If Asia didn't isolate itself
- Thread starter Kao'chai
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cybrxkhan
Asian Xwedodah
you can partly thank Confucius. (at least in China)
?
cybrxkhan
Asian Xwedodah
explaination:
in the simple way to think about it:
Confucianism (at least of that time) = somewhat extreme conservativsm.
Thus, it did not approve of world-spanning epic voyages, expanding-crazy-seemingly-pointless-at-the-time-innovations, or conquer-landmasses-thousands-of-miles-away campaigns. Rather, it believed the Emperor shoulda focused more on improving agricultural output and stuff like that
there was constantly a clash between the more liberal and conservative factions of the court. in the majority of the cases, the conservatives won; had they not, even in a few instances, then i am very sure China would not be like it is today - possibly much more powerful and affluent.
in the simple way to think about it:
Confucianism (at least of that time) = somewhat extreme conservativsm.
Thus, it did not approve of world-spanning epic voyages, expanding-crazy-seemingly-pointless-at-the-time-innovations, or conquer-landmasses-thousands-of-miles-away campaigns. Rather, it believed the Emperor shoulda focused more on improving agricultural output and stuff like that
there was constantly a clash between the more liberal and conservative factions of the court. in the majority of the cases, the conservatives won; had they not, even in a few instances, then i am very sure China would not be like it is today - possibly much more powerful and affluent.
innonimatu
the resident Cassandra
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I wouldn't be so sure of that conclusion. There was a reason confucianism was adopted as a "state ideology": it provided much-needed stability. There is danger in expanding: the chinese empire was periodically beset by revolts and anarchy, they would only become more frequent as it expanded (as a consequence of the lack of local control by the political center). More so if it expanded rapibly (which would create powerful generals and governors...).
The end result might have been a larger area of "cultural influence", but at the price of permanent political fragmentation.
cybrxkhan
Asian Xwedodah
^
well, i did say above that my conclusion was a simplistic way to think of it. the conservatives were, of course, very weary of past mistakes in expansion, and thus able to win most of the time because everyone preferred stability, yes.
well, i did say above that my conclusion was a simplistic way to think of it. the conservatives were, of course, very weary of past mistakes in expansion, and thus able to win most of the time because everyone preferred stability, yes.
IMHO, it was less about Confucianism than about old fashioned xenophobia and politics.
In the case of China (don't lump all the countries into the "Asia" category. Asia is too big for that) Confucianism and the isolationist, conservative elements associated with it certainly play a part. I suspect it is in the emperor's interest as well not to expand and engage with the wider world. As far as the Chinese were concerned, China is Zhong Guo, the central country, the centre of the world. Now if the Chinese sailors discover there were lands just as "civilised", just as rich or just as advanced, or more so, than China, then the emperor's position would be compromised to some extent. This sort of thinking is also why China (correction, the Chinese imperial establishment) is so resistance to modernisation and western ideas. And anyway, China in the Ming and Qing era is largely self-reliant, so the need to trade is less than in other societies like, say, Western European maritime powers hungry for eastern spices.
Japan is a similar case. Christianity is seen (perhaps rightly) as a destabilising force in the Shogunate. After a few years of openness (Red Seal Ships, Hasekura Tsunenaga) the Shoguns got cold feet and close their country from the outside world.
It's worth noting that neither of these countries closed themselves off completely from the outside world. Japan allowed Chinese and Dutch merchants near Nagasaki and it is known that some western knowledge seep into Japan during this time. China is arguably even more open. However, both countries had to potential to be even more powerful overseas and they sacrificed that for consolidation of their respective nations. And it worked quite well until the Industrial Revolution.
In the case of China (don't lump all the countries into the "Asia" category. Asia is too big for that) Confucianism and the isolationist, conservative elements associated with it certainly play a part. I suspect it is in the emperor's interest as well not to expand and engage with the wider world. As far as the Chinese were concerned, China is Zhong Guo, the central country, the centre of the world. Now if the Chinese sailors discover there were lands just as "civilised", just as rich or just as advanced, or more so, than China, then the emperor's position would be compromised to some extent. This sort of thinking is also why China (correction, the Chinese imperial establishment) is so resistance to modernisation and western ideas. And anyway, China in the Ming and Qing era is largely self-reliant, so the need to trade is less than in other societies like, say, Western European maritime powers hungry for eastern spices.
Japan is a similar case. Christianity is seen (perhaps rightly) as a destabilising force in the Shogunate. After a few years of openness (Red Seal Ships, Hasekura Tsunenaga) the Shoguns got cold feet and close their country from the outside world.
It's worth noting that neither of these countries closed themselves off completely from the outside world. Japan allowed Chinese and Dutch merchants near Nagasaki and it is known that some western knowledge seep into Japan during this time. China is arguably even more open. However, both countries had to potential to be even more powerful overseas and they sacrificed that for consolidation of their respective nations. And it worked quite well until the Industrial Revolution.
cybrxkhan
Asian Xwedodah
now, as for Vietnam... well, we were pretty much after the 1400s stuck in a massive civil war for a few centuries, so i'm pretty sure it wasn't too easy to send a couple colonists out to Australia or America.
well, i think the two got mixed up pretty nice.
well, i think the two got mixed up pretty nice.
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