Immortal Cookbook II: Pericles of Greece

[Kaleb]

1. This capital is screaming for an oxford, the players closest to getting it is Jet given he has 6 large cities capable of whipping university And he has stone. RR, Abeig have Education but no stone, Kaleb has stone but no Education but prob close to bulbing Edu.

Argh, DANG BLAST IT! Wrong screenshot there, that tech screenie is actually from 540AD. I do actually have Education already, notice Athens has a University already. I can check again but I think a couple of other cities are already building Unis.

I'm going for Machinery to then get Optics enabling me to get Astronomy when I go for Lib.

3. City placement, some cities are place that many tiles are not usable. With exception of intention of claiming multiple important resources.

Yeah, the NW corner has some marginal city locations, there is one definite spot by the rivers that I'll build in but I'm not sure I put Halicarnassus in the best spot

p.s I have aleady played to 840 so I can post what happened after that as a spoiler if anyone is interested...??

 

[carl corey]

Abegweit sent me a very compelling PM, and I'll come with a proposition based on his message. As several people have noticed, this has been a rather short round, especially compared to the first one, and while quite a few people have some plans in mind it's not obvious to everybody what those plans are and especially how well they will come to fruition.

So, since ABigCivFan has already played his game up to 1200 AD, I propose to give a little more liberty to each player. We'll still vote (and I plan to do so after analyzing the saves tonight), still don't include our own save in the vote (too much bias ), but for the next round you can play either from the save you think is best or from your own save. This way you can reach the conclusion of your plan (whether from your own game or one better suited for the same plan) and in a way validate the choices you've made by 600AD.

The reason for which I still want us to vote is that I know I wouldn't be in the position I am now without Abegweit's first round. I still have a lot to learn at Immortal and analyzing the current saves and voting on them will help me (and I think will help us all).

For the next game we'll probably change round length to go 4000BC-1AD-1000AD-1600AD-victory, so we can more easily each of our plans unfolding.

 

[ABigCivFan]

The new round length looks good.

How about we allow each player to play from EITHER the winner of the round Or his own save for each round? Then at the end of each round have a bit more strategy discussion to point out other saves strength and weakness. That would make this cookbook series even more educational and fun.

Here is my vote:

Kaleb 3pts
Abeig 2pts
RR 1 pt

 

[carl corey]

Yeah, I was torn between playing from "my save or the save I deem best" or "my save or the save we deem best". I guess the latter is more in the spirit of the series.

Not sure whether to extend this to the series itself or not; the voting process tries to eliminate the bias toward our own save, but at the same time if we don't manage to convey all our plans when presenting our saves others will probably miss things we take for granted or "see" subconsciously. What I don't want the series to become is a way to show our game without much interaction between players as the learning process would be slowed down a lot.

I propose to extend the "own save or best save" for the rest of this game, as it's a bit of a learning experience in term of organizing this series and draw a conclusion at the end of it.

 

[Abegweit]

This is a very tough voting round...

I have a few general observations:

1. This capital is screaming for an oxford, the players closest to getting it is Jet given he has 6 large cities capable of whipping university And he has stone. RR, Abeig have Education but no stone, Kaleb has stone but no Education but prob close to bulbing Edu.

Stone is easy to get in all saves. However this whole discussion is a little off base, since the real question is what the objective is. We haven't discussed that at all. If the objective is a completely peaceful space win, then Oxford is important. Even more important, however, is the potential empire which the save can support, both in terms of the capital and elsewhere. If the objective is war, then Oxford is secondary to getting key military techs. In this regard Carl, with Engineering, is the leader ATM.

2. Research. Some players are researching down machinary/engineering for war advantage. It is interesting that these techs could be easily traded for paper/Education. In Carl's case, with Engineering he might be able to gain much more land from Sury. But this process will take a long time given the low production atm and delay education and city developments. Besides, there are plenty of good land to work with already.

Agreed. Carl's save is a special case. For the others, the Liberalism race is more important.

 

[carl corey]

Especially with a Philosophical leader and stone easily available I tend to go all out for Oxford. However, in this game we've had a lot of cottaged cities and few that would quickly generate great persons and that's what delayed Education for me. Waiting for Sparta (I think?) to generate a GS is probably suboptimal, but since I'm already ok production-wise I don't mind losing it to great person generation.

Plus, I've had bad experiences with having a low power at Immortal so far: in the first IMC I've been double declared on while Pleased with both leaders (one of which was really far from me, so no shared borders) and you can see what happened in this one. So I chose diplomacy (didn't work with Sury, but so far worked with Cathy and Bismark) and military techs + military build-up at a time when I'm usually calmly building universities.

This all resulted in me having Machinery & Engineering before Education, and the current war plus the fact that I unlocked HE and have an MI makes me think I'll hold off building Oxford for a while as the production cities will focus on troops. I'm trying to adapt my game to both the map and the current situation and I hope it will all go well.

 

[ABigCivFan]

The reason why Oxford in this game is so important is because most players derive most of his research from the capital. And the best possible way to boost empire research ATM IS Oxford. We also have the cheap universities.

And since many saves are cottage heavy, the next big boost will come from Democracy. Of cause, a representation powered SE will be quite powerful here as well.

Spoiler :

I am focusing on research/growth/production in my cities and they will be very well suited for troop production. (check out my troop production capability in my 1200AD save)

Higher research will get you the key military techs sooner than others, higher research will also get you the more important production/research/growth enhancing techs sooner as well. And the early advantage grows exponentially.

This is a large map, you will need more than a single key military tech to win dom/conquest. Commerce/Research is the true driver to achieve the most dominating victory, any victory.

 

[carl corey]

Your assessment is entirely correct about boosting research and its benefits. However we are already ahead in tech compared to the AIs. Being even more ahead is an option. Building an army of Trebs/Maces/War Elephants is another. Even after building an army we'd have no problem getting Liberalism ahead of the AIs, so the choice isn't between army and Liberalism. It's between army + later Liberalism and Liberalism + later army.

 

[carl corey]

Oh, and just to clarify, I think both options are doable. Faced with a similar choice in EMCI I went for boosted teching when others went with enlarging their teritorry through war.

 

[Abegweit]

As I said, for the long term game Oxford is only one of several considerations. Two rounds difference in its acquisition do not make or break the game. Other important things include the diplomatic situation, the long-term potential of the capital, city placement and the overall empire.

Short term considerations: I expect to have the AI on the mat real quick. Cathy is very backward (doesn't have CoL or Machines) and Sury is even worse off so I might well start the wars earlier than Cannons, maybe at Engineering. Machinery is available in my save but I don't want to break my monopolies to get it. Still... if someone gets frisky, I certainly will.

Edit: x-post with Carl. Most of the same points.

 

[ABigCivFan]

Yes, the options at this point really do not matter too much given our superior position. I fully expect anyone can take down the backwards Sury with Mace/Treb/phants at a slightly slow pace. Curi/Cavalry/Spies/cannons would probably lead to a faster domination victory.

Also, strategically I would target Cathy first since she has a lot of land and is capable of catching up in tech rather quickly.

It would make more sense to have these discussions when the game is tight and competition is more stiff.

 

[Abegweit]

Yep. Cathy is certainly the normal target. Aside from what you said, she is stronger and can't be trusted. Of course, Carl didn't have a choice in the matter.

 

[carl corey]

I did, but I decided to spare her and fight only one war at a time.

 

[RRRaskolnikov]

Curi/Cavalry/Spies/cannons would probably lead to a faster domination victory.

Also, strategically I would target Cathy first since she has a lot of land and is capable of catching up in tech rather quickly.

I totally agree with those two points... A mediaval war is always longer because of castles (which gunpowder units ignore).
And Cathy has to go first because of its land (Carl's save excepted )...

Carl talked about the lib -> war or war -> lib dilemma... I always hesitate on this a this level... I am more confident at emperor but immortal AIs's production seem much much better, that's why I am aiming to Steel... to have a better advantage... perhaps a bad judgement here (immortal veterans?).

Cheers,

Raskolnikov

 

[carl corey]

immortal AIs's production seem much much better

Indeed. I guess bringing Bismark in the war was a good decision after all. One vs one against Sury would probably have been a tie, as even with less advanced units the numbers he'd have available to throw at me would have kept me in place.

 

[Kaleb]

In my game later on...

Spoiler :

I get Great Library, Lib->Astronomy, and then trade for the Engineering. I already have a couple of Elephants when Sury declares war. Bismark joins the party and no sooner have I killed Sury's stack than Sury is retreating to defend against Bismark. Very funny!

I am trading a lot with Cathy but I still need to boost my deterrent to prevent her attacking me whilst I crap on Sury.

 

[carl corey]

Comparative analysis:

ABigCivFan - Great capital. Weak military but good diplomacy to keep Sury (who's Friendly) and Cathy (Pleased) out of our hair. Still place to expand, and we're building settlers for it. Not sure we'll get the barb cities. Then again, the AI proved incapable of getting them until now! Heroic Epic unlocked, need to backfill Aesthetics and Literature for it (not that it's a problem...). Universities -> Oxford plan well on its way.

Raskolnikov - good tech lead except on Lincoln and Wang who are "only" behind in Education and the soon to be finished Liberalism. And the free tech. Ok, they're all behind. Good expansion, although I (obviously) would have liked the southern barb city too. More powerful than the CivFan, but worse relations with Sury. Luckily, Sury is otherwise engaged.

King Morgan - a bit behind the other saves, although still in an ok position. The city at the "city here" sign will go to Cathy who has a settler there already, but there are a couple more cities to found/capture (second barb city). Sury's Friendly, so no problems from there.

Abegweit - good expansion, with chances to take Visigoth too. Good teching. Sury Cautious and with troops near our borders though. Me not like. And Cathy's also Cautious, which might pose problems if Sury declares on us. We should improve the diplomatic situation unless we want a two front war. Fortunately we have Feudalism for Longbows. (never thought I'd get to say that!) We're also building forge in quite a few cities, which means our production will rise soon. That should keep us out of trouble.

Jet - Interesting choice to go for Gunpowder now. Although we'll need Metal Casting, Machinery and Engineering to research/bulb Chemistry. Should be doable with trades/self research. Just go within one turn of Liberalism and backtrack. Pleased with Cathy, Friendly with Sury, give me peace of mind.

Kaleb - Interesting choice to get both Shwedagon Paya and the Great Library. Running Free Religion early is a good thing in such a charged religious climate. Sury on the other hand is a bit worrying. I assume that the few troops that he has in your territory are there due to the tile changing owners. We're at peace for now but we should take measures to either increase our diplomatic rating with him, or our power, or both.

Votes:

1. Raskolnikov - 3 points
2. ABigCivFan - 2 points
3. Kaleb - 1 point

 

[Abegweit]

@Carl. Good analysis. You certainly spotted the defect in my game - diplomacy and especially the danger of a back-stabbing AI. However the window for an attack by either Cathy or Sury is extremely small. Not only do I have longbows but I can get maces any time I want and both civs are backward. It would be annoying to get my iron pillaged before the second source comes online in about 7 turns. There are also possible allies in war against either of them.

 

[Abegweit]

Here's my comments as a supplement to Carl's. I basically agree with everything he said but thought some additional points might be in order.

Kaleb: Excellent tech rate. By far the best in this category, which after all may well be the most important category of all. Odd research path though. Danger! Sury is cautious and in WHEORN. Kaleb is the logical target. Since the DoW is to be expected, the research path may not be so odd after all.

Carl Corey: Yet another DOW! Seems to be afflicted by them. The barb galley and the pillaged crabs in the north is still more bad luck. On the plus side, he has dealt with said afflictions quite well. While he is quite a bit behind most other saves in the tech race, his opponents are even further back. Capital has been whipped badly but, as tech is not an issue, who really cares.

RR: relative to other saves the tech rate is poor and the opponents advanced. Also agree with CivFan that the GPs were not used optimally. Still... these are just minor drawbacks. Generally good overall.

ABigCivFan: played well.

Overall: very little to choose between the top five saves or so. My (hairpin) choices:

Votes:

Carl Corey: because it's a different game and has been well-played.

RR: top in score. No big drawbacks.

Kaleb: that tech rate is awesome!

 

[carl corey]

Hey, just because we can play from our own save doesn't mean that we don't have to vote! So far I've seen 4 votes, that leaves 3 people who have submitted a save and haven't voted. This doesn't make me very likely to continue with the rule of "own save or best save" in the future.

Edit: 4 votes and 3 who haven't voted. Missed Ras's votes on the previous page.