Imagine - Probably one of the best songs every written

Seems like there is a lot of 'Attack the messenger' not the 'message' itself.

I have not been a big fan of religion, based on a 'big man in the sky' and then interpreted 100s of different ways causing millions of people to die because of a point of difference. Then the value of countries means little to me, and my patriotism is virtually zero, given how much negative things have been done to other countries because a leader did something or whatever. Nation states divides people, as does religion, race and ethnicity.

If we all come from the perspective of being a citizen of the world and everyone is equal, i.e. 'brotherhood of man', a lot of global problems can be addressed as a whole.

And this I see as the main point of the words used in the song.
 
hahahahahahahahahahahaha

no.
 
I'm a proud out-of-the-closet uptopian but I think simplistic songs like these give utopianism a bad name. Creating a uptopia is a lot of work, it takes more than just a little imagination.
 
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You aren't getting ripped. I was unaware that John Lennon was a perpetrator of domestic violence, much as I wasn't aware that Cosby was a sexual predator until the standup comedy of Hannibal Burres.

Ha! Good news for once, and thanks for the reply Antilogic.

I think you are likely right about everything you wrote Valka D'Ur, good points all imo. One thing, likely not too prevalent, when I see Gibson playing Wallace I don't think of him as Gibson, I think of him as Wallace. Silly maybe, but who he is irl doesn't seem to come into it. I don't know if Wallace was a bigot, know he hated the English which isn't something to take issue with, I mean, who doesn't? ;)

When I hear John Lennon singing I get the image of him taking a swing at a woman and treating his kid like garbage, and I can't get past it to enjoy the song. When he's singing he is Lennon, and all his blowing air around about making this a wonderful world just doesn't sit well as he made it hell on Earth for his child etc.

Might be a strange way to look at two different art forms. :dunno:
 
Seems like there is a lot of 'Attack the messenger' not the 'message' itself.

I have not been a big fan of religion, based on a 'big man in the sky' and then interpreted 100s of different ways causing millions of people to die because of a point of difference. Then the value of countries means little to me, and my patriotism is virtually zero, given how much negative things have been done to other countries because a leader did something or whatever. Nation states divides people, as does religion, race and ethnicity.

If we all come from the perspective of being a citizen of the world and everyone is equal, i.e. 'brotherhood of man', a lot of global problems can be addressed as a whole.

And this I see as the main point of the words used in the song.

I'll take a wild guess here and suggest that God likely feels the same about most governments and religions. Both are about power and money. Faith in God is something else entirely. So much love... God for some reason loves us or at least some of us, don't know which. That's kinda nice, all things considered. So Lennon is throwing out the baby with the bath water as they used to say. Don't judge God and Jesus by the religions that have abused their power. Did I mention that people suck? God doesn't suck because people do.
 
... God ...
Except that there is no evidence that God exist, other than some random ramblings by men. But that is probably for another thread.

So while, John Lennon may have been a 'bad' person, it does not change the fact that his words form quite a good idea. And yes to implement his 'vision' would take a lot of time, given the high levels of vested interests (many of which even may attack the man), it is still something one day worth striving for. If for nothing else than a better world for all.
 
Sure there's evidence, some don't consider it totally conclusive however and no matter how incredibly conclusive this is, they cannot accept. My favorite is the cosmological constant. Those who cannot accept the existence of God created the multiverse, which takes a whole lot more faith to believe in than God. Basically the theory is there are an infinite # of dead universes out there which were required to bring about one universe which has the cosmological constant and can sustain life. Well, "some random ramblings by men" covers this fairly well imo, as does "there is no evidence".

So, with no evidence that God doesn't exist and stuff like the cosmological constant saying he does the removal of all religion is a vile thing to many. While the world would be better off without some of the more entrenched religions leadership which squeeze for every buck and have fat bank accounts, the people who find God through these corrupt organizations can be quite decent folks. Add to that I was, and still am, a member of a church in Jersey that was fairly decent top to bottom, at least until they built themselves a fancy church instead of using that money to help the poor and spread the faith. Still, a lot of decent people go there and opposed that expense. I guess one can't judge the believers in a religion by the leadership and one definitely can't judge God by them, though many do.

Here ya go, 'Camperkillercommentary', enjoy. All you need to know about the cosmological constant. The only thing I don't like about his interpretation is there is life in those other universes, which, without the constant, is impossible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGQu562OsuE

Just looked and this thread is RD so maybe we should move on. Then again Lennon sung about 'no religion too' so there is a connection. :dunno:
 
The song is a terrible song and is massively as far away from reality as possible. We don't need to imagine a world without religion, it was tried numerous times and the end result was massive bloodshed or a totalitarian society where the people have no freedoms and are brutally crushed by the state. The irony is that in trying to remove God, they just replaced him with the State.
 
Sure there's evidence, some don't consider it totally conclusive however and no matter how incredibly conclusive this is, they cannot accept.
What evidence do you have that can be scientifically tested against other possible alternatives, etc.
[some of] those who cannot accept the existence of God created the multiverse, which takes a whole lot more faith to believe in than God.
Simply more 'ramblings of men'. I suspect we will never ever know the origin the universe (or the existence of God for that matter), but also I simply don't care about that. It is one of those many unsolvable problems we have because of lack of evidence and we formulate hypotheses for which to test with, which may or may not become theories, and eventually laws of science.
So, with no evidence that God doesn't exist
This is a typical weak argument used by believers on the naive. i.e. 'Because there is no evidence he does not exist, therefore he must exist'. However, as they say in mathematics you can not prove a 'negative'.

I suspect we will only ever be living on this or nearby worlds in our own solar system for the foreseeable future. Which is why I think we need to formulate a new system where people are not fighting each other for whatever reason, be it religion, nationality or wealth (or lack thereof). This is the idea I get from this song.

Just because we may have tried some ideas (i.e. Religion failed, Aristocracy failed, Communism failed, Capitalism failed), which were then usurped by power-hungry leaders, does not mean we should not continue to try to find some way of uniting us all in peace and as one.
I'm a proud out-of-the-closet uptopian but I think simplistic songs like these give utopianism a bad name. Creating a uptopia is a lot of work, it takes more than just a little imagination.
Exactly. But we need to determine what the best principles a better world requires. And I believe this is a good starting point - Humanism
Spoiler :
Humanism is a progressive philosophy of life that, without supernaturalism, affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good of humanity.

The lifestance of Humanism—guided by reason, inspired by compassion, and informed by experience—encourages us to live life well and fully. It evolved through the ages and continues to develop through the efforts of thoughtful people who recognize that values and ideals, however carefully wrought, are subject to change as our knowledge and understandings advance.

This document is part of an ongoing effort to manifest in clear and positive terms the conceptual boundaries of Humanism, not what we must believe but a consensus of what we do believe. It is in this sense that we affirm the following:

Knowledge of the world is derived by observation, experimentation, and rational analysis. Humanists find that science is the best method for determining this knowledge as well as for solving problems and developing beneficial technologies. We also recognize the value of new departures in thought, the arts, and inner experience—each subject to analysis by critical intelligence.

Humans are an integral part of nature, the result of unguided evolutionary change. Humanists recognize nature as self-existing. We accept our life as all and enough, distinguishing things as they are from things as we might wish or imagine them to be. We welcome the challenges of the future, and are drawn to and undaunted by the yet to be known.

Ethical values are derived from human need and interest as tested by experience. Humanists ground values in human welfare shaped by human circumstances, interests, and concerns and extended to the global ecosystem and beyond. We are committed to treating each person as having inherent worth and dignity, and to making informed choices in a context of freedom consonant with responsibility.

Life's fulfillment emerges from individual participation in the service of humane ideals. We aim for our fullest possible development and animate our lives with a deep sense of purpose, finding wonder and awe in the joys and beauties of human existence, its challenges and tragedies, and even in the inevitability and finality of death. Humanists rely on the rich heritage of human culture and the lifestance of Humanism to provide comfort in times of want and encouragement in times of plenty.

Humans are social by nature and find meaning in relationships. Humanists long for and strive toward a world of mutual care and concern, free of cruelty and its consequences, where differences are resolved cooperatively without resorting to violence. The joining of individuality with interdependence enriches our lives, encourages us to enrich the lives of others, and inspires hope of attaining peace, justice, and opportunity for all.

Working to benefit society maximizes individual happiness. Progressive cultures have worked to free humanity from the brutalities of mere survival and to reduce suffering, improve society, and develop global community. We seek to minimize the inequities of circumstance and ability, and we support a just distribution of nature's resources and the fruits of human effort so that as many as possible can enjoy a good life.

Humanists are concerned for the well being of all, are committed to diversity, and respect those of differing yet humane views. We work to uphold the equal enjoyment of human rights and civil liberties in an open, secular society and maintain it is a civic duty to participate in the democratic process and a planetary duty to protect nature's integrity, diversity, and beauty in a secure, sustainable manner.

Thus engaged in the flow of life, we aspire to this vision with the informed conviction that humanity has the ability to progress toward its highest ideals. The responsibility for our lives and the kind of world in which we live is ours and ours alone.

http://americanhumanist.org/Humanism/Humanist_Manifesto_III
 
You forgot one...

Sure there's evidence, some don't consider it totally conclusive however and no matter how incredibly conclusive this is, they cannot accept.
 
You probably meant "sure there's no hard evidence, some do consider it totally conclusive however and no matter how it requires incredible wishful thinking, they take it as truth".
 
Thanks, but I can say what's on my mind fairly well still.
 
Is it possible to listen to a song and enjoy it, knowing that the singer is a bad person?

Likewise, I still enjoy The Cosby Show and Jell-o. For example.

John Lennon by the way doesn't sing at all about abandoning beliefs in God in this song.. He just sings about the end of organized religion. Even Jesus said to worship your God during your own personal time, not at church. (I think he did say that, anyhow). The point of the song is to remove the divisions between people we've artificially created - such as nations and organized religion. Belief in God doesn't have to go away - that is not the problem (as John saw it). I mean, I'm sure he didn't believe in God himself, but this particular song seems to single out religion - not God.
 
Well, he did toss heaven. :dunno:

Anyway I'm ready to move on from this thread, best of luck with it.
 
I lived once in the country whose creators tried to destroy heaven, hell, countries and possessions.

Thank you but one time is enough.
 
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