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idea: scrap the fortify mission

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by ilteroi, Apr 22, 2018.

  1. hr_oskar

    hr_oskar Deity

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    To be clear, since I may have seemed to be arguing for removal of fortify, I'm just in favor of the UI improvement and keeping the mechanic. Even without the mechanic, the AI needs to learn when to stay put because that by itself is often the best choice, fortified or not.
     
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  2. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I think the best solution is just making the fortification bonus an immediate bonus you gain if you stay put with your full movement value, diminishing with the number of moves you have left. So if you don’t move, you get the full 25. If you move 1, you get 15, etc. Making it a multiple turn move is where the AI trips up.

    G
     
  3. Tantro

    Tantro Chieftain

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    That would be sexy as hell.
     
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  4. CppMaster

    CppMaster King

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    Don't forget about special cases like Musketeer with 3 movement or moving on road, so a unit ends up with 0.5 points.
    Do you plan to include it to the mod?
     
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  5. raphaell666

    raphaell666 Chieftain

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    I think that this is closer to an agreeable compromise. We would just have to think a few quirks such as should the fortify bonus automatically increase the longer you are in the same tile? I'd argue that it would be interesting if it did. If the fortify bonus increase is automatic when not moving from the tile (even when attacking), the AI would also use it even if it isn't exactly aware of it. I agree there should be tooltips making everything clear. A rough suggestion would be making the automatic Fortify for Land Melee Units increase defense by +10% for each turn not moving/changing tiles, up to 30% or 40% defense bonus, whereas for comparison Forts currently increase defense by 50% by default.

    Another idea, wouldn't it also be possible to change it so that the Fortify bonus increases based on the number of unused movement points? I.e. if you move a Land Melee Unit 1 tile and still have 1 movement left, then tell it to do nothing for the rest of the turn, it gains a 10% defense fortification bonus. The next turn it does nothing with 2 movement points, gaining another 20% defense bonus, up to 30%. Not sure how the AI would deal with it.

    I think if we could keep it as an interesting mechanic that you still have to consider to make full use of (i.e. not absolutely automatic full bonus on 1 turn that you don't even have to remember it exists anymore), while increasing its usability by the AI, that would be the best way.

    EDIT: I did not see @Gazebo's reply, that is also an interesting option.
     
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  6. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    It’d be based on your total moves, not a fixed value.

    G
     
  7. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    As long as it is easy to understand, I'm for it.
     
  8. raphaell666

    raphaell666 Chieftain

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    If it was a fixed %defense value per 1 movement point it could also be interesting and make sense. As in, a more agile land melee unit (with more movement points) would be able to build their defenses and fortify their position faster.
     
  9. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Yea this is what I was going towards. Units just dig in without being told to so.

    On a related note, are people using forts often? It sounds like they don't. I find the long build time a barrier personally.
     
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  10. vyyt

    vyyt Emperor

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    For me, the fact that you cannot improve the tile under the fort matters even more.

    Edit: Damn you autocorrect!
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2018
  11. CppMaster

    CppMaster King

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    I use them rarely to connect 2 seas or on border with aggressive neighbor along with citades.
     
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  12. hr_oskar

    hr_oskar Deity

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    I agree that the build time is quite long. The opportunity cost of it replacing other tile improvements is already a considerable cost, no-one is going to cheese the game by spamming forts even if they only took 2 turns to build (I'd think 4-6 turns would be adequate).
     
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  13. hr_oskar

    hr_oskar Deity

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    Wait, this works? I somehow thought the canal feature wasn't actually in the current version.
     
  14. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Ultimately, I consider this topic a test of whether the community can actually commit to s gold version for the mod.

    There is always going to be more to do...always. But once again a carrot is dangling in front of us, begging us to change fundamental game mechanics to make the game just a little bit better.

    At some point the foot has to come down, and we have to say no more. When is that actually going to happen?

    I can see support for giving the bonus to do nothing, because ultimately your just giving players something they already have, just more confidently. It’s actually more of a UI change than a gameplay one. But honestly...I would still be fine if we said that was too much.
     
  15. CppMaster

    CppMaster King

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    Was it removed in one of recent patches? Couple of games ago it worked for me.
     
  16. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Yeah for me if a fort doesn’t get built it’s vecaude i don’t want to overwrite a good tile.

    That said I use forts for tall tradition play. My borders are often huge and far away from my cities. Further I am working specialists so the tile doesn’t matter. So i will build forts, especially right next to a citadel. The defense helps my small army defend against a larger one.
     
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  17. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    I don’t think there’s anything wrong with hashing out a concern. Clarifying and standardizing an existing feature to be easier for all to use (and more AI friendly) hardly breaks the bank. My proposal does this without changing much, and it allows for better AI play as well. Forts would still be decent, melee units would still fortify, etc, it would just be easier to predict what kind of bonus you would get.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2018
    seth4u2, Skidizzle, ElliotS and 4 others like this.
  18. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    My main concern is that the fortify modifier be left intact, so that pilum and volley still work. As long as the fortified state still exists in the game in a way which doesn't require scrapping a ton of little features that VP and the modders have made to modify it.
     
  19. Deadstarre

    Deadstarre Expert

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    nobody will disagree with this because it sounds like it makes sense and its not negative in any way, and at the same time i personally do not see how thats going to improve anything for the AI. its an interesting idea on its own, but i really dont think its going to make any difference for them given what I see from their behavior regularly - so id say thats not worth any effort and not worth making a change for. if anything it would benefit the player more


    for the handful of people in this thread who wanted to remove fortify altogether, here you go this is all you need =)

    Code:
    UPDATE Defines SET Value = '0' WHERE Name = 'FORTIFY_MODIFIER_PER_TURN';
     
  20. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    The AI is decent at finding a spot and ending a turn.

    G
     

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