Immortal OCC (PART II)

[obsolete]

I am debating on putting up a deity OCC... There may not be that many players left here who can pull it off, but I can try to cherry-pick using the regenerator for a good starting spot.

Question is, what leader to choose...

As a side-note, I can also reduce the map-size down one level... it's a bit of a cheat but maybe will not discourage everyone when they know they have a chance. Ahah!

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Imho, a PHI leader would be nice to offset how much harder it would be to amass wonders. IND, SPI & FIN are attractive, too.

On Deity, getting a large tech lead may be very difficult,
Therefore, farming xp in a defensive war may be the wise choice, before going on the offensive.
One thing you don't want when warring with a single city is to suffer heavy casualties.


Elizabeth would be pretty busted. PHI, FIN, Redcoats, Stock Exchange. Marble/Stone would put her over the top.

There are a number of other very good leaders, though (Mansa, Gandhi, Huayna, Peter, etc. Even Stalin, Wang Kon or Sitting Bull and most others wouldn't be total letdowns).
I don't think any single one is a necessary pick. The "trouble" with choosing a leader + cooking the map is that it scripts how the map should be played before hand.

If you feel attracted to a leader, feel free to pick him up.
Cooking the map, otoh, I'm more reluctant to accept. I'd much rather have you regenerate a few times, until you get an acceptably strong start.

Given a top-30 leader, the map is probably what matters the most, when it comes to winning the game.

 

[RedKirrHelper]

I think RamII could be good for a strong start at map of standard size (smaller map with strong start could be easy as Immortal). So, if lucky with AIs then RamII should able to win through Space using Spiritual-diplo to keep AIs in wars and so on.

 

[obsolete]

I really hate financial leaders... it's always been the ROOKIE trait... and always will be. I would much rather have something useful for a hard game... Fin for immortal I guess if people REALLY want it, but I am not staking my life with it on deity. Haw!

As for Rammy, Spiritual leaders got badly nerfed in BtS... I feel it's a huge waste. I suppose if you really need it for diplo... but honestly... I like to be the one doing the butt-kicking... and not on my knees begging. Seems you're putting yourself in a begging corner already with spiritual...

 

[yyeah]

For deity OCC, i more like to play good start with good leader on normal size map.
You are saying that you dont especialy want to play Fin, well its best trait but one can win game without it right .
As i realy like Spi , i think that this trait affect my gameplay at moust. I think its not v usefull in OCC... i rather to have Cre... even.
Anyway so what top traits left.
Phi, Ind, Charismatic maybe Expansive.
Considering this.
Maybe Lincoln ? Can you draft Marines ? .
Peter ?
Bismark ?
Sury ?
Washington ?
Cyrus ?
Theres allso Pericles but iam not a huge fan of hes starting techs and played him recently.
Another guy is Luis but French again ?

 

[lymond]

I think FIN is one of the worst traits for OCC

Any Philo or Industrial leader is best. I'd say Peter, Biz, Ghandi and Rambo are best for OCC, as their other trait at least provides some sort of advantage, even if temporary like Expansive. But that extra healthy early can really help with your growth since NP comes later. Ofc, depends on what type of game you are playing too. De Gaulle, Louis, Qin...all good...france and china with nice starting techs.

and..yeah...spiritual is always nice...and kinda useful for OCC as well. I don't change civics much in OCC and generally don't use slavery at all, but saving turns is useful. But also cheap temples are nice for extra growth and happiness..and I can usually catch a religion or two while likely founding one or two as well. You can put off globe for some time. Growth is so important in OCC.

 

[yyeah]

Why you think so ?

Edit,

Yea growth is v importand that why i put there Washington too. He had like maybe seperate not great techs but togather they are preety good.
Like one can have cheep Grenary +/+ 2 with monument and if theres option to grab some happy stuff one can reach even s10 in no time.

 

[lymond]

Why you think so ?

you mean about FIN. I don't think I've ever built a cottage in an OCC game. I find no value in it.

OCC is about growth, production and great people. 's are rather irrelevant, although having gold or gem is always nice for early teching..and happy

FIN might be a bit helpful if you go the NP, Enviro, preserve route later, but much of that benefit comes rather late and won't compare to the science you get from Rep and settled great people.

otherwise, cottaging sacrifices growth and production too much...and forest/forest growth

 

[yyeah]

you mean about FIN. I don't think I've ever built a cottage in an OCC game. I find no value in it.

OCC is about growth, production and great people. 's are rather irrelevant, although having gold or gem is always nice for early teching..and happy

FIN might be a bit helpful if you go the NP, Enviro, preserve route later, but much of that benefit comes rather late and won't compare to the science you get from Rep and settled great people.

otherwise, cottaging sacrifices growth and production too much...and forest/forest growth

Depends about play style, last game when i put some cottages i was a lot faster inn teching then in prev game. I think some cottages NP is a way to go for me, and GPs offcourse.
yea Mids are priceless but one can allwasy bulid them, even without Ind... with stone.
Depends on map like everything

 

[obsolete]

You are saying that you dont especialy want to play Fin, well its best trait but one can win game without it right

I've said it before, I'll say it again. Financial trait is garbage...

Ok, enough bashing Financial leaders... I just did a quick run right now using Augustus... I'll put the auto-save up on the forum in a few mins. Though this one was on Immortal again.

 

[obsolete]

I like this spot looks like i dont have to settle GM's here to have a bit more food

I cant not tell if this is sarcasm or not... but just in case it isn't...

I did some thinking on that a decade ago... but only getting 1 loaf seems to be running into diminishing returns too much. If it were 2.. then of course I'd be all for it.. ahah!

Also, there is the happy and the health caps which we run into... not to mention hard-limit caps... At least the happy can be solved early and even removed... but the health.... is the problem.

Maybe I can experiment a little with it though. I'll do a run on it.

 

[yyeah]

That wasnt sarcasm. I was happy to see good food here compereable to part 1.
In part 1 i was settling GM's just to have a bit more food.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Yes, the food surplus has diminishing returns, requiring ever more food to grow a single size over that many...
... yet, I do agree with yyeah if he meant that this start has been the strongest of the first 3 in this series.


This has been the strongest start because it had the highest food surplus.
Nuff said. Games prove it.


Start 1 had disturbingly low food. yyeah spoke in contrast.

 

[obsolete]

Ok, after my trial just now.... the merchant system was horrible and failed terribly. I somewhat re-learned something I knew already 10 years ago not to do, ahah.

Basically, your tech rate sucks... I ended up ass-backwards.... you get raped two-fold... the first because the ACTIVE specialists do not deliver beakers. The second.... because the settled specialists do not deliver beakers either. Getting up to 4 loaves of bread may seem interesting and all, but because you are so horribly backwards by then.... it just is utter fail.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Yes, the extra food is nice but you only need so much extra gold.

 

[yyeah]

@ obsolete
@ BornInCantaloup

Size gives you . With rep specialist provieds .
With only one costal city without spots for cottages size is a lot more importand then usuall.
If one have like 500->600->700 free , one can ezy buy techs like CoL, MC, Aste, Lit, etc.etc.
I bought a lot of techs for gold, ealry and mid game, spending 2k-3k for tech later was nothing to me.

Iam not saying that this is optimal, that play was situational - costal city without decent amount of food + only few riverside tiles. And i was aiming for space - long term witch is allso importand, probably settling GM's wouldnt pay for it self only until Rifling but can be "justified" by long term plan.

For sure this isnt useless and/or horrible like you are sugesting.
In late game theres not too much what one can do without cottages and/or decent size, in case of teching.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@ yyeah :

Imho, the Great Merchant is the best Great Person one can settle, because food.
However, I would be very hesitant before hiring Merchant specialists, because yield.

All in all, I'll be happy when popping the occasional low-odds Great Merchant.

I agree that going all merchant specialists cannot be horrible,
However, the trouble with extra-high gold output is that it cannot pull you ahead of the AIs. It just can make you equal.

 

[yyeah]

@ yyeah :

Imho, the Great Merchant is the best Great Person one can settle, because food.
However, I would be very hesitant before hiring Merchant specialists, because yield.

All in all, I'll be happy when popping the occasional low-odds Great Merchant.

I agree that going all merchant specialists cannot be horrible,
However, the trouble with extra-high gold output is that it cannot pull you ahead of the AIs. It just can make you equal.

Yea later on hiring merchant specialist instand of scientist isnt good, i was more thinking here about, get them early like 1->5 if spot has low food for this one need wonders witch stimulate GM points like ToA or TGL but yea, like mentioned idk is it optimal.
But 1 thing i know for sure playing with once city wtich has only 1 +5 tile is like, idk its just extreamly low spot for me.

 

[obsolete]

If the game had infinite turns, then merchants would be boss... but it doesn't. Forfeiting things like Liberalism, etc... is too much to give away... And it is very important to be the FIRST to rifles..... not sitting and hoping to finally start to pay off around that time...