If you could make a timeline of "most powerful european country/ies"

[brachy-pride]

How would it look

I just made an example of that:
First with Spain as the most powerful euro country from 1492 to the battle of rocroi.
Then France as the most powerful country till the french indian wars where France lost the almost parity with england on the sea.
After that I have both france and england sharing the most powerful euro country title.
Later, when Napoleon is exiled to elba I have england as the most powerful euro country.
England keeps the title for herself, till the french prussia wars, after that war she shares the title with germany.
Finally the Soviet Union gets the title, and after the fall of the soviet block I dont know who has it, the EU maybe?


Please, criticize it, it is just an example I made in 10 minutes for this thread with my microsoft paint skills

I will be first to do that, and say I should have included the ottoman empire, at least till lepanto, and maybe mentioned the netherlands because of their hegemony on the seas for much of the XVII century.

Anyway, what do you all think?

 

[brachy-pride]

Oh, and I am idiot, please move this to history forum, I am very sorry

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

This is how I would do it:

Rome, to AD 476, with the death of Romulus Augustulus

Theodoric's Ostrogoths in Ravenna pick up after that (454 to 526 AD)

Justinian takes back Rome (536 AD), Ravenna (540 AD), and most of the old Empire, putting the Eastern Roman Empire on top again.

Charlemagne's Holy Roman Empire, from 714 to 814

with the Treaty of Verdun in 843, the honor falls to the Kingdom of the Franks.

England picks up in 1337, with the outset of the Hundred Years' War, when she beats France over and over again. No real gains are made; England does not operate the large armies that France does, and cannot capitalize on her victories.
in 1453, the last of the Hundred Years' War is over, and, ironically, Constantinople falls. The Ottoman Empire becomes the most powerful civilization in Europe.

in 1492, Columbus sailed the ocean blue. Spain builds her massive 'New Spain,' I give the title to Spain from 1521 to 1714, when the War of Spanish Succession destroys her European holdings, and the Spanish Habsburgs go down the royal drain.

France, again, is the European power until 1815, when Britain and Prussia triumph at the Battle of Waterloo.

In 1815, the Congress of Vienna restores the status quo.

Thus the Concert of Europe begins, until 1866, when Italy and Germany beat the living crap out of Austria, and Germany begins her climb to the top. The deal is sealed with the Franco-Prussian War, and the declaration of the Second Reich in the Hall of Mirrors at Versailles.

Germany is large and in charge, with an army the size of Britain and France combined. From 1871 until 1918, Germany is numero uno.

The Treaty of Versaillies cripplies Germany, and France and England are the big boys until 1939, when Hitler's Germany begins World War Two.

The USSR becomes the new power in Europe with the fall of Berlin in 1945. This title holds until 1991, when the Soviet Republics declare independence.

I'm snot sure who the power in Europe is today, there aren't any hostilities anymore in Europe. I'd venture to say the most militarily capable would be Britain.

So that's my lineup.

 

[Elta]

What about Poland you both forgot Poland.

 

[Israelite9191]

This needs to be in history, not OT. Also, today I would say the EU has the most power in Europe. After that France (or maybe Britain) followed by Britain (or France) and Germany. If I could, I would say that besides the EU, the France-Germany block is the most powerful in Europe, but they do not always agree with each other.

Oh, and I would keep te Byzantines on top for longer.

 

[brachy-pride]

I have already apologized and mentioned the thread should be moved.

----

I only started the timeline from 1492 to make the example short, in an extended timeline I think I would have the byzantines on top more or less from the end of the controversies about icons till the battle of manzikert (and also from the end of the western roman empire till the islamic conquest)

 

[brachy-pride]

bump, mods, please move this thread to history forum

 

[zenspiderz]

I'd say that at the moment the most powerful country in europe is the US that is until the EU finds their testicles and then we are looking at the EU being possilbly the most powerful political block in ze vorld (fake german accent) woo haa hahaa...

 

[luiz]

By 1492 Portugal was probably still more powerful than Spain, or at least they were richer. It took some decades before Spain really begun to cash in on their conquest of the New World.

 

[kryszcztov]

I'd say that today, France and the UK share the title for number 1. We both have the same population (roughly, going better for France), the same wealth (roughly, still better for the UK), about the same army (not sure at all, but France certainly isn't a pu$$y, compared to the UK). There is one big difference, and it's about how both countries stand on the international scene : France always searches to follow her thoughts, whereas the UK is the USA's sucker.

The result is that, as long as the UK doesn't go deep into the EU, the EU won't be that strong. Add the UK in and the EU stands as the strongest block in the world.

Oh, and I think that France is the greatest country in Europe (maybe the world ? (Chinese Empire ?)) during Louis XIV's reign.

 

[Plotinus]

What about Poland you both forgot Poland.

Exactly. When it was united to Lithuania, Poland was one of the most powerful countries in Europe, and certainly the most powerful in eastern Europe.

Also, what of Bulgaria in the ninth century?

 

[brachy-pride]

By 1492 Portugal was probably still more powerful than Spain, or at least they were richer. It took some decades before Spain really begun to cash in on their conquest of the New World.

Yes, it was the wealthiest, but Portugal, like the Netherlands in the second half of the XVII century, lacked the manpower to be considered most powerful countries-

For example, I think in 1492 Portugal had a population of around 1 million, and Spain 6 millions and a half

 

[sydhe]

From 924 until 1190 It should be the Holy Roman Empire. (The end point is the death of Frederick Barbarossa) France was very weak in the tenth and eleventh centuries.

You can also make a case for the Plantagenet domain from 1154 until about 1204.

France was the strongest from 1643 until c1750, but I think a case could be made for Russia from 1763 until the 1790s.

 

[Adler17]

A list:

- Until 476: Roman Empire (end by the forced resigning of Romulus Augustulus due to Odoaker)

- Until 800: East Roman Empire (indeed all Germanic empires in Italy recognized the East Roman emperor as sovereign, at least nominally, like he accepted the kingdoms as his "vassals")

- 800- 911: Frankish empire (starting with Carolus Magnus becoming Roman emperor)

- 911- 1556: Holy Roman Empire of German Nation (After the breaking of the Frankish Empire and the coronation of Otto the Great 962; as the Kaiser lost more and more power in this time, we can discuss about the end, but I still don't see another power strong enough to dominate Europe)

- 1556- 1648: Spain (After the abdication of Charles V. as also Spanish king in 1556)

- 1648- 1815: France (After the end of the 30 years war with weakened neighbours (Spain due to revolts, Germany due to the war).

- 1815- 1870/ 71: Britain (after Waterloo)

- 1870/ 71- 1919: Germany (after the unification)

- 1919- 1939: Britain (after Versailles)

- 1939- 1945: Germany (under the rule of an Austrian)

- 1945- 1989: USSR (after ww2)

- 1989- : European Union (fall of the Iron Curtain; if not, perhaps again France and Germany)

As here are dates given and history is mostly a thing to evolve we can discuss the beginnings.

Adler

 

[Willowmound]

Also, today I would say the EU has the most power in Europe. After that France (or maybe Britain) followed by Britain (or France) and Germany. If I could, I would say that besides the EU, the France-Germany block is the most powerful in Europe, but they do not always agree with each other.

The EU is France and Britain and Germany. Amongst many others.

 

[Archduke Otto]

Thus the Concert of Europe begins, until 1866, when Italy and Germany beat the living crap out of Austria, and Germany begins her climb to the top. The deal is sealed with the Franco-Prussian War, and the declaration of the Second Reich in the Hall of Mirrors at Versailles.

I agree with this; however, Italy didn't beat anything out of anyone. Rather, Italy made itself the laughing stock of Europe in this war.

 

[ParkCungHee]

I don't agree that England and Germany had comparable power between 1871 and 1945. If Germany had not already done so by 1871, by 1914 Germany was clearly the most powerful nation in Europe. Italy, England, France and Russia all declared war on Germany and nearly lost. After 1919 England takes over until some point until the 1930s where Russia takes over until 1988, Germany never quite achieved parity with the Soviet Union, it came closest in 1941 and still lost.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

I agree with this; however, Italy didn't beat anything out of anyone. Rather, Italy made itself the laughing stock of Europe in this war.

Didn't Italy grab Venice during this war?

 

[sydhe]

Italy lost both on land and at sea (Lissa) to Austria. They only got Venice because Prussia beat Austria and forced it to give up Venetia to Italy.

 

[Adler17]

sydhe is right. Even the next war they only won because of German assistance, as the French troops guarding the Vatican state were retreated. So the Italians were able to win. The next war against the Ottoman empire the Italians won, too, but that was not a war for a hero's epic. The next war was lost, as they were unable to conquer Ethiopia. In ww1 they switched the sides and attacked Austria in a mountaineous area with not many Austrian regular troops. Although they were in majority, Austrian militias and regular troops were stopping them in the Alps. In the following time the Italians tried 11 times to break through the Austrian lines at the Isonzo. Never they were successful. In 1917 the Austrians started the last Isonzo battle, with German assistance. And they were successful. This de facto KOed Italy from the war. Indeed the last battle the Italians started and won, was a few days before armistice...
The next war is the second war with Ethiopia. Also not a glorious victory. And a little later, they finally decided to join Germany, but not before France was beaten. In ww2 German troops had to help the Italians several times, in Greece and North Africa. Then again the Italians switched the sides but despite a great offensive in Italy, Northern Italy was still German occupied in May 1945.
In the next wars they lead they did not play a very important role.

Adler