Punic colonies were along the coast, but their influence extended over most of southern Iberia. I don't think we'll see Iberians, Tartessians, Celtiberians, Lusitanians etc. except as Independent Peoples.

 

[Leucarum]

Rome > Spain > Mexico is simultaneously one of the most historic paths you could get while not satisfyingly spanning a civ over the course of history.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Goths, Romans, Phoenicians/Carthage--worth recalling that Iberia was strongly under Punic influence for centuries and Gader (Cadiz) was a major Punic colony. The Punic colonies were along the coast, but their influence extended over most of southern Iberia. I don't think we'll see Iberians, Tartessians, Celtiberians, Lusitanians etc. except as Independent Peoples.

Unfortunately, while there is considerable archeological evidence of city states (Tartessos) and tribal heavyweights in Iberia, there is much less evidence of Leaders applicable to more than a small tribal group and (what I feel may be more important) except for their use as a Predecessor to later Spain, there isn't much to differentiate the Celtiberians, Lusitanians, et al from the larger Celtic and Gaullic communities across the border to the north.

Bottom line, if Celtiberians, Lusitanians and their ilk are going to be in the game, it will be as Gauls or (generic?) Celts for Antiquity, and/or more specific Celtic-derived groups like Irish or Scots later.

 

[Zaarin]

I was also thinking Phoenicia / Carthage -> Spain, but that's really more of a geographic one than a cultural one. By the time the WRE fell apart, the remaining elements of Punic culture in Iberia were miniscule...

I wouldn't say miniscule, but certainly less than in North Africa. Punic culture was one of the many building blocks in Antiquity Spain. (But I'll freely grant a smaller part than Celtic, Roman, Gothic, or Arabic/Berber influence.)

If they add Celts in the game, then I could see Celts -> Norman and Celts -> Spain both being plausible.

After finally getting the Gauls, I'll be disappointed if we go back to generic Celts.

there isn't much to differentiate the Celtiberians, Lusitanians, et al from the larger Celtic and Gaullic communities across the border to the north.

The Celtiberians were sophisticated metalsmiths, but they were less urbane than the Gauls. (The Lusitanians also probably weren't Celts, but they were culturally Celticized so that's at least somewhat irrelevant.)

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I wouldn't say miniscule, but certainly less than in North Africa. Punic culture was one of the many building blocks in Antiquity Spain. (But I'll freely grant a smaller part than Celtic, Roman, Gothic, or Arabic/Berber influence.)


After finally getting the Gauls, I'll be disappointed if we go back to generic Celts.


The Celtiberians were sophisticated metalsmiths, but they were less urbane than the Gauls. (The Lusitanians also probably weren't Celts, but they were culturally Celticized so that's at least somewhat irrelevant.)

Spain ever since the Bronze Age seems to have been considered a major source of both worked metal objects and raw ores. Example, the site of Los Millares (modern name), which by 2400 BCE had workshops for smelting and working copper, arsenical bronze, silver and gold, all defended by stone bastioned fortifications and with some evidence of contact with early Mycenean Greece and the Baltic coast. Later, of course, Greeks, Romans and Carthaginians/Phoenicians traded there for metal goods - at least, metals and ores are the most commonly-mentioned goods from Spain in all the accounts.

As important as they were, though, that's a thin branch to hang an entire Civ on . . .

 

[Zaarin]

As important as they were, though, that's a thin branch to hang an entire Civ on . . .

Hence my speculation that they'd be Independent Peoples at most.

Later, of course, Greeks, Romans and Carthaginians/Phoenicians traded there for metal goods - at least, metals and ores are the most commonly-mentioned goods from Spain in all the accounts.

Silver and iron were the chief commodities the Phoenicians traded in Spain, I believe. They made Gader very rich and the largest, wealthiest Phoenician colony in the west until Carthage took its spot.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Hence my speculation that they'd be Independent Peoples at most.


Silver and iron were the chief commodities the Phoenicians traded in Spain, I believe. They made Gader very rich and the largest, wealthiest Phoenician colony in the west until Carthage took its spot.

The Phoenician (original) Cities had closer sources for copper and arsenical ores on Cyprus, which were also heavily exploited from the Bronze Age: there have been some very interesting excavations done of port sites on the island in the past few years that illustrate a lot of early Phoenician influence.

Spanish Iron has an interesting twist to it, because it was from the Spanish iron-working/using Celtic or Celticoid tribes that the Romans adopted both the long and short stabbing swords and the heavy iron pilum that equipped most of the Imperial Roman Army. That may have been among the most long-lasting influences in the Classical world from Spain in the end . . .

 

[Zaarin]

As much as I'm loving this discussion and hate to tell a mod off for going off topic... I think we might have lost everyone else on this tangent haha

We're still discussing Spain.

 

[Zaarin]

But honestly, if we don't have the Yamnaya as a Bronze Age origin civilization for every Indo-European 2nd Age civilizations, FXS has irrevocably messed up

We'd need the Afanasievo culture for the Tocharians.

 

[RedCourtJester]

Castile also has the added bonus that you can justify a pre-Isabella leader, like Pelagius (the Kingdom of Asturias was a bridge between the Visigoths and Castile) or Urraca the Wreckless

Technically any leaders from other Iberian eras are justifiable now. Confucius wasn't Han, Ming, or Qing.

Salvador Dali or bust, really.

 

[Zaarin]

Technically any leaders from other Iberian eras are justifiable now. Confucius wasn't Han, Ming, or Qing.

Technically technically, Confucius leads Spain in Civ7 if you really want him to.

 

[Krajzen]

To play devil's advocate in this case and to be honest, Spain has the distinction of having kinda pathetic history from Napoleon's era until 1970s so it's not like we lose major player of 19th and 20th centuries who played a major role in great wars and adventures of those eras That may be the reason why devs didn't bother with modern Spain and focused on its glorious medieval and early modern eras - and we have many better slot uses than Castille.

At least that's what I took out from reading about the trainwreck of Spanish political history post Napoleon, its impotence against former colonies, inability to industrialize or get onto the train of new colonialism, insignificance in global affairs, civil war and then obscurantism of theocratic Franco regime. At several points in 20th century Spain had lower gdp per capita than several Eastern Europen countries and even its own colonies. And I'm not even talking about Czechoslovakia and Argentina but at one point Poland and Mexico lol.

On the other hand, I have always respected Spanish ability to somehow emerge as the "normal" Western country with high economic, political and social standards - after all this mediocrity and misery.

 

[RedCourtJester]

To play devil's advocate in this case and to be honest, Spain has the distinction of having kinda pathetic history from Napoleon's era until 1970s so it's not like we lose major player of 19th and 20th centuries That may be the reason why devs didn't bother with modern Spain (and we have many better slot uses than Castille).

At least that's what I took out from reading about the trainwreck of Spanish political history post Napoleon, its impotence against former colonies, inability to industrialize or get onto the train of new colonialism, insignificance in global affairs (and neutrality in both world wars), civil war and then obscurantism of theocratic Franco regime. At several points in 20th century Spain had lower gdp per capita than several Eastern Europen countries and even its own colonies. And I'm not even talking about Czechoslovakia and Argentina but at one point Poland and Mexico lol.

Well yeah, that's why I think leaving Spain out of modern era is totally justifiable. 500 years down the line when the major superpowers are BRICS, the Mexican Union, ASEAN+KJ, and whatever else is left of the OIC and EU, I wouldn't be crying that America is no longer represented in the contemporary era lol. Maybe then Australia will make more sense as a modern civ haha. Although who knows if there will even be a gaming market to sell games to!

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

To play devil's advocate in this case and to be honest, Spain has the distinction of having kinda pathetic history from Napoleon's era until 1970s so it's not like we lose major player of 19th and 20th centuries who played a major role in great wars and adventures of those eras That may be the reason why devs didn't bother with modern Spain and focused on its glorious medieval and early modern eras - and we have many better slot uses than Castille.

At least that's what I took out from reading about the trainwreck of Spanish political history post Napoleon, its impotence against former colonies, inability to industrialize or get onto the train of new colonialism, insignificance in global affairs, civil war and then obscurantism of theocratic Franco regime. At several points in 20th century Spain had lower gdp per capita than several Eastern Europen countries and even its own colonies. And I'm not even talking about Czechoslovakia and Argentina but at one point Poland and Mexico lol.

On the other hand, I have always respected Spanish ability to somehow emerge as the "normal" Western country with high economic, political and social standards - after all this mediocrity and misery.

Spain's collapse between 1600 and 1700 was so complete that when the War of the Spanish Succession broke out in 1702 the war was fought even in Spain almost entirely by Foreign Armies: English, French, and the HRE. The few regiments of Spanish troops at Blenheim in Germany in 1704 attached to the French armies were the only troops on that battlefield still carrying obsolete matchlock muskets and pikes - everybody else had abandoned both up to 20 years earlier.

In game terms, they never made it through the Crisis Period between Exploration and Modern Ages . . .

 

[Josephias]

Spanish Iron has an interesting twist to it, because it was from the Spanish iron-working/using Celtic or Celticoid tribes that the Romans adopted both the long and short stabbing swords and the heavy iron pilum that equipped most of the Imperial Roman Army. That may have been among the most long-lasting influences in the Classical world from Spain in the end . . .

That is why a Rome > Spain > Italy , specially if there are no Italian states to fill the gap in Exploration Age, is a very reasonable path: there is always been a lot of back and forth between the two peninsulae.
(although Venice presenting as a candidate is likely, and I’m betting on Marco Polo as one of the two leaders for crossroads of the world)

Goths > Spain > France is what you could call the “monarchy” path. Pelayo is told to descend for the Visigoth kings line that ruled the peninsula before they were displaced by the moors, and then the current Bourbon line is the reason the fleur-de-lys is placed over spain’s coat of arms.

 

[RedCourtJester]

That is why a Rome > Spain > Italy , specially if there are no Italian states to fill the gap in Exploration Age, is a very reasonable path: there is always been a lot of back and forth between the two peninsulae.
(although Venice presenting as a candidate is likely, and I’m betting on Marco Polo as one of the two leaders for crossroads of the world)

Goths > Spain > France is what you could call the “monarchy” path. Pelayo is told to descend for the Visigoth kings line that ruled the peninsula before they were displaced by the moors, and then the current Bourbon line is the reason the fleur-de-lys is placed over spain’s coat of arms.

This makes a lot of sense to me, that launch will be Rome -> Spain -> Italy, and at some point we will see the return of Venice or an equivalent. What remains to be seen is how they will make that gameplay substantially different from Portugal.