[BTS] Immortal Shadow Game - Shaka

[AlmightyBureaucrat]

Hi everyone,

Long time lurker here. I've recently gotten back into the game having played on and off for a long time. Been playing Immortal level but feel like my play is hit and miss particularly towards the midgame where the options start to open up more. I feel like my timings on when to start a war or tech are inconsistent and it's hard to assess whether I made the right choice to tech or attack.

Without further ado, I've created a game with some random settings:

Shaka (Aggressive, Expansive)
Immortal Difficulty
Fractal
Standard/Normal
NHNE

Here's the start:

Spoiler Start :

We start with Agriculture and Hunting, which makes for a quick AH, especially if we settle 1S on the flatland wine. Looks like we'd just be missing out on forests in the north. But I am thinking of moving the Scout 2S1E to see what else is further down the river that might justify settling 2S on the PH Wine for the +1 in addition to +1 .

Is it crazy to move away from the Cow? If we settle 1S and research AH first, we might not be able to chop away these forests for a while. We are quite a ways from BW since there's no commerce in sight other than the Wine tiles and our food is not on the river either.

 

[sampsa]

I couldn't resist 2S as an EXP civ. That's a T11 worker compared to T15 if settling 1S. Of course the cow is a strong tile, but then you also need to go AH.

 

[scheines]

Yeah, gimme that PH any day of the week. Losing the forests isn't too much of a big deal since you'll likely settle eventually toward the cow anyways.

Personally I'd take BW first before AH... especially if you settle on the wine. You can farm the wine, and by then you should be close to chopping.

Agreed on scout movement.

PS - newer Immortal player myself so allow others to override me

 

[Fippy]

Not crazy, actually a no-brainer
You get lots of fogged tiles which might add something good, while there are "only" forests N/NE so nothing new possible there (i think).

 

[lymond]

Double bonus wine hill...gimme!

 

[elitetroops]

Everyone seems to agree on PH wine, so do I. But why then move scout 2S1E? If you know where to settle based on current information, then the goal of first scouting move would be to reveal any potential information that could make you change your mind. Making a move to confirm what you already decided on is a waste.

Maybe scout towards south would reveal nothing but empty tundra, which might or might not affect settling decision, but I'd still move him 2N instead.

 

[sampsa]

I think I'd move the settler first 2S, to reveal more info on which way the equator is. Then move scout towards equator trying to meet someone before T5.

 

[Nick723]

I think I'd move the settler first 2S, to reveal more info on which way the equator is. Then move scout towards equator trying to meet someone before T5.

I suspect you already know this, but in case not, don’t the direction of the resource bubble arrows tell you whether you’re north or south of the equator?

 

[AlmightyBureaucrat]

Thanks for the tips. Didn't think the PH wine would be so unanimous.

Spoiler Settling :

I moved the settler 2S on everyone's suggestion, revealing riverside Rice! Good Bureau cap with 10 cottage-able river tiles so I'm definitely not moving back north now. Conifers north of the Rice makes me think we're in the northern hemisphere, so I move the scout SW on Sampsa's suggestion to try to find someone by T5. No need for AH now, so I'm thinking of going Mining > BW > Wheel > Pottery. Worker will improve the wet Rice before moving to the Corn, which is hopefully in time for chops.

Spoiler to T23 :

No luck finding anyone by T5, as it looks like we are on the southeast end of the continent. We do meet Brennus on T15 SW of our capitol so we are not isolated though.

It's T23 and BW is just in. To the north we have Silver and Copper to go along with our Cows, but that city is food poor and will pretty much only be able to work those 3 tiles without help from the Capitol's Corn. We don't have AH or the Wheel yet which would be needed to hook up the copper so I'm not sold on settling this next.

We have some decent land to the south, so I'm counting 6 cities or maybe 7 if the dry Wheat is worth anything. Given that we should be able to fogbust easily and we have aggressive warriors, I'm tempted to settle 1W of the Gold as the next city site and save the Copper for the 3rd spot. We can work the Gold at size 1 which will boost our research while we build an Expansive Worker and a Granary before borrowing the Rice for growth.

So from here my plan is:

• 4->2 whip a settler with the help of a chop, which should be out by T30
• Settle 1W of gold
• Tech path: Wheel > Pottery > AH
• 3rd City is the Copper for our metals
• 4th City is the Pig/Double Fish for the great food and to block off land

I don't think the Mids are worthwhile here as securing those 3 sites seem more important. Brennus does seem far away though and we haven't met anyone else so perhaps there is not a rush for those sites.

What do you guys think?

 

[Pangaea]

Hard to avoid the lure of the 2-2-2 city tile here, so I agree with everybody else. Think I'd move the scout SW and then maybe SE to reveal as much as we can. Unless he spots something grotesque, I'd still settle on the wine. You still get the (dry) corn, and the cow is nicely placed for a city north. The other wine can be farmed for a pretty good early-game tile, and of course later properly upgraded.

 

[Pangaea]

Tried to load the save, but BAT is required. No brief shadow then. I prefer the normal game graphics.

 

[AlmightyBureaucrat]

Tried to load the save, but BAT is required. No brief shadow then. I prefer the normal game graphics.

Edit: Here's the WB Save. Can BUG Mod be used or does that ruin the saves too?

 

[sampsa]

I suspect you already know this, but in case not, don’t the direction of the resource bubble arrows tell you whether you’re north or south of the equator?

I've read this, but it either doesn't work or I don't understand how it works.

 

[Pangaea]

Couldn't make sense of that either.

Edit: Here's the WB Save.

Thanks. Tried out the moves mentioned above.

Spoiler :

Apparently our flag is black and things look a bit odd, but it's probably due to the BAT origin. I just wanted to see the surroundings tbh, and shan't play. But I wish you luck. Should be an interesting game I reckon.

 

[Qactus]

I've read this, but it either doesn't work or I don't understand how it works.

Doesn't work for me either. Resource bubbles change direction from left to right depending on whether they are on the left or right side of the screen. They never seem to change their up/down direction though, regardless of their position on map or screen. Here are two example screenshots from north and south of the same game:

Spoiler south :

Spoiler north :

 

[5tephen]

I confess I've never tested it for proof of concept but I understand you can find tile co-ordinates from the tooltip whilst holding 'shift' or, once you've settled a city, from somewhere within the F1 screen.

I think each map script is a defined set of dimensions based on size. So if you know the dimensions of the map and the co-ordinates of a given tile, it should be possible to work out which hemisphere the tile is in.

Unfortunately most of the images for standard, fractal maps seem broken in old posts. I'm on a smartphone now so can't look on an XML file (even if I can work out how) but think the dimensions should be in the zip file on the first post of this guide? https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/sirians-map-info-reference.134226/

Probably a bit niche! Have seen it used recently in SGOTM which I won't link for obvious reasons.

Edit: Have now tested this and the F1 screen works (I use BUG mod so cannot confirm this works without.) The shift and tooltip/left-click appears to be misinformation - saw it mentioned a few places but looks like it only worked with some sort of cheat mode enabled https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/q-xy-coordinates-on-map.237197/

 

[Pangaea]

Actually, I fired up the game again and tried it out some more. 1200-ish BC.

Spoiler :

The location by settling on the wine is great. Wet rice pops up, so double food. I improved the rice first, since it gives the same food but also a commerce. Then went Mining-BW. A little scouting later and there's loads of cows and stuff nearby, so then went AH. A surprise in the capital. Holy smokes what a spot!

But we ran into quite some barb issues. Maybe my spawnbusting was poor, or more likely the region is simply too big to stay safe. First chariot did probably go a little too far (but did spot Brennus' borders in the margins), and when I tried to bring it back to deal with yet more barbs, it ended up next to a barb spearman. RIP.

Have settled 4 cities and chopped out the Mids. Stone city worked on Great Wall, and towards the end I actually tried to complete it. The land looked kinda big with ice up north, and I foresaw possible barb issues. Alas, with one turn left somebody else built it, and we got 140 failgold instead. Forgot to turn research back on immediately, but did Pottery-Writing, and am now working on Math. Had loads of barb issues these last few turns, the mentioned promotion-healed spearman (thankfully the chariot damaged it decently), another archer, and a team of warriors. Situation seems under control right now (finally some combat luck!!), so I did the Representation anarchy and saved the game.

Fun stuff so far, and some really nice spots nearby. Oddly the other AIs didn't have Writing yet when I got it, so could perhaps have gone straight for Alpha, but I like self-teching Math anyways, as it's hard to get in trade. Will perhaps do Math->Currency here and ignore Alpha for now. Have all that's needed anyway (except Fishing). Well, and Monarchy, but that is of lesser importance, especially when we have silver and gold nearby. Think I need to hook up that copper, though... Barbs have been too feisty.

Spoiler :

 

[Gumbolt]

Settling on wine seems great here.Shaka is always fun to play. Impi great for worker stealing. You need metal first!

 

[AlmightyBureaucrat]

Thanks for the tips. Didn't think the PH wine would be so unanimous.

Spoiler Settling :

I moved the settler 2S on everyone's suggestion, revealing riverside Rice! Good Bureau cap with 10 cottage-able river tiles so I'm definitely not moving back north now. Conifers north of the Rice makes me think we're in the northern hemisphere, so I move the scout SW on Sampsa's suggestion to try to find someone by T5. No need for AH now, so I'm thinking of going Mining > BW > Wheel > Pottery. Worker will improve the wet Rice before moving to the Corn, which is hopefully in time for chops.

Spoiler to T23 :

No luck finding anyone by T5, as it looks like we are on the southeast end of the continent. We do meet Brennus on T15 SW of our capitol so we are not isolated though.

It's T23 and BW is just in. To the north we have Silver and Copper to go along with our Cows, but that city is food poor and will pretty much only be able to work those 3 tiles without help from the Capitol's Corn. We don't have AH or the Wheel yet which would be needed to hook up the copper so I'm not sold on settling this next.

We have some decent land to the south, so I'm counting 6 cities or maybe 7 if the dry Wheat is worth anything. Given that we should be able to fogbust easily and we have aggressive warriors, I'm tempted to settle 1W of the Gold as the next city site and save the Copper for the 3rd spot. We can work the Gold at size 1 which will boost our research while we build an Expansive Worker and a Granary before borrowing the Rice for growth.

So from here my plan is:

• 4->2 whip a settler with the help of a chop, which should be out by T30
• Settle 1W of gold
• Tech path: Wheel > Pottery > AH
• 3rd City is the Copper for our metals
• 4th City is the Pig/Double Fish for the great food and to block off land

I don't think the Mids are worthwhile here as securing those 3 sites seem more important. Brennus does seem far away though and we haven't met anyone else so perhaps there is not a rush for those sites.

What do you guys think?

Well as there are no comments on my first turnset I went ahead with the next turnset to T71.

Spoiler to T71 :

I settled the second city 1W of the Gold on T31 as planned and immediately started on another Worker. Slight deviation on tech path - because the Gold would boost my research I went AH before Pottery as I figured there was no time for cottages/granaries, AH is needed for the 3rd city site, and might as well see if horses would change any plans for settling.

It turns out we have horses in the Capitol! With Chariots for barb defense, the copper is less critical, but I settle the 3rd city on T47 at the Cow/Copper/Silver site as planned anyway. The city will build a granary first and grow to size 3 ASAP to work the 3 power tiles.

The Chariot is out to mop up some barbs spawning in the tundra NW of Nobamba.

I decide to deviate from my original plan of settling the Pigs city next and settle the Stone on T57 instead. The Stone site is immediately productive as it is sitting on a 3 city tile and can work the Cow for a 12-turn Settler or 6-turn Worker. That allows my Capitol to focus on growing while producing military. I will also try building the Pyramids in Nobamba as it will have 24 production (with bonus) at size 3, and 5 forests can be chopped into it for a 13~15 turn Pyramids.

We meet Hammy's Galley near our 5th city on T70. It's now T71 and the Pyramids are in. The Capitol finished a library a couple turns ago and is running 2 Scientists. I am planning to swap into Rep this turn. We have 5 cities with a 6th on the way (Clams/Cow).

State of the Empire:

My initial thought is to settle the Wheat city for Wheat/Horse, but is it worth settling another city on the Fish/Horse? We have a good Happy Cap with Gold/Silver as well as Rep so the Pigs/Double Fish city should be able to run 6 scientists at size 9 for a good GP city. But I suppose splitting the food would allow for better production long-term. What do you guys think?

Alphabet is in, here is the tech situation:

Is it worth trading for anything, or will is it not worth WFYABTA? Hammy has only 3 cities and we met him via a Galley so he might be stuck on a small continent. He does know Brennus and is Worst Enemy though .

Tech Path this turnset: Wheel > AH > Pottery > Writing > Masonry > Alphabet

Where would you go from here? My initial thought is:

• Go peaceful (long distance to Brennus, good land)
• Settle Cow/Clam
• Settle Wheat/Horse (Is this city worth it before Irrigation?)
• Tech Path: Currency > COL > CS for Bureaucracy
• 1st Great Scientist on an Academy, second on a Philo bulb
• Scout the continent and re-evaluate
• Skip Monarchy as we have Rep (despite having Wine?)
• Settle the Ice Marble and go for Great Library? (It's all Ice but there's a second ring Fish to be had)

How would you develop the Gold city? Cottages on the river or Farms for Growth/Production?

What are your guys' thoughts?

 

[Pangaea]

Looks like a very strong start so far. Quite similar to the shadow I did, coincidentally up to turn 71 as well. Looks like you got less barb issues, though, and have expanded to 5 cities compared to my 4.

Think the fish-horse city makes more sense than the pig city having 3 sources of food. Would make for a great NE city of course, but you have pretty nice land here, so it makes sense to fill it with cities, and then they need food. That would also allow the wheat city to be coastal, either 1S or 1E of wheat. Those cities would grab all the nice green tiles around. You may also want to get out an explore boat or two.

It may be too late now of course, but it's possible this could be a nice map for the Great Lighthouse, so you may want to try for that as well.

Eventually you want Monarchy for those wines, but Rep is far superior, so you're not going to be running HR here, which means you can trade for it later (AIs always favour it). I'm no longer that big on the Philo bulb, but especially if you're planning for a long game, an Academy in the capital would make sense here I think. It's a nice spot for cottages. Get up a helper city on the west side too, near the cow, and you have cities in all directions that can help grow cottages for the capital, for a very powerful Buro city a little down the line.

By the time you get to Civil Service, you have probably traded for Monarchy already, and Calendar, which gets you several more happy resources. +3 from Rep, and your capital can grow pretty big already before resource trades. And only from your near-area, you have double up of incense and wine, plus food of course, so you should be able to trade for plenty more.

Given there are apparently no neighbours very close, I'd say this is a good map for expanding more peacefully, growing the economy, and then dealing with the continent later. Maybe with trebs, or yet later with Cuirs. You can trade Writing for Fishing+Mysticism if you want (if that is possible, I don't recall), and soon enough you should be able to get IW in trade (for Math or Alpha), plus maybe one of the religious techs, like Poly and then Mono. Once you have Currency, you can sell this cheap crap to other AIs you hopefully meet for gold, powering your research further.

Edit: Ah yes, the size 1 worker comment. First thing on my mind too, but then I forgot as I wrote other stuff. Very good point BiC. It's better to build a warrior or granary (if available) than a worker. It takes too long without growth in a brand new city. Better to chop/whip it somewhere else.

Also, if this continent really has only two AIs and one religion, you will probably get friendly with at least one of them, which will allow trades forever, despite normal "We fear.." limitations. That said, it's a good idea in general to not necessarily trade for cheap crap (especially archery). Fishing and Industrialism both count for one tech, and I'd rather be able to trade for something really good than cheap stuff you can 1-turn yourself. As always, it depends though.