Ideas for The Perfect 4X Historical Game

[Ryansinbela]

I’m just copying the lists

I tried to collect it
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EFYEcsnWeFfMZ51YKDUTokz5mT0tu6sqhZ9j8929u_w/edit

But where does Petroleum come from (or is it just another name for oil

I need help to check for inconsistencies and make it more concise

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Got a bunch of comments here, but first, let me say that you've gone into much more detail than I have in your overall concept. My own thinking has been based on getting better Historical connections between the Resources and the End Product of Amenity, Food, Production, Science, etc in the game, so I've delved a bit further into certain Resources and their consequences but haven't tried to put it all together into a single Concept Document yet.

On to Comments:

For instance, the resource of "Cow" has a yield of 3 Food, 1 Production and 1 Commerce.

2 Food from meat, as one cow carcass can feed a lot of people
1 Food from Dairy, as this is one of the main uses for Cows all over the world
1 Production from Labor, as Oxen are used for tilling the fields
1 Commerce from Fiber, representing Leather

Improving with a pasture adds +1 Production (labor) and +1 Food (Dairy),

First 'hard' evidence of Cattle domestication dates back to about 7000 BCE (Neolithic) in Pakistan - evidence of cattle pens or fenced pasturage. Less than a 1000 years later, about 6500 - 6300 BCE in Anatolia, there is first evidence of cattle kept as milk/dairy animals instead of just for meat and about another 1000 years after that, in 5500 BCE in Poland/Balkans, there is first evidence of the equipment and residue from cheese-making.
So, if the game starts in Neolithic (10,000 - 8000 BCE) which is where Humankind starts and where I'd prefer the game to start, Cattle would start as a hunted animal and become first a Domesticated Meat Animal, then Diary, then Cheese-producing animal. These are important distinctions, because once cattle were kept for milk and cheese, they were kept longer: the skeletons of domestic cattle go from being all animals less than 2 - 3 years old (basically, slaughtered most of them every winter when they couldn't be easily fed) to animals 6 - 10 years old, so producing for much longer AND being used as draft animals, primarily for plowing. This is of major importance because once you have an animal-drawn plow the labor required to plant crops goes down dramatically, and amount of land under cultivation per farmer or farm family goes up.
The 'Raw Materials' from cattle used from the start are Bone, Horn, Sinew, and Hide/Leather. Bone and Horn were used for Tools extensively before Worked Metals, and Sinew was used until the Medieval Era for bowstrings, slings, and fastening parts of weapons and armor together. I lump Horn, Bone, Sinew, Leather and Wood together as Basic Resources for the production of Units, largely those from the Ancient, Classical and a few from the Medieval Eras.

In a nutshell, I split up Food in the following subdivision

- Cereal: the staple grains and starches which can last long but have little nutritional value on their own
- Meat: the flesh of slaughtered animals and fish
- Dairy: the milk of domesticated animals, spoils quickly
- Produce: fresh fruit, herbs and vegetable, high nutritional value but spoils quickly
- Water: fresh water, obtained in large quantities from Lakes, Cenotes and rivers and in low quantities from Jungles and Mountains. Doesn't spoil

Cereals have quite a bit of nutritional value, but it tends to be Unbalanced - low on protein and fats, high in carbohydrates and starches. This is why I believe a mechanism for Balanced Diet needs to be included in the health & welfare of your cities: at least 2 and preferably more of the Subdivisions have to be represented in the diet.
Simple Dairy, as mentioned above, tends to become Easily Stored Cheese very quickly, and the Not Storable Milk tends to be consumed instantly (in Game Terms) by keeping diary cattle alive on a continuous basis or converted into storable booze (kumiss)

Each type of food also has a decay rate. Water doesn't spoil, but water deposits regenerate slowly and may dry up after extensive agriculture. Cereal spoils after, say, 50 turns. Meat after 15, Produce and Dairy after 5. When Food spoils it can still be eaten but its nutritional value is halved. When it decays, it can no longer be eaten and is lost forever.

I don't understand the need for a decay rate for food. The minimum turn in the game is unlikely to be less than 1 year, and for most of the game, for the game to be playable by an individual with any kind of a Life, the game will be played in turns of 5 - 50 years each. Any Food Decay then, will take place within a single turn. It might be better to simply reduce the Food Value of foods that, due to their characteristics or technology available, cannot be stored for any length of time or have a high spoilage rate.

When a city's agricultural supply is cut off, it will lose food, causing its citizens to starve. Cities without Water will also get amenity penalties. Cities that riot while besieged will automatically surrender.

Cities without water will receive, in Game Terms, Immediate Penalties: a water shortage lasting even a few weeks will bring major hardship and health decay, and that will be a fraction of a single Game Turn.

Early in the tech tree, options for food processing (enhanced food if you will) will be available, creating production chains and "upgrading" food into alternatives that either sustain more people or spoil less quickly

- Bakery: 1 Cereal + 1 Water => 3 Bread. Bread spoils more quickly, but has a nutritional value of 2, meaning that it counts as consuming 2 food resources instead of one.
Bakeries can later be upgraded into Pattiseries, combining Bread + Fruit (Banana, Grape, Pomegranate) or Chocolate + a Sweetener (Sugar, Honey) to create the Pastry Luxury resource.
- Brewery: 1 Cereal OR Produce +1 Water => 2 Beer (Cereal) OR 2 Cider (Produce). Beer and Cider replace Water as a consumable, allowing water to be used for agriculture instead. They can spoil, but at a slow rate.
Breweries can also create the Luxury resources of Wine by combining Grapes and Water, Rum by combining Sugar and Water, and Mead, by combining Honey with Water.
- Creamery: 1 Dairy + 1 Wood => 3 Cheese. Same nutritional value, but spoils less quickly.
- Pickler: 1 Produce + 1 Salt OR 1 Sugar => 2 Pickle / 2 Preserve. Lower nutritional value, but hardly spoils.
- Smokehouse: 1 Meat/Fish + 1 Wood => 3 Smoked meat/Stockfish Lower nutritional value, but doesn't spoil
Using a higher quality wood will create a higher quality smoked meat. You can also use coal over wood.
- Butcher: 1 Meat + 1 Salt => 2 Sausages. This building also increases the meat output of improved Animal tiles worked by the city.
Using Spices instead of Salt will create a higher quality sausage.

The earliest 'bakeries' were strictly family, and the family 'bake oven' was directly related to kiln technology, because pre-wheel hand-made pottery was fired in the same ovens used to bake bread. Centralized or 'industrial' Bakeries are a Classical and later development, related to central supply of grain and flour from central authorities, like the Romans. So, Bread is available from Grain almost immediately in the Neolithic development of agriculture, since Pottery predates agriculture by up to 10,000 years.
The product of Breweries does not save water, because brewing either beer or cider takes more water than just consuming the same amount in water as you do beer or cider. The brewery 'technology' is to produce Happiness/Amenity.
Wine of a sort can be produced from virtually any fruit, but the Wine we think of today comes from a single-source grape that originated in the Caucasus Mountains and was 'exploited' to produce a beverage in mass quantities for trade and consumption as early as 6000 BCE (in Georgia, where a wine press and vats were found). Early in the game, then, I'd simply classify Brewed Beverage as all the beers, ciders, and wines other than the Grape Wine, which would be a Special Resource found in just one place but 'transportable' to other tiles with the proper characteristics (Hill, Rocky Soil, Temperate Growing Season)

All the other 'facilities' for storable food: Creamery, Pickler, Smokehouse, Butcher, were individual or family activities from the earliest domestication of animals and agriculture, and again, in Game Timescale, represent changes in storage that all occur within a single Turn.
One point, though, is that 'pickling' or fermenting Fish into garum sauce, provided an easily-transported and stored Protein source for the Roman armies - they almost never ate meat, and considered it unhealthy as a food!
So, a mechanism for pickling or fermenting a 'raw' protein source (meat, fish, dairy) into smoked/dried meat, cheese, or storable sauces could be a legitimate In-Game activity to provide Food variety for armies as well as long-range Trade.

Near the endgame, Luxury foods can be created, these foods will provide amenities (late game governments will require more amenities to be provided per citizen)
- Fast Food (Bread + Sausage), feeds many people but incurrs a health penalty for each citizen consuming it.
- Gourmet Food (Any form of Processed food + Cheese) feeds few people, but increases health for each citizen consuming it
- Hippocrass (Wine + Honey), Mulled Wine (Wine + Spices)
- Liquor (Beer + Sugar); Sake (Rice + Sugar)
- Vitamin Drinks: requires two Different sources of produce

Distilled Liquor is a distinct Technology Resource, produced in the late Medieval Era from virtually any of the Grains, Fruits, or Sugar Cane and a special Installation (Distillery). It produces a potential Luxury 'Food' (with minimal 'food value') and a Major Trade Resource, as the Luxury Liquors still makes a lot of Gold for countries IRL like Canada, Scotland, and France.

Also, in the Medieval Era, Advanced Brewing with combinations of Hops and other Grains, vegetables, etc produces Lager Beer, another major Trade and Luxury Resource. This could be tied like the Liquor to a special installation, the Brew House, with a World Wonder called Guiness Brewery . . .

Cities can have specialty foods if they have cooked (and traded) the food for long enough, making it a source of World Heritage (ie: tourism)

Great Idea! And ties in neatly with the Luxury Foods already mentioned, given the amount of Tourism generated by places like the Champaign Works and vineyards in France and USA, Distilleries in Scotland, or Guiness Brewery in Ireland . . .

For industrial resources the main resources are Lumber, Metal, Stone, Minerals and Labor.
> Lumber is the main fuel resource, but can also be used to quickly construct buidings and units. Later it can be replaced by Bricks
> Metal is the main source for weapons, but may later be converted into Steel and later Stainless Steel.
> Stone and Clay are the main resources for building construction, later eclypsed by bricks and concrete, and even later by Reinforced Steel
> "Minerals" is a catch-all term for resources which aren't Rocks or Metals, so basically things such as Clay and Silica would fall underneath this umbrella term. This would also encompass all the metals needed for "purifying" Iron into steel.

"lumber" is processed wood and normally associated only with construction wood. Timber is a more 'generic' term for Wood used for all purposes as a Basic Resource. It can be divided into two basic types:
Old Growth: the tall and long logs used for all kinds of boat/ship construction before Industrial Iron & Steel, and monumental Building construction, in some parts of the world even after masonry is available (like Japan and China)
Second Growth: The smaller and younger trees that provide 'lumber' for ordinary house construction, firewood for homes and industry, and raw material for charcoal for Iron working.

Metal is a required source for most weapons, but not all - bows and sling ranged weapons the great exceptions, that use stone (slingshot), sinew, wood, and bone/horn (composite bows)

Likewise, Stone and Clay are not eclipsed by bricks and concrete, as Stone of various kinds is still used for Monumental Construction (Wonders, special Buildings, etc) and Clay is less important as a building material, because brick , rammed earth, or adobe clay is practically Universal, but very important as a Special Clay, like kaolin, required for Special Resources like Porcelain.

The enhanced industrial resources are
Bricks (Minerals + Cereal), Replaces Wood as a building material
Steel (Iron + Minerals + Lumber),
Tools (Metal + Lumber,) OR Stone + Lumber) (replaces Labor),
Weapons (Metal/Lumber + Lumber/Coal)
Coal (Lumber + Lumber, but also appears as a separate deposit), replaces wood as a fuel.
Concrete (Stone + Water, replaces Stone as the main building material)

Bricks can be considered another product of the Kiln technology associated with Pottery, Baking, and early metal-working. The only 'raw material' really required is Clay, since virtually any weed can be dried and used as a fixative.
Steel is part of the 'Iron Progression' which goes:
Wrought Iron - requires Iron ore, Timber (charcoal), mid-temperature Kiln (higher than required for baking or basic pottery)
Cast Iron - requires Iron ore, Timber (charcoal) OR Coal, high-temperature Kiln (bellows technology add-on)
Steel - requires Iron ore, Timber (charcoal) OR Coke (processed Coal), high-temperature Kiln
Industrial Quantity Steel - requires Iron ore, Coke, Special Installation (Steel Mill)
Alloy Steel - requires Iron ore, Coke, Alloy Minerals, Steel Mill - produces Steel Armor Plate, special structural steels for buildings, Wonders, automobiles and Personal Appliances, etc
Concrete requires technology to crush stone in quantity, so requires a specific Technology, but can also be made earlier by using Tephra (volcanic ash) and stone, which produces the Roman 'puteolozzi' cement/concrete - a Special Resource for the Classical Era not available everywhere.

The advanced industrial resources are
Fuel (Requires Petroleum, but late-game techs allow it to be created with plant-based oils, replaces Coal and Lumber as fuels)
Firearms (Requires Alloyed Metal/Steel + Niter, replaces weapons)
Machinery (Steel + Lumber/Concrete, replaces Tools)
Plastic (requires Petroleum, late game techs allow it to be created with Dairy instead)
Reinforced Concrete (Concrete + Alloyed Metal/Steel) (replaces Concrete as the main building material)
Microchips (Minerals +
Stainless Steel (Steel + Fuel/Coal) (Replaces Steel as a main building material)

Petroleum Fuel can be replaced by a Chemical Technology product made from Coal and later by the plant-based fuels, of which two major raw materials are Maize and Sugar
Niter occurs in a few natural Deposits, but largely was manufactured in Nitraries and later in Factories by the Haber Process - another Chemical Engineering Technology in the Modern Era.
Machinery is a product of several Technologies, including Steam Power and Precision Measurement. One peculiar 'requirement' is Bison - because leather belts were used to transfer power from a stationary steam engine to individual powered machine tools in a machine shop or factory, and cattle leather was not strong enough to withstand the strain - Bison leather was much more sturdy and economical!

Stainless Steel I'd replace, as mentioned above, by Alloy Steel, which includes Stainless ('nickel-steel') as well as the other 'specialty steels' required for Modern Construction and Weapons of all kinds.

For commercial resources, the main subdivisions are Fiber (Wool, Leather, Reeds), Dyes (Indigo, Ink, Purple), Seasonings (Sweetener, Spice), Resins (Wax, Amber, Glue), Oils (Olive, Rose, Wallnut) Fragrances (Amber, Frankincense, Tobacco) Gems (Diamonds, Pearl, Crystal) and Coin.

Two of the most important Plant Oils today are Palm Oil and Sunflower Oil, the latter of which is a petroleum substitute for anti-freeze and lubricants, an animal feed, and a human food additive, while Palm Oil is a major Industrial Resource for all kinds of processes, and has been panted all over Africa, Southeast Asia and Indonesia to be traded to Industrial countries.
Tobacco is not really a 'fragrance' Resource, it was used originally for Religious and Diplomatic ceremonies and then as a Recreational addictive Drug. Amber isn't a Fragrance either, but materials like Beaver castorum or Whale Oil were used as the Basis for various perfume products. Since the number of organic substances used to provide the fragrance itself is impossibly large, using the Base as a resource would probably keep the entire thing more playable.
In the category of Fragrance applied to living spaces, the most historically significant were Incense/Frankincense and Aromatic Woods (tropical rain forest products) - the latter were by volume the largest Traded Item between Indonesia and China in the Medieval Era. These could have Religious implications as well, being used for ceremonies in several religions.

The enhanced resources are main commodities and trade goods: Clothing (Fiber + Dye), Pottery (Mineral OR Reeds + Dye), Glass (Mineral + Mineral/Lumber/Coal), Furniture (Wood + Resin), Leatherwork (Leather + Salt) , Alloyed Metals (Specific Metal + Generic Metal/Mineral) , Paper (Fiber/Lumber + Water + Resin), Lamps (Metal + Oil), Perfume (Fragrance + Oil).

Pottery dates to Pregame and was used almost everywhere. The distinguishable Pottery is Decorated Pottery like the Greek black and red-ware, that was traded as a Luxury Resource all over Europe and the Middle East in Classical Era, and Porcelain that made a lot of Gold for China for centuries as a Trade Good. Both are related to Kiln technologies and special Raw Material like kaolin clay or Mineral Dyes.

This would require the following resources in the map:

Livestock:
- Cow / Water Buffalo (Meat, Dairy, Labor and Leather)
- Sheep / Goat (Meat, Dairy and Wool)
- Pigs (Meat and Leather)
- Llama (Wool, Labor)
- Bees (Wax, Honey)
- Snail (Meat, Dye)
Special: Horse, Camel (Strategic resources)

Pigs are near-universal as a Domestic Animal, and Pig Leather is of limited use, since it is too thin to protect against a thrust spear (in Medieval Anglo-Saxon England and Carolingian Francia, it was forbidden to show up to muster with a shield made of pig or sheep leather, it had to be cow) - so they can really be considered part of the 'agricultural suite' of materials, like chickens - some sort of 'domestic fowl' is also near-universal from near the beginning of agriculture.

Game & Seafood
- Deer, Bison (Meat, Hides)
- Beaver / Elk / Mink (Meat, Furs)
- Elephant (Meat, Hides, Ivory)
- Fish, Turtle (L) (meat)
- Clam (Meat, Pearl)
- Lobster (L),(Meat)
- Squid (Meat, Ink)
- Coral (Stone, Gem)
- Whale (Meat, Amber)

Elk is part of the 'Deer Family", in game terms, Elk, Moose, Deer, Reindeer are all of similar use (Hide, Bone, Sinew, Meat) and just live in different environments.
The primary (historical) Luxury Fur Animals were Beaver, Ermine, Mink, Sable, and Fox, with Leopard, Tiger, and Bear being 'decorative hides' (the European armies' demand for bearskin caps for Grenadiers practically wiped out the European black bear population by the 19th century).
I'd debate the distinction among squid, lobster, clam, and turtle: they all provide what I'd call "Luxury Meat" and are Coastal resources from pretty much the same set of tiles In-Game. A single term, like Shellfish, while not precisely accurate, would cover all of them. The similar resources that might be distinguished would be Oysters, which are a more common 'shellfish meat' and also can provide Pearls, a gemstone substitute and Luxury item, and Abalone, which in addition to shellfish meat, provided a highly decorative shell that was used for jewelry and ornament and a major trade item, for example, up and down the west coast of North America among the Native American groups.

Mine Resources
- Copper, Silver, Gold (Metal, Coin)
- Lead (Metal, Dye)
- Amber (Resin)
- Iron (S) (Metal only)
- Coal (S), replaces Lumber as fuel.

I classify 'Mineral Deposits' by how easily they can be refined and made useful, since their end use will vary dramatically throughout the game with changes in technology. By that criteria
Copper, Silver, Gold, Lead are the first Metals, because they can be melted in a camp fire, 'cast' in a clay pot and beaten into shape with a rock.
Amber is a resin, not a mineral, and was used both as a Perfume base and earlier, as Jewelry/decoration
Iron requires specialized technologies to be useful, but once those are available, is probably the most universally useful 'ore' in Game Terms
Coal comes in several forms: Peat, Lignite, and Anthracite. technically, the Oil substitute and Rubber substitutes from coal are made from Anthracite, while Peat is only useful as a relatively low-temperature Heat Source for cooking and housing. What I think is most important is that as a fuel to make Iron and Steel products Coal needs to be processed into Coke, which was not done commercially until relatively late in the Industrial Era. Before that, Charcoal from Timber and Bamboo (which automatically added Carbon to the mix) were the primary 'refining additives' to Iron and Steel making.

And you left out, probably because it is not always a 'Mine' resource, Salt, which has been both a Food requirement and a Trade good for most of history and pre-history.

Sawmill resources:
- Oak (Lumber only)
- Cherry (Lumber, Produce)
- Wallnut (Lumber, Oil)
- Mahogany (L), Ebony (L) (Lumber only)
- Cedarwood (Lumber, Fragrance)
- Pine, Rubber (Lumber, Resin)
- Maple (Lumber, Seasoning) (Syrup)

Again, like Fruit, we can go crazy with the varieties of woods in the world, virtually all of which have been exploited by Humans. The major distinctions that I think should be made, aside from the basic Old Growth versus Second Growth I already mentioned, would be by woods that had distinctively different uses:
Decorative - walnut, cherry, ebony, maple, mahogany - the 'furniture' and Luxury construction timber
Aromatic - cedarwood, sandalwood, agarwood, camphorwood, rosewood, etc
Tropical Construction Woods - Ebony, Teak - could be Special resources for some Wonder and ship construction
Resource Woods: Rubber, Palm (Oil), Maple (Syrup)

The Oak, as the largest and oldest living thing visible, had a religious significance in northern Europe, but otherwise doesn't have to be distinguished, since the Oak genus 'colonized' virtually all the temperate forests of the world, so it is essentially everywhere there aren't tropical or evergreen forests.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Well I have been mulling over it for about 3 years (not in one long streak though lol. I'm not that insane). I don't have much to say about your suggestions. They seem perfectly reasonable for me.

Another suggestion that I could make is that upon improvement of a resource, the player can choose what trade good it provides. If you improve Elephants, you can choose between hunting (Ivory, depletes over time) and domesticating them (Mounts, can build Elephant units). That might be a solution for the more ambiguous, multipurpose resources.

 

[HorseshoeHermit]

I may not be the Boris Gudenuf Winger Hussars charging in to save the thread, but I was thinking about this all day!

While I won't try to give a magnum opus post, I will throw out 3 things that i seem to be drawn to when pondering the 4X games i play.

#1: Victory and Tension
< ... >

#2: Economics
One thing gamemakers always need to contend with is how detailed to make the game. That's a judgement call. I enjoy some detail but complexity for complexity sake isn't something I prize.
Economics
As far as economics go, I think representing the key metrics by the three yields - food, production, and gold - is a very good and classic mechanic that many games (Age of Empires, Civ, Stellaris) have in some form or another.
I think there is a place for resources, but the perfect game, to me, is one a lot of other people would play too, so having lots of schemes of resources on the map->manufactured resources->final product is probably out. But I'll get into that in a second...
Tying in with the central focus of the era system in #1, the basis of the game economy should be forced to change era to era. For example, a slow shift in production coming from terrain vs industrial infrastructure. Etc.
My largest civ6 gripe is how common gold is. I think the ease of generating it removes a lot of empire management opportunities. When I discuss economies changing over time, I recognize that part of the incentive of getting a new era's unlocks is that it helps you solve the problems you currently have. That said, I think it should also introduce new issues. Using the principle of consistent rate of return, I think a critical lever of game balance is to make financing your empire reflect the military strength system in civ6: you can make more money over time, but you need it to pay for more expensive stuff. Let's just say that, for example, in an empire that was fairly balanced, it might spend 10 gold for every 11 it produces. This margin of (example) 10% is a number that should be pretty consistent over time: whether you make 10 gold, 100, or 10,000, you will be spending it too. You won;t end up with civ6's late game where maintenance never escalates and you make +500gpt and don;t think about it for several eras at a time.
The reason I like this is it means we can keep our carrot and stick tech incentive. In civ6 terms, say I currently have an empire funded by my market buildings. I don't have a lot of surplus gold income with which to buy units, conduct diplomacy, pour extra into other areas. But I am about to get banks! Banks mean I can suddenly fix my budget and afford working towards other areas like science! But... I will also unlock universities, and opera houses... which I need the gold generation of banks if I want to pay for them. Now I'm back to where I started and I am actively looking forward to stock exchanges.
I wouldn't have things so spaced out, but you get the picture of a "tick-tock" process that first gives the means to solve existing problems, then gives you new problems/opportunities. The same concept applies to production - more productive infrastructure is needed to produce everything you want to build, but also will be required because all the new stuff costs more. Etc.

In order to break the wide/tall extremes, i would make the economy ultimately centered around pops + infrastructure/policies for them. In civ6 terms this would mean that a campus full of scientists will really dominate a campus without them.

I would like to ask you for more words on this subject, because I think I am confused. To me, the tensions you describe, of inflating costs, of problems that come with the new powers, that is the situation exactly created in Civilization 5. Civ 5 is completely faithful to what I think is your description here: You unlock the thing that does more stuff, get it online, now you are doing more stuff. Your expenses go up and you ultimately sit statically in terms of your command of rush buys. Where is the marvel for which you are longing?

Is it that we want a different kind of problem to show up, and then the means to solve it to trickle in later? I think that is the holy grail, something to give format to the hardcoded era progressions that will announce the progress of history. We need to fill that idea out with a design.

 

[Sostratus]

Civ 5 is completely faithful to what I think is your description here: You unlock the thing that does more stuff, get it online, now you are doing more stuff. Your expenses go up and you ultimately sit statically in terms of your command of rush buys. Where is the marvel for which you are longing?

Civ5 does a great job on this issue with gold. I laud the development team of BNW for balancing gold so well.
But I would like to see the concept applied to more areas.
A large chunk of the quoted post section on economics is just using civ6's gold as an example of what not to do. In the Victory section i mention a need to constrain player efforts to excel in one area to the exclusion of all others; in the Empire Mgmt section I mention the concept of population needs dramatically growing over time.
If we look at civ6, we see a positive feedback loop in most sectors of the economy - eventually you just spiral up into a yield monster. In civ5, while gold had to be carefully managed, one could have everything. As long as you had the gold infrastructure and some trade routes, you can produce the maximum possible science and culture and production and faith and ... etc.

I suppose the marvel would be a game where a there are a fair number of good ways to approach running your empire, but there is also enough dynamics throughout the length of the game that you should try to adapt to each playthrough, or at least be able to pivot a little era to era. An example of this might be that your empire had been quite successful as a knight-based feudal power, but now you are facing the need to modernize- will you try to remain a military power based on elite units? Do you have the right resources for that? Will you reconfigure as a trading nation? Perhaps oversea colonies make the most sense? What about pivoting into the culture sphere to take advantage of a lack of rival activity there? Etc.

With that you have the foundation to loosely have the examples of most empires in history play out. I think such a game could exist as a civ title, and be recognizable as such.

I was in a particular mindset when i wrote that, so I am trying to remember all the intricacies that past Sostratus had in mind but did not write down.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

. . . An example of this might be that your empire had been quite successful as a knight-based feudal power, but now you are facing the need to modernize- will you try to remain a military power based on elite units? Do you have the right resources for that? Will you reconfigure as a trading nation? Perhaps oversea colonies make the most sense? What about pivoting into the culture sphere to take advantage of a lack of rival activity there? Etc.

Taking this example, of, basically, a Standard Medieval European Kingdom trying to exit the Medieval Era gracefully, and let's look at how the Real Historical problems they faced could be modeled for the gamer.

First, as in most periods of history, the major problems are Internal as much as External:
1. Increasing Gold from merchants and merchant/trade activity in cities that have been excluded from any political power in the state before, and are getting restless about that.
2. The rural/agricultural peasantry, both free and serf, who are tired of being trampled by every passing bunch of soldiers, both foreign and domestic, living off their land and stealing everything that's not nailed down. They are getting especially mad at their own Lords, who were given land and incomes specifically so they could protect said peasants, and have failed to do so.
3. The Feudal Host is militarily obsolete, and increasingly, all the soldiers are mercenaries, including the 'knights' who have to be paid - and most of the Gold to pay them will have to come from those up-to-now-largely-ignored Merchants and townspeople
4. Not only is the Feudal Host obsolete, but there are new weapons that are really, really expensive: Bombards and all their powder and shot, pikemen and 'gunners' who don't fit into the feudal system at all. And the Bombards make all the castles and city walls obsolete, so you have to find the Gold to pay for rebuilding almost all of your kingdom's defenses.
5. Oh, and there are somethings called 'Universities' full of nutters talking and writing about weird new ways of doing things.

That means, you have to pivot from a Government made of the King and his aristocratic Lords and Knights to one that includes, in some way, a bunch of grubby merchants and craftspeople from the cities just to get the Gold you need to stay on the throne at all.

BUT - there are some potentially positive changes as well:
1. Some merchants have formed 'banks' from which they will give you great heaps of Gold in exchange for a promise to pay them back later, with interest.
2. All that new merchant activity, especially the Trade between cities and countries, can be Taxed if you can figure out how to put together a bureaucracy to do it. You could get some of those people from those Universities . . .
3. As long as you have enough Gold, Mercenaries will not revolt against you - and they can be used to suppress people who DO want to revolt against you.

So, even disregarding other Civs around you, you have a whole bunch of problems related to Gold, Social and Civic Policies, Government, Trade, and Military to solve. -And most of them are related, and the solutions almost certainly will be.

And, of course, similar collections of problems and solutions could be postulated for every transition in the game, whether you mark them by Era or by Major Religious, Social, Civic, Military, or Technological advance/change.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Well with regards to army management, if you look at history I notice that early armies mostly consisted of levied citizens. I believe the Assyrians liberally drafted able-bodied men from regions they had conquered and upon "retirement" adopted these foreign-cultured men as "fully assyrian". Early armies were largely voluntary but they were limited in size and took away valuable workers from the cities.

In more feudal societies, landowners levied workers from the fields as well, increasing the quantity of the troops, while professional mercenary companies were starting to form, providing a more elite troop at a higher cost.

In more modern times wars have seen larger armies but with some really dark human behaviour. War was a romantic concept before the Great War. Since then, it's been seen as an abberation needed to be avoided at all costs.

So whatever mechanic you want to use for troops, I'd say that the number of troops should be limited early on (arguably with a cap of the maximum amount of experience a troop may earn), with mercenaries providing an easier, less labor intensive alternative in exchange for higher wages. The industrial and atomic era should see a spike in wars with advances in technology and bureaucratic achievements increasing the efficacity of professional, permanent armies. Late-game should there be efficient, quick and punitive towards those who engage in it for too long.

There are several ways you can implement this. I impose a soft limit on amount of troops called the Army Cap. The Army Cap is the amount of regiments an empire can control at any given time, not counting Mercs. Army Cap starts at 5, increases by +3 per city you directly control, and by +2 for every vassalized city and by +1 for every Fortress tile improvement. Later techs also let militaristic buildings such as Barracks grant Army Cap, enabling larger armies, simulating the Levee en Mass.

Furthermore, I also given each unit a Supply Rating and assigned Supply Limits to each tile. Unit can be stacked, as long as their total supply value doesn't exceed the Supply Limit of the tile they occupy. If the Supply Limit of the tile is lower than the combined amount of Supply in the stack, all regiments in the stack will suffer attrition (= losing health each turn, cannot heal). This system avoids both the godawful systems of the Carpet of Doom (1UPT) and the Stack of Doom. Great Generals and Support units such as the Supply Train can negate attrition.
With regards to units, I use the following rules of thumb:

> Recruting a regular unit incurrs a mild Growth penalty until recruitment has been completed. After all, you're drafting your workforce for your regiment. Disbanding a regular unit in a city grants the food lost through recruitment back to the city.

> Conscripting a unit requires an upfront gold cost and reduces the population in the city by -1, but grants you a regiment of the chosen unit type at the start of the next turn. This by-passes training so any advantages granted by a Barracks, Armory, Stable, etc does not apply. It also temporarily increases unrest in the city. Disbanding a conscripted unit adds a pop to the city they're disbanded in making it a tool for forced migration.

Note: I also have morale as a factor, alongside strength, health and armor. Conscripts have lower base morale and health than their regular and mercenary counterparts.

> Mercenaries are available via contracts (building economic buildings increases the amount of contracts that may become available). Signing a contract costs a high amount of Gold, and costs more gold per turn than regular infantry Merc counterparts, but temporarily grants the player a powerful unit they can add to their armies. Contracts are active for a set amount of time, after which the contract has to be renewed or the Merc is instantly disbanded forever. Contracts spawn at a random rate, but are likelier to happen in cities with high gold/turn outputs. Promoting or Upgrading a Merc refreshes the contract (meaning that you have to repay the upfront gold cost if you do this, but it also resets the timer)

Note: Mercs should be created randomly based on all units your empire and those within trade range can recruit. Including unique/emblematic units belonging to nearby empires. Mercs also have higher base health than their regular and conscripted counterparts.

> Around the Enlightenment, the Levee-en-Masse becomes available, drastically increasing Army Cap, Recruitment and the Supply Limit for your troops in foreign tiles, enabling larger armies. However, more advanced governments will become aware of the horrors of modern warfare, increasing diplomatic penalties. Mercs and Conscripts remain available, if suboptimal choices one might use in an emergency.

A system like this would also create potential for several Civ bonuses:

- The Carthaginians specalize in Mercenaries, being guaranteed a contract in all cities with a Cothon, as well as their contracts being cheaper and lasting longer than normal.
- The Vietnamese specialize in Conscripted units, with their Conscripts not receiving the combat penalties of those of other empires.
- The Roman armies and navies can support one additional unit for each Great General they've earned
- The Polynesians are immune to naval attrition
- The Assyrians receive a supply reduction on their siege units, allowing them to carry more of them in their armies
- The Russians receive additional Army Cap for each of their cities, increasing even more if their
- The Franks receive prestige (diplomatic yield) for each highly promoted unit in their army (including Mercs). They can also spend prestige when drafting Conscripts or hiring Mercs.
- The Japanese units cost Faith in maintenance, rather than gold
- The Vikings can transform civilian units into military ones by spending Faith.
- The Ottomans can draft regular units in cities they've conquered from other players
- The Persians support one fewer unit per city, but garrisoned units do not count towards the Army Cap. (this is combined with garrisons passively increasing the yields of a Persian city by n% each)

Of course, there's more than just looking at the army side of it. Any historic 4X game should have multiple systems that interlock together. Government mechanics, city management, map design and trade networks should all contribute and interact with military units, granting bonuses or penalties that will grant Strategic Weight to the decision of whether to support a giant army or not. Eliminating all other civs should be a potential win condition, but it should come at a cost and be difficult to achieve on all map sizes besides tiny and duel.

 

[The googles do nothing]

3. As long as you have enough Gold, Mercenaries will not revolt against you - and they can be used to suppress people who DO want to revolt against you.

Do you have a definition what the difference is between Mercenaries and Professional Soldiers? Civ6 takes a very 20th century approach to unit and they are always 100% loyal and when you run out of money they just desert instead of come looking for their money. Great Generals too for that matter.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Do you have a definition what the difference is between Mercenaries and Professional Soldiers? Civ6 takes a very 20th century approach to unit and they are always 100% loyal and when you run out of money they just desert instead of come looking for their money. Great Generals too for that matter.

The flip answer is that a Professional Soldier is a Mercenary fighting for his own country.
In reality, a Mercenary IS a professional soldier, in that he makes all or most of his living by fighting for whoever pays him - as does the 'patriotic' professional soldier, except that, presumably, he is more discriminating in who he takes money from - because, among other things, if he takes money from some government other than his own it's called Treason and the penalties tend to be terminal.

In game terms, I'd like to implement Frederich the Great's explanation. To him, a mercenary was actually three 'soldiers'. First, he was an extra soldier for you. Second, he was one less soldier that your enemy could hire. Third, he was one more of your civilians who could stay home, work the farm or business and pay taxes instead of being conscripted into the army.

This would require:
1. All units cost Population. Possibly a simple 1 Pop per Unit, or maybe Specialists that are the most important segment of the population.
2. The total number of mercenaries available at any time is Limited, so that, especially the good ones, will frequently be the subject of a 'bidding war' among Civs to get them.
3. Your present population will be required to 'work' tiles, buildings, improvements, either as Pop points or Specialists, so there is an automatic and hard 'cap' on how many units of your own people you can afford to field before your economy essentially shuts down. This ties Army Size directly to What The Economy Can Afford and will vary dramatically, even among Civs of the same size, because of differences in Social and Civic Policies, Culture, Administrative Efficiencies, and the types of units - militia, professional, or mixed.

Mercenaries would be produced either by Civs/Groups that are inherently militant, like pastoral nomads that have to defend their herds constantly (the 'steppe nomads') or groups that make a living by hiring out, like many inhabitants of mountainous or otherwise infertile areas. Mercenaries should also be available from 'Barbarians', since they frequently fall under both categories. The Carthaginian Army even before Hannibal, for instance, was largely composed of 'barbarian mercenaries' from Gaul, Spain, and parts of North Africa, which makes perfect sense when you consider that Carthage had much more Gold than it had People compared to Rome.
Mercenary totals would also vary dramatically when wars end. From at least the Classical Era onwards, the end of a war that lasted any length of time meant a bunch of men were left without employment who had become used to fighting for a living. So, for historical example, after the Peloponnesian War (30+ years long) in Greece, Greek mercenaries 'flooded the market' all over the middle east and Mediterranean, and Greek mercenary units and whole armies showed up from Sicily to Persia (Xenophon's '10,000' were Greek mercenary Hoplites in the pay of a faction in the Persian Civil War)

There is lots that can be done with a good Mercenary Mechanic in the game: hired Barbarians, hired troops from other Civs (the Greek hoplites of Xenophon's mentioned above), hired troops from City States that make a specialty of some type of military unit (Cretan archers, Rhodian slingers, Hessian Grenadiers. Swiss Pikemen, etc), and, in the Modern Eras, mercenary Special Forces and Garrison types like the bodyguards and 'consultants' hired out by international military businesses. A 'Mercenary Corporation' mechanic, in fact, would be perfectly historical dating back to the late Medieval Era - like the infamous White Company that Conan Doyle fictionalized, which was very real and, for the time, very influential.

Great People in general should be much more 'mobile'. Until Nationalism made it rather dangerous and uncomfortable, there was a lot of mobility among Great Generals, Great Artists, Great Writers, etc - which is how you got Austrian Generals with Irish names, Russian Generals with German names, and an American 'General' named von Steuben from the Prussian Army. How to implement this in the game is something I'm still thinking about, but it's one of my Basic Principles/Concepts for a Perfect Historical 4X game.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Oh no! Here He comes again!

Specifically, having just finished a major translation project (two fat files of German Army Zustandberichten or Status Reports from September - November 1941, if you must know) I've got some time to contemplate the Perfect Historical 4X Game again.

So, let's take a look at Tech Trees.

Civ VI recently introduced the 'Shuffle' or randomized Tech/Civic Tree, which I firmly believe is a way of 'testing the waters' concerning Blind or Semi-Blind (Blinkered?) Tech Research.
But, I suggest a better approach is to question the entire concept of a collection of 'Technologies' that you focus your attention on at all.

Premise: Almost nobody throughout most of history started ‘researching’ a specific Technology IRL: they started looking for a Solution of some kind to a Problem they had or could foresee. Furthermore, in many cases the Unintended Side Effects of what they found turned out to be of far more profound importance than what they were looking for, and produced absolutely unforeseen problems compared to the original problem they were trying to solve.

So, instead of Random Techs or Blind Research, how about turning the Tech Tree around, and not directly research Technologies at all, but simply identify Problems and look for Solutions to the Problems, which may be technological, but more often will be a combination of technology, civics, social policy, politics, and diplomacy. In addition, in most cases there are several potential ‘solutions’ so the path from Problem to Technology/Solution will almost never be a ‘straight’ or ‘narrow’ one.

Defining the ‘problems’ in Game Terms I suggest could be done within the framework of Categories. These can be the old 4X of Explore, Exploit, Expand, Exterminate (as SMAC used), or more elaborate, as @Lord Lakely proposed with Administration, Agriculture, Aesthetics, Society, Commerce, Engineering, Doctrine, Science.

These, however, are not sources of problems as much as they are sources of solutions. The Problem might be described better in this way:

Problem: Need More Food. Problem defined in Game Terms as Stagnant Population in one or more Cities.

Solutions could include Agricultural Technologies (domestication of new plants, better agronomy techniques) Engineering (irrigation structures, dams, terraces) or even Society/Administration (central direction of Irrigation projects, dam-building, central Granaries and ‘efficient’ distribution of what food there is) or combinations of several or all of the above.

The Problems requiring Solutions (Tech, Cultural or Civic) should really be generated by a combination of Personal Choice/Desire (You Da Gamer) and Choice/Desires of the People. In other words, you may want to develop a brilliantly cultural Civ, but if you have no excess Food and Population in your Civ is Stagnant (which means realistically, semi-starvation is causing a nasty infant mortality rate) guess which Problem your Civ’s energies are going to be directed to?

I suggest, then, that you might indicate an area in which you, the God King, are interested, but what actually gets ‘researched’ will be as dependent on the Situation In Game as anything else. To return to what will probably be a Basic Problem early in the game: Food. The possible solutions, as mentioned, could be Technological, Cultural/Civic, or Engineering, but exactly which your people/Civ pursues may depend on things you have already done: if you chose a Council form of government instead of a God King, your government may not have the authority to develop massive irrigation/dam/engineering projects, so that kind of ‘solution’ will simply be a lower priority - it requires too many other developments to work. Instead, your people may look to a Tech solution, and the type of solution will depend on Situation:

Have a Floodplain/river valley to cultivate: tech solution might be ox-drawn plows, metal-tipped heavy plows, or new plants to cultivate along the river. Development of plowing technology, of course, is dependent on having Draft Animals - cattle, water buffalo, or horses
Have hills nearby: develop Terracing to increase the amount of land under cultivation
Have Sheep - turn those hills into Pastures instead
Have a river or coast - develop better boats/nets/ fishing techniques
Have a neighbor with surplus food, who doesn’t have access to Resources you have - develop Trade (BUT this is not as Attractive a solution, because it puts your food supply in somebody else’s hands)

So, a single “Problem” can produce developments in numerous different directions, even in the context of ‘purely’ Technological Solutions. The “Tech Tree” will resemble more of a Tech Kudzu or a Tech Banyan than a single-trunked tree with a few branches.

Furthermore, the Problems will change based on situation, terrain, and previous developments. Start in the middle of a continent, you will have no Problems related to exploiting or defending from the Ocean. Start on the coast, and making the most of the water may turn out to be a part of your solutions to several problems: Food, Trade, Defense, Exploration, etc. Start next to a very aggressive set of Barbarians or other Civs, and the foremost pressing problem may be Defense above all else, which will warp your choices of Civics, Social Development, and Politics in addition to your desired Technologies to address that over-riding Problem.

For a start on Problem Definition, let’s ‘sub-divide’ the 4X:

Explore
- Mobility Land or Sea
- Mapping
- Curiousities - Natural Wonders, “Pure” Science - Speculation - Philosophy
- Diplomatic Relations with Civs, City States, and/or "Barbarians"

Exploit
- Resources - Animal, Mineral, Botanical, Special
- Terrain - extremes of terrain/climate, water

Expand
- Mobility (again)
- Population - Control (Political, Government Types, Civics), Food, Happiness
- Mapping (again)

Exterminate
- Weapons, Units
- Doctrine - offensive, defensive
- Cohesion - Loyalty, mobilization (Religion?), Government (again) and Civics
- (Counter Exterminate) - Defense above all, land and/or sea

And, as stated, many of the Problems will not be selected as much as your Population will bring them (violently) to your attention: if they are short of Food, you will hear about it in the form of people emigrating from your city/empire or riots in the streets pretty quickly. THAT becomes the Problem regardless of your own goals or wishes, or your game will end with your Avatar dangling from a lamp post in front of your burning Palace.

Another Way: relate Problems To Be Solved to the ‘currencies’ in the (current Civ VI) game:
Food
Gold
Production
Influence/Diplomacy
Religion
Civics/Social Policy
Culture
Amenity/ "Happiness"
Health
Defense

The relative importance of these at any given moment will depend entirely on the Situation at that moment: if you have no neighbors of any kind, Defense is not a Problem. If a herd of elephants trample through the city, ‘Defense’ becomes a problem. If everyone is happy but you meet a Civ with a noticeably higher ‘level’ of Culture, then Culture will become a problem - but not if half your population is starving - some things will always take priority, barring extreme situations and factors.

Food might, for example, be a problem because Barbarians are running off all the cattle. That ‘problem’, then, could be solved by either a Defense Solution (beat up the Barbarians), a Diplomatic/Influence Solution (make allies out of the Barbarians), a Gold Solution (Buy off the Barbarians), or a Food solution (switch from Cattle raising to ‘pure’ agriculture, since bales of wheat or rice are harder to haul away)

Eurekas, Scientific Breakthroughs, Great People, new discoveries of Resources and New Resources, Civics or Social Policy changes can all throw new Solutions and New Problems at you. If fact, I’d put it as a Historical Certainty that Solutions carry with them New Problems, either immediately or later, and so that mechanic should be in any Historical 4X game.

As you can tell, this is as much a bunch of ideas and concepts for discussion as it is a finished concept, but I think taking a hard look at the 'established' ways of doing things in Historical 4X is long overdue, and the hoary old Tech Tree is especially overdue for some attention with the intellectual equivalent of a chainsaw.

 

[HorseshoeHermit]

Wouldn't a problem/deficiency driven tech advance system, just result in your civ growing in a well-rounded fashion all the time?

If we still have tech advances, but have removed the tech direction part of gameplay, I think that makes the obvious question into: What will the different players do, as they move through their tech advances and end up with technological repertoires that are a bit divergent? Or, what happens , on the turn just after player A gets a tech, and player B is still on his way to that tech, does it diffuse to him? Does he , if it is on its way to his libraries through diffusion, get a bonus time to advance in another direction right away? And what of the other 4 players?

I would never believe a game could survive as many particulars as this faithfulness to resources and history produces, in your own estimate. It would be like programming a tree of eurekas, that worked as nothing but eurekas, but then add on top of that a particular way you want the progress to flow based on every variation of the empire's current situation. That's a cube of cross references, and it looks like the game is playing itself.
You know, Jon Shafer's At the Gates is a game which has you manage a home economy that is mired in particulars, it involves training someone to actually process a particular cut of meat, and a fieldsman to reap a kind of grain, and the military is tied to control of the productive tiles of the food sources and also the ores for their very weapons. What do you think when you play that game?

It's a real marvel how "almost lovely" Civ5 is. We still played it. It fired the imagination. And the VP mod built dozens of systems when they got the source code. It makes us accept the idea of single production queues, of tech direction, of points of light bound utterly to a national identity... instantaneous (battlefield, diplomatic) communication... and food being king and not largely adjustable through artifice. Amplitude's games have predetermined city sites, which is as well even through the freedoms of Civ, where the city sites are correct or incorrect. In Civ, I suppose the interaction should be that one must have a livable city but also a defensible one. Perhaps the scale (2-tile defense shot) was wrong again.

I don't know what my thesis here is. I know I shouldn't criticize in a brainstorming phase, but I have to say where I think this line ends up. Help explain to me, who is aghast at the idea of making the engine for this game, ... what the game loop is. A game that is entirely particulars, is a narrative. We need something to call all these variances the same, so that we are dealing with numbers. Civ will always be a spreadsheet simulator, just one that has really compelling fluff or not.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Thanx for your comments - this is exactly what is needed to focus and massage the foggy initial thoughts on the subject!

Wouldn't a problem/deficiency driven tech advance system, just result in your civ growing in a well-rounded fashion all the time?

How more than now, when you can see exactly what is required to reach tech goals several Eras in advance?
And if the Problems requiring solutions are based on your In-Game situation, then the direction of your progress should change in almost every game with changes in the map, neighbors, or civ you are playing. I think that is a far better situation than now, when almost regardless of the civ and situation I find myself researching nearly the same Techs in the same sequence every game, at least for the first X turns.

If we still have tech advances, but have removed the tech direction part of gameplay, I think that makes the obvious question into: What will the different players do, as they move through their tech advances and end up with technological repertoires that are a bit divergent? Or, what happens , on the turn just after player A gets a tech, and player B is still on his way to that tech, does it diffuse to him? Does he , if it is on its way to his libraries through diffusion, get a bonus time to advance in another direction right away? And what of the other 4 players?

A neighbor having a Tech or other advance that you don't is one of the In-Game Situations that affect your problem-solving. Since, as I hope I made clear, the Solutions will entail not only 'pure' Tech progress, but also possible changes in Civics or Social Policies or combinations of all three, deciding to adopt a Civic/Social Policy (since I haven't thought much about how to or if to revamp the Social Policy/Civic system I have to keep referring to the two together, sorry.) instead of or in addition to a new Technology is also a potential solution. Example: one is short workers (Population or Specialist points) to work farms, workshops, etc. One possible solution is to use masses of slaves - but that requires a militarized society to keep an eye on the slaves, and possibly a powerful army to go find slaves in neighboring Civs/City States/Barbarian Camps in the first place. Militarizing your society, of course, will have other Consequences and produce other problems - both in your own Civ and in the Civs that are nearby: we might admire the historical accomplishments of Sparta or Prussia, bu they don't make comfortable neighbors!

Your decisions will still have consequences, but the decisions will not be on the order of "Research Bronze-Working" they will be "Need to fight off the ferocious Slobbovians", for which the possible solutions might be:
1. Equip your army with better weapons - which could be bows using no on-map resources, or a Phalanx of spearmen which requires a recruiting system to get masses of men behind shields, or a force of aggressive swordsmen which requires both Iron Working and a society willing to support a bunch of full-time Warriors. None of these 'solutions' is as simple as Get a Tech, Have a Resource, Build Units.
2. Hire mercenaries. That is, if there is a source of reasonable trustworthy mercenaries at hand
3. Bribe the Slobbovians. Not a potential solution if you are a relatively poor state, but, especially among 'barbarians', they can frequently be bribed with stuff that is relatively cheap or abundant in your Civ: China for centuries bribed 'northern Barbarians' with silk or porcelain or 'princesses' in marriage, all of which China had in abundance. Greek and Roman wine, based on fragments of the amphorae they were shipped in, flooded the German 'market', and since the 'barbarians' couldn't tell the difference between good wine and bad, it was a relatively cheap way to keep them quiet - or at least, too drunk to invade.
4. Fortify. Always a possible 'fall back'. China's "Long Wall" is only the best known, but wall systems were used everywhere, even in open terrain that required kilometers or earth-moving to make a difference. This solution requires either massive production/gold resources, like Rome's or China's, or a map situation that makes the required fortifications relatively short and simple: like the 'gates' or passes through the Caucasus and Zagros Mountains that were fortified at one time or the other by everybody in the region.

In other words (hope I'm getting clearer here!) your 'decision tree' from a Problematic Beginning will include (potential/possible) solutions along Tech, Civic, Social Policy, or even Economic, Religious, or Diplomatic avenues. Which of the potential 'solutions' is actually available will depend on particulars of your situation in regard to map, neighbors, previous/available Techs, Civics, Social Policies, and other factors.

I would never believe a game could survive as many particulars as this faithfulness to resources and history produces, in your own estimate. It would be like programming a tree of eurekas, that worked as nothing but eurekas, but then add on top of that a particular way you want the progress to flow based on every variation of the empire's current situation. That's a cube of cross references, and it looks like the game is playing itself.
You know, Jon Shafer's At the Gates is a game which has you manage a home economy that is mired in particulars, it involves training someone to actually process a particular cut of meat, and a fieldsman to reap a kind of grain, and the military is tied to control of the productive tiles of the food sources and also the ores for their very weapons. What do you think when you play that game?

I haven't ever played that game, but I have played games in which you obtained every resource, turned them into weapons, transported the weapons to training places, recruited and trained the men, found leaders for them, and then had to feed them as they trudged across the map to battle. I think that kind of game is excellent as an exercise in Patience and near-pathological Attention To Detail, but not a game in the sense of an enjoyable pastime. - And, Total Disclosure, I have been called Obsessive more than once in both Real and Game situations!

The game cannot 'play itself', since each Problem identified requires a decision of some kind from the AI/Gamer among potential solutions. Unlike Civ VI where many 'decisions' aren't decisions at all since the particulars of a narrow and linear Tech Tree and built-in particulars of each Civ all conspire to reduce the supposed decision trees to sticks.

It's a real marvel how "almost lovely" Civ5 is. We still played it. It fired the imagination. And the VP mod built dozens of systems when they got the source code. It makes us accept the idea of single production queues, of tech direction, of points of light bound utterly to a national identity... instantaneous (battlefield, diplomatic) communication... and food being king and not largely adjustable through artifice. Amplitude's games have predetermined city sites, which is as well even through the freedoms of Civ, where the city sites are correct or incorrect. In Civ, I suppose the interaction should be that one must have a livable city but also a defensible one. Perhaps the scale (2-tile defense shot) was wrong again.

Slightly away from my OP, but my general thesis in Historical 4X game design is that any time you reduce the gamer's decisions simply to make the coding/design easier, like Fixed city sites, is inherently Incorrect. Better is to let the gamer make the historical mistakes, like putting a city next to a live volcano or trying to settle farmers on the edge of a militant-nomad-filled steppe, and let the (historical) consequences teach him not to make that mistake again.

And the ground and time scale in Civ games has always been 'off', sometimes horribly so. Archers that can shoot over a major city, or taking a couple of centuries to 'raise' a unit of slingers in 2000 BCE, or a 'battle' taking longer to resolve than the Hundred Year's War - these are all Game Design Problems that should be recognized as such and solutions for them explored.

I don't know what my thesis here is. I know I shouldn't criticize in a brainstorming phase, but I have to say where I think this line ends up. Help explain to me, who is aghast at the idea of making the engine for this game, ... what the game loop is. A game that is entirely particulars, is a narrative. We need something to call all these variances the same, so that we are dealing with numbers. Civ will always be a spreadsheet simulator, just one that has really compelling fluff or not.

The 'game loop' is designed to produce a requirement for a set of decisions by the gamer that are based on solving individual problems that beset his/her 'Civ' throughout the game, as those problems appear based on prior actions/decisions, in-game situations, or even game-produced Random Events such as appearance of new resources, neighbors, Disasters, Climate Change, etc. It is in contrast to what I see as the current Civ VI (and prior Civ games) 'loop' regarding Technological Progress, in which the gamer is invited to 'decide' which Tech to research based on a fixed, separate, and linear collection of progressive Techs with fixed end results that can be foreseen in every game from the start. This fixed system was only slightly modified by Civ VI's 'Eureka' system, since too many of the 'Eurekas' are only vaguely related to why someone should research a given Tech or how easy it would be to obtain it.

The result, ideally, would be to produce a more dynamic system of Civ development in which Tech, Civic, Social Policy, even Religion, Politics and Diplomacy are all entwined in producing solutions to individual Problems, and in turn produce (inevitably!) new Problems requiring new solutions. Given the guaranteed differences in random map starting positions, neighboring Civs, City States and other entities on those maps, Resources and terrain configurations, it should be very, very difficult for even the same Civ to produce exactly the same set of Problems after the very first turns of the game, so that games will constantly produce different situations to the gamer. As opposed to Civ VI now, in which, in Technological progress at least, the game produces very similar requirements all the time, which I think is a major failure of game design.

 

[9gkj548hkm20vk79dj689bnj4]

Reading about all these resource types is very dizzying.
Regarding animal and vegetable resources...Rather than having a name and graphic for all of them, however many dozens there are, perhaps the city (and the empire) can have a "variety" index. You would keep this "variety" high by having control over all of those lands (or biomes, if you want) in which all of those resources occur naturally.
Have a high food variety and you could make a special "dish" that can increase your tourism. "Pizza", "sushi", or whatever.

I'm not sure about mineral resources, since they seem to occur almost anywhere...

 

[Sostratus]

Reading about all these resource types is very dizzying.

I personally find the abstraction of food+bonus resources to be enough, even if they give "health" or some such mechanic a la civ4. If you really need that level of detail, it should be cosmetic - change what the crop fields look like. It's tough to know when to abstract and when to model things with content, though.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Techs, Units and Resources.
1. Pre-Agriculture: There were no settlers. this unit will be tribesman and wanders about. make a living on existing 'bonus resources' (Wheat and Rice, Cows, Sheeps and Deer)
2. Agriculture: First farms will be built on these bonus resources, (and once done, it disappears), Cows when penned will be part of farms.
3. Wood and Stone becomes construction resources. Forestry tech (Developed from Agriculture) should permits logging camp that can be built early.
4. Antiquity Tech
Wheels appear after archery. Chariots require horses,
5. Classical Era.
Stirrups, unlocks Cataphracts (This unit saw uses in many civs)
Variety of Heavy Cav choices based on resource availability. If you don't have iron you can't train cataphracts. if you have elephants you can train war elephants and it has its own upgrade lineage with same promo. which ultimately becomes AFV later in game. War elephants are slow but does siege damage in addition to heavy melee.
Construction now unlocks Classical Walls (While Ancient walls are cyclopean, Classical walls are more ordery built)
6. Gunpowder appears by the end of Middle Ages rather than the beginning of Renaissance. Resource unlocked is Sulfur and gunpowder units need this now
First gunpowder units are Bombard (Siege) and culverins (ranged / field artillery), And again. Pike&Shot (or Tercio if you will) now becomes standard infantry and unlocked by follow up tech--Firearms. (these concepts are used in my mod now)
7. Carracks will be renaissance melee ship. I don't agree with Caravels being chosen. Ranged ships of the era will be Galleons.
There will be eras between Renaissance and Industrial. it is called 'Early Modern' and roughtly 1680-1766. It has its own units, techs and civics
7.1 Units: Line Infantry, Cuirassier, Light Cavalry. Light Infantry, Field Cannon, Howitzer, Frigate and Ships of the Line
7.2 Techs: Flintlocks and Bayonets, Ballistics, Naval Engineering (for example)
8. Industrial Era will return to Civ5 concepts.
8.1 Units: Rifleman, Sharpshooter, Cavalry, Rifled Field Cannon, Siege Rifles, Ironclad (heavyweight battleship), Armored Cruiser (Lightweight steam powered melee ship), Merchant Raider
8.2 Techs: Rifling, Industrialization, Steam Power, Steel
8.3 Railroadings and Bridges across a shallow sea can be built, also tunnelings).
8.4 Railroads had its own movement rules, rather than dividing movement costs used. Land units moved on rail will all have the same movements regardless of class. however the units can only end his move around city or districts with rail access. (Similiar to Commander: The Great War game) https://store.steampowered.com/app/312350/Commander_The_Great_War/?l=thai

connecting lines are railrods. For example. Brits occupy Paris, Verdun and Rouen. they can move troops fast by train from Verdun to Rouen but troops moved by train losts all action points after movement ends.
My ideas for now.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I personally find the abstraction of food+bonus resources to be enough, even if they give "health" or some such mechanic a la civ4. If you really need that level of detail, it should be cosmetic - change what the crop fields look like. It's tough to know when to abstract and when to model things with content, though.

My personal Rule of Thumb and Game Design: Only model a resource separately if it has separate characteristics that for some reason you feel need to be included in the game.

So: Wheat, Barley, Millet, Rye - can all be modeled as a single resource because they aren't substantially different in how they are used or where they appear.
Rice - has to be separate because it is a Marsh/Floodplain resource and at a certain point (historically, Medieval Era) it can be modified to produce two crops a year, creating a massive Food Boost that is different compared to almost any other staple crop and historically significant (population Boom in Song China)
Gemstones - can stand in for all the individual gems: rubies, sapphires, diamonds, because they all have much the same use and appear on land.
Pearls - have to be separate because they alone appear in coastal (shellfish) tiles and very early (Classical Era) can be 'farmed' - China and Rome were both producing pearls in artificial oyster beds by then.
Deer, antelope, elk, moose - all are animals that can be hunted but not really domesticated or 'pasturized', so can all be shown as a single resource.
Reindeer Can be domesticated, so have to be shown as a separate Resource.

As a general rule, it works pretty well to keep the proliferation of resources to a minimum. IF there is no difference in the end-use or the map placement between two resources, then one of them is Redundant.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

^ I agree with you about Pearls.
What about Elephants? In civ4 Elephants are BOTH Strategic and Luxury resources. And in that game. War Elephants are universally available to all if you have access to elephants.
And what about Horses? what's your view regarding to horse breeding.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

^ I agree with you about Pearls.
What about Elephants? In civ4 Elephants are BOTH Strategic and Luxury resources. And in that game. War Elephants are universally available to all if you have access to elephants.
And what about Horses? what's your view regarding to horse breeding.

Elephants are a peculiar case. Technically, they have never been 'domesticated' in the sense of selectively bred in captivity (except in modern Zoos), they have always been caught in the wild, trained and used in both civilian (draft animals, construction) and war activities. That makes them different from the animals that can be bred and kept in herds in captivity (pastured). Also, the earliest indications of elephants in use by people (approximately 1000 BCE, or very earliest beginning of 'Classical' Era) are several thousand years after the other 'domestic' animals, including horses, sheep and cattle - all of which date back to 4000 BCE and earlier.
So, I would make them huntable animals from the start (it's hard not to notice elephants roaming the terrain, and they've been hunted for food since at least Homo Sapiens Neanderthalus) but require a Technology advance coming around the end of the Ancient Era to begin using them to enhance Production or as War Equipment.

Horses foraging on their own in the wild naturally reach about 14 hands in size. That puts them at the lower end of the modern 'riding horse' size (average for Arabians, Mustangs, American Paint and other popular breeds is 14 - 15.5 hands). Rule of thumb is that a horse can carry about 1/4 of its body weight, so the 'wild' horse can carry a man, but not a man and a heavy saddle, armor, weapons, etc.

In other words, any horse, including the wild breeds first domesticated in 3 - 4000 BCE in Eurasia, can carry an unarmored horse archer or 'light' cavalryman, but the larger horses required for armored horsemen (Hetairoi, Cataphracts, Knights, Cuirassiers) or to pull heavy chariots require that someone feed them extra food - like grain. That means not only do you have to pasture the horses, you have to grow 'people food' and feed it to them. Heavy War Horses take food away from people, it's that simple and part of the 'hidden cost' of Heavy Cavalry.
Another semi-modern use for 'heavy horses' is to haul Artillery and supplies. In 1941 the German Army attacked Russia with 600,000 motor vehicles and 800,000 horses, and most of those horses were 15 - 16 hands high, heavy breeds to haul 2 ton supply wagons or 3 - 5 ton medium and heavy artillery pieces. So, realistically (dangerous word, I know!) every artillery (non-siege) unit after Bombards should also require a Heavy Horse resource and more such resources should be required to keep units at full strength in the field. That, however, also requires Supply Line rules that Civ has virtually never had, and need to be carefully thought out to avoid burdening the gamer with ghastly levels of micromanagement (been there, played that, will never voluntarily do that again!)

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

1. This means animal strategic resources shouldn't remain still and this means worker has to approach them and perform 'catch' order. uh this will be gaming micro nightmaire. does 'Permanenet camp improvement' a correct facility to tap elephants?
2. Then 'Horse Resource' to express in game should be renamed 'War horses' and required by Heavycavs while light cavs don't neeeed one. eh? this mean (mod potential) Civ6 Cavalry in game terms can be trained without horse resource?? eh? did 'cavalry' in civ6 represents the likes of Hussars, Dragoons, and American Yellow Legs?
3. And this means upkeep model has to be revised.
4. What do you think about 'Attrition Systems' in games like Europa Universalis series, Rise of Nations, and Napoleon Total War?

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

1. This means animal strategic resources shouldn't remain still and this means worker has to approach them and perform 'catch' order. uh this will be gaming micro nightmaire. does 'Permanenet camp improvement' a correct facility to tap elephants?

Since the domesticable animals, with very few exceptions, were domesticated during the Neolithic (pre-4000 BCE) when the majority of 'civs' should be nomadic or semi-nomadic anyway, I'd rather go with a separate 'unit' for that Era/Pre-Era: something like Humankind's Tribesman or Tribe, which can 'catch' the wild animals and bring them along with the wandering group, turning them into pastorals from hunter-gatherers. Once 'domesticated' this way, the resource can be put into pastures if the Civ settles down, or remain a Domestic Herd and move with a pastoral/nomad Civ. To et the War Horses for heavy cavalry, though, you would have to 'settle down' or in some other way get a source for grain to 'feed up' the horses. The number of purely pastoral groups that produced heavy cavalry you can count on the fingers of one hand (Sarmatians, Alans, Mongols) and in every case they had access to 'settled' pastures and grain supplies either through Trade or 'client' settled states.
For elephants, I'd be tempted to require a special Camp that includes Training Facilities - elephants required a considerable investment to maintain and use, and that should be reflected. Each such Camp would provide X number of usable elephants, which could either be reserved as a resource to form elephant military Units, or used to add Production points as 'organic machinery' in construction and movement of goods and other resources.

2. Then 'Horse Resource' to express in game should be renamed 'War horses' and required by Heavycavs while light cavs don't neeeed one. eh? this mean (mod potential) Civ6 Cavalry in game terms can be trained without horse resource?? eh? did 'cavalry' in civ6 represents the likes of Hussars, Dragoons, and American Yellow Legs?

Basically, Civ VI has it backward in requiring Horses for light cavalry but not for heavy cavalry.
Technically, Hussars, Dragoons, and all the US Army's cavalry were Light Cavalry, because none of them wore armor and all had a reconnaissance function in addition to a battlefield function.

4. What do you think about 'Attrition Systems' in games like Europa Universalis series, Rise of Nations, and Napoleon Total War?

I have enjoyed the attrition in EU, but then I play as Muscovy or Novgorod a lot and it's always fun to see a massive enemy army melt away trying to get to Moscow or Novgorod from central Europe! That game and Napoleon Total War, which I've seen but not played, are more narrowly focused on a single Era/area of history, in which not having campaign attrition makes most of the military campaigns of that era of history nonsensical.
In a larger 4X Historical gaming context, attrition definitely has a place, but it has to include two basic Factors:
1. It should punish Fantasy Actions like marching an army across a continent of howling wilderness in the Classical Era and expecting it to arrive intact - or at all.
2. It must NOT require a gamer to constantly keep track of supply. The attrition factors should be transparent, simple, and obvious, like "Don't move a stack of units into Snow Tiles" or "Cavalry Units take attrition if they end their move on a Jungle Tile". There should be a really simple prgression: In Supply, no problem. Marginal Supply, combat factors are reduced because some men are wandering off looking for food or your horses are getting too weak. Out of Supply - Attrition Starts. I'd have the 'supply lines' on the map, like trade routes, and if the track starts showing Red, you are getting out of supply. Might even give you a really obvious signal, like when supply fails, your troops automatically Pillage every tile they pass through, as they go foraging for food and fodder.

Attrition/Supply would be a whole new Mechanic in a Civ game, so before even contemplating adding it to the game, it has to be completely thought out, and tested, and kept as simple as possible or it will simply add a level of frustration to the game, which Civ has enough of already.