idea: scrap the fortify mission

[hr_oskar]

To be clear, since I may have seemed to be arguing for removal of fortify, I'm just in favor of the UI improvement and keeping the mechanic. Even without the mechanic, the AI needs to learn when to stay put because that by itself is often the best choice, fortified or not.

 

[Gazebo]

I think the best solution is just making the fortification bonus an immediate bonus you gain if you stay put with your full movement value, diminishing with the number of moves you have left. So if you don’t move, you get the full 25. If you move 1, you get 15, etc. Making it a multiple turn move is where the AI trips up.

G

 

[Tantro]

I think the best solution is just making the fortification bonus an immediate bonus you gain if you stay put with your full movement value, diminishing with the number of moves you have left. So if you don’t move, you get the full 25. If you move 1, you get 15, etc. Making it a multiple turn move is where the AI trips up.

G

That would be sexy as hell.

 

[CppMaster]

I think the best solution is just making the fortification bonus an immediate bonus you gain if you stay put with your full movement value, diminishing with the number of moves you have left. So if you don’t move, you get the full 25. If you move 1, you get 15, etc. Making it a multiple turn move is where the AI trips up.

G

Don't forget about special cases like Musketeer with 3 movement or moving on road, so a unit ends up with 0.5 points.
Do you plan to include it to the mod?

 

[raphaell666]

Briefing.
1. AI doesn't know how to use 'Fortify' option.
2. Current mechanic is a bit obscure even for human players.
3. Most of us don't want to lose the fortify bonus. How it is achieved is less important.
4. Siege units with siege promotions do extra damage against fortified units.
5. Does AI at least know how to hold a position? If this is the case then, does AI know not to attack to avoid losing fortified status?

To please everyone.
1. Remove 'Fortify' option. Change 'sleep' name for 'Hold position'. It leaves, 'Do nothing', 'Alert' and 'Hold position'. The chosen option will not affect whether the unit gets a fortify bonus.
2. Let units that can fortify get the bonus when the unit has not moved in the last turn. In case AI does not know not to attack, this would apply for units that have not moved from their tiles, even if they attacked.
3. Forget about double defense in forts. Forts already give a terrain bonus, and more than one turn fortifying it's not a simple mechanic in my book.
4. Fortify bonus only applies at defense, so there should be a tooltip somewhere saying 'this unit will fortify for next turn since it has not moved', for units that can fortify.
EDIT
5. Units will lose fortified status only when they abandon the 'fortified' tile. Attacking will have no effect as long as the unit doesn't abandon the tile.

I think that this is closer to an agreeable compromise. We would just have to think a few quirks such as should the fortify bonus automatically increase the longer you are in the same tile? I'd argue that it would be interesting if it did. If the fortify bonus increase is automatic when not moving from the tile (even when attacking), the AI would also use it even if it isn't exactly aware of it. I agree there should be tooltips making everything clear. A rough suggestion would be making the automatic Fortify for Land Melee Units increase defense by +10% for each turn not moving/changing tiles, up to 30% or 40% defense bonus, whereas for comparison Forts currently increase defense by 50% by default.

Another idea, wouldn't it also be possible to change it so that the Fortify bonus increases based on the number of unused movement points? I.e. if you move a Land Melee Unit 1 tile and still have 1 movement left, then tell it to do nothing for the rest of the turn, it gains a 10% defense fortification bonus. The next turn it does nothing with 2 movement points, gaining another 20% defense bonus, up to 30%. Not sure how the AI would deal with it.

I think if we could keep it as an interesting mechanic that you still have to consider to make full use of (i.e. not absolutely automatic full bonus on 1 turn that you don't even have to remember it exists anymore), while increasing its usability by the AI, that would be the best way.

EDIT: I did not see @Gazebo's reply, that is also an interesting option.

 

[Gazebo]

Don't forget about special cases like Musketeer with 3 movement or moving on road, so a unit ends up with 0.5 points.
Do you plan to include it to the mod?

It’d be based on your total moves, not a fixed value.

G

 

[tu_79]

I think the best solution is just making the fortification bonus an immediate bonus you gain if you stay put with your full movement value, diminishing with the number of moves you have left. So if you don’t move, you get the full 25. If you move 1, you get 15, etc. Making it a multiple turn move is where the AI trips up.

G

As long as it is easy to understand, I'm for it.

 

[raphaell666]

It’d be based on your total moves, not a fixed value.

G

If it was a fixed %defense value per 1 movement point it could also be interesting and make sense. As in, a more agile land melee unit (with more movement points) would be able to build their defenses and fortify their position faster.

 

[CrazyG]

I think the best solution is just making the fortification bonus an immediate bonus you gain if you stay put with your full movement value, diminishing with the number of moves you have left. So if you don’t move, you get the full 25. If you move 1, you get 15, etc. Making it a multiple turn move is where the AI trips up.

G

Yea this is what I was going towards. Units just dig in without being told to so.

On a related note, are people using forts often? It sounds like they don't. I find the long build time a barrier personally.

 

[vyyt]

On a related note, are people using forts often? It sounds like they don't. I find the long build time a barrier personally.

For me, the fact that you cannot improve the tile under the fort matters even more.

Edit: Damn you autocorrect!

 

[CppMaster]

Yea this is what I was going towards. Units just dig in without being told to so.

On a related note, are people using forts often? It sounds like they don't. I find the long build time a barrier personally.

I use them rarely to connect 2 seas or on border with aggressive neighbor along with citades.

 

[hr_oskar]

On a related note, are people using forts often? It sounds like they don't. I find the long build time a barrier personally.

I agree that the build time is quite long. The opportunity cost of it replacing other tile improvements is already a considerable cost, no-one is going to cheese the game by spamming forts even if they only took 2 turns to build (I'd think 4-6 turns would be adequate).

 

[hr_oskar]

I use them rarely to connect 2 seas or on border with aggressive neighbor along with citades.

Wait, this works? I somehow thought the canal feature wasn't actually in the current version.

 

[Stalker0]

Ultimately, I consider this topic a test of whether the community can actually commit to s gold version for the mod.

There is always going to be more to do...always. But once again a carrot is dangling in front of us, begging us to change fundamental game mechanics to make the game just a little bit better.

At some point the foot has to come down, and we have to say no more. When is that actually going to happen?

I can see support for giving the bonus to do nothing, because ultimately your just giving players something they already have, just more confidently. It’s actually more of a UI change than a gameplay one. But honestly...I would still be fine if we said that was too much.

 

[CppMaster]

Wait, this works? I somehow thought the canal feature wasn't actually in the current version.

Was it removed in one of recent patches? Couple of games ago it worked for me.

 

[Stalker0]

I agree that the build time is quite long. The opportunity cost of it replacing other tile improvements is already a considerable cost, no-one is going to cheese the game by spamming forts even if they only took 2 turns to build (I'd think 4-6 turns would be adequate).

Yeah for me if a fort doesn’t get built it’s vecaude i don’t want to overwrite a good tile.

That said I use forts for tall tradition play. My borders are often huge and far away from my cities. Further I am working specialists so the tile doesn’t matter. So i will build forts, especially right next to a citadel. The defense helps my small army defend against a larger one.

 

[Gazebo]

Ultimately, I consider this topic a test of whether the community can actually commit to s gold version for the mod.

There is always going to be more to do...always. But once again a carrot is dangling in front of us, begging us to change fundamental game mechanics to make the game just a little bit better.

At some point the foot has to come down, and we have to say no more. When is that actually going to happen?

I can see support for giving the bonus to do nothing, because ultimately your just giving players something they already have, just more confidently. It’s actually more of a UI change than a gameplay one. But honestly...I would still be fine if we said that was too much.

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with hashing out a concern. Clarifying and standardizing an existing feature to be easier for all to use (and more AI friendly) hardly breaks the bank. My proposal does this without changing much, and it allows for better AI play as well. Forts would still be decent, melee units would still fortify, etc, it would just be easier to predict what kind of bonus you would get.

 

[pineappledan]

My main concern is that the fortify modifier be left intact, so that pilum and volley still work. As long as the fortified state still exists in the game in a way which doesn't require scrapping a ton of little features that VP and the modders have made to modify it.

 

[Deadstarre]

I think the best solution is just making the fortification bonus an immediate bonus you gain if you stay put with your full movement value, diminishing with the number of moves you have left. So if you don’t move, you get the full 25. If you move 1, you get 15, etc. Making it a multiple turn move is where the AI trips up.

G

nobody will disagree with this because it sounds like it makes sense and its not negative in any way, and at the same time i personally do not see how thats going to improve anything for the AI. its an interesting idea on its own, but i really dont think its going to make any difference for them given what I see from their behavior regularly - so id say thats not worth any effort and not worth making a change for. if anything it would benefit the player more


for the handful of people in this thread who wanted to remove fortify altogether, here you go this is all you need =)

UPDATE Defines SET Value = '0' WHERE Name = 'FORTIFY_MODIFIER_PER_TURN';

 

[Gazebo]

nobody will disagree with this because it sounds like it makes sense and its not negative in any way, and at the same time i personally do not see how thats going to improve anything for the AI. its an interesting idea on its own, but i really dont think its going to make any difference for them given what I see from their behavior regularly - so id say thats not worth any effort and not worth making a change for. if anything it would benefit the player more


for the handful of people in this thread who wanted to remove fortify altogether, here you go this is all you need =)

UPDATE Defines SET Value = '0' WHERE Name = 'FORTIFY_MODIFIER_PER_TURN';

The AI is decent at finding a spot and ending a turn.

G