[BTS] Immortal Shadow Game - Shaka

[AlmightyBureaucrat]

Thanks for the tips guys.

^ First pic in your spoiler :
a) I like the placement of your 2nd city
b) Proper way to do it is not to start a worker at size 1 : take the rice from the capital, grow to size 2 while improving the gold.
Meanwhile, Ulundi still can do 4 hammers into its EXP worker. At size 2 uMgu can start on a worker (or even 2, or 3, and then it will get a grassland farm, its granary and slowly get on its way).
c) The reason for this can be seen in your last screenshot, where uMgu is still size 1 and now needs to NOT work the gold in order to grow.

As a rule of thumb, when 2 cities share a food resource and one of them is stagnating (building worker/settler), then the city that is not stagnating should work the food.

If I'm readying you correctly, the logic here that the best time to grow is when the opportunity cost of growth is lowest (i.e. the gold is not yet improved so we are not missing out on a great tile yet), which is particularly true in the case of gold (which is 0 food). At least once you get to size 2 you can still grow while working the gold, (even if it is a slow grassland farm) whereas at size 1 this is impossible. Furthermore, your rule of thumb is based on the idea that 1 > 1 , so growth is a better use of the food than converting to hammers at 1:1 while stagnating on a settler/worker. Does that sound right?

Looks like a very strong start so far. Quite similar to the shadow I did, coincidentally up to turn 71 as well. Looks like you got less barb issues, though, and have expanded to 5 cities compared to my 4.

Think the fish-horse city makes more sense than the pig city having 3 sources of food. Would make for a great NE city of course, but you have pretty nice land here, so it makes sense to fill it with cities, and then they need food. That would also allow the wheat city to be coastal, either 1S or 1E of wheat. Those cities would grab all the nice green tiles around. You may also want to get out an explore boat or two.

It may be too late now of course, but it's possible this could be a nice map for the Great Lighthouse, so you may want to try for that as well.

Eventually you want Monarchy for those wines, but Rep is far superior, so you're not going to be running HR here, which means you can trade for it later (AIs always favour it). I'm no longer that big on the Philo bulb, but especially if you're planning for a long game, an Academy in the capital would make sense here I think. It's a nice spot for cottages. Get up a helper city on the west side too, near the cow, and you have cities in all directions that can help grow cottages for the capital, for a very powerful Buro city a little down the line.

By the time you get to Civil Service, you have probably traded for Monarchy already, and Calendar, which gets you several more happy resources. +3 from Rep, and your capital can grow pretty big already before resource trades. And only from your near-area, you have double up of incense and wine, plus food of course, so you should be able to trade for plenty more.

Given there are apparently no neighbours very close, I'd say this is a good map for expanding more peacefully, growing the economy, and then dealing with the continent later. Maybe with trebs, or yet later with Cuirs. You can trade Writing for Fishing+Mysticism if you want (if that is possible, I don't recall), and soon enough you should be able to get IW in trade (for Math or Alpha), plus maybe one of the religious techs, like Poly and then Mono. Once you have Currency, you can sell this cheap crap to other AIs you hopefully meet for gold, powering your research further.

Edit: Ah yes, the size 1 worker comment. First thing on my mind too, but then I forgot as I wrote other stuff. Very good point BiC. It's better to build a warrior or granary (if available) than a worker. It takes too long without growth in a brand new city. Better to chop/whip it somewhere else.

Also, if this continent really has only two AIs and one religion, you will probably get friendly with at least one of them, which will allow trades forever, despite normal "We fear.." limitations. That said, it's a good idea in general to not necessarily trade for cheap crap (especially archery). Fishing and Industrialism both count for one tech, and I'd rather be able to trade for something really good than cheap stuff you can 1-turn yourself. As always, it depends though.

In general, my default play for a second city is to build a worker first rather than grow, given that I typically only have 1 worker at this point and growing (instead of building a worker) would mean that growth is onto unimproved tiles. I am typically improving the food while building this worker which will get it out faster, and then the worker that pops out can improve the city's next best tile while it grows to size 2. I understand the gold is a unique case here per the comment from BIC so growth first in this case is correct, but is my logic on a size 1 worker in general unsound? I'm essentially following the same logic as going worker first at my Capitol.

In this game, I know I built double worker in both cities, which stagnated growth in both of them. Is it too quick at this point to be going for the 3rd worker, or what factors would go into how you determine timing? Again I figured that I would be growing onto unimproved tiles (which would not speed up worker production) so it is better to build it now even though it means I am stuck on size 2 for a few more turns.

Spoiler Helper City :

I did not consider the Cow helper city West of the Capitol, but that does seem decent (stealing Cows from Brennus and claiming incense).

Actually, I fired up the game again and tried it out some more. 1200-ish BC.

Spoiler :

The location by settling on the wine is great. Wet rice pops up, so double food. I improved the rice first, since it gives the same food but also a commerce. Then went Mining-BW. A little scouting later and there's loads of cows and stuff nearby, so then went AH. A surprise in the capital. Holy smokes what a spot!

But we ran into quite some barb issues. Maybe my spawnbusting was poor, or more likely the region is simply too big to stay safe. First chariot did probably go a little too far (but did spot Brennus' borders in the margins), and when I tried to bring it back to deal with yet more barbs, it ended up next to a barb spearman. RIP.

Have settled 4 cities and chopped out the Mids. Stone city worked on Great Wall, and towards the end I actually tried to complete it. The land looked kinda big with ice up north, and I foresaw possible barb issues. Alas, with one turn left somebody else built it, and we got 140 failgold instead. Forgot to turn research back on immediately, but did Pottery-Writing, and am now working on Math. Had loads of barb issues these last few turns, the mentioned promotion-healed spearman (thankfully the chariot damaged it decently), another archer, and a team of warriors. Situation seems under control right now (finally some combat luck!!), so I did the Representation anarchy and saved the game.

Fun stuff so far, and some really nice spots nearby. Oddly the other AIs didn't have Writing yet when I got it, so could perhaps have gone straight for Alpha, but I like self-teching Math anyways, as it's hard to get in trade. Will perhaps do Math->Currency here and ignore Alpha for now. Have all that's needed anyway (except Fishing). Well, and Monarchy, but that is of lesser importance, especially when we have silver and gold nearby. Think I need to hook up that copper, though... Barbs have been too feisty.

Spoiler :

View attachment 566869

View attachment 566870

Spoiler Comments on turnset :

Same turn Pyramids, nice!

Interesting on the barbs. I had no troubles from the south (got all the spawnbusting in time before any archers or warriors showed up). Had some archer/warrior pairs in the north as there's Tundra but was able to secure the area with double chariot and avoid any serious threats to my cities.

Your cities look more developed than mine in terms of growth. Do you think I am over-prioritizing horizontal expansion vs vertical growth? For example instead of going for the settler at size 1 at my stone city, I suppose I could have grown on the cow in order to be working more cottages for the Capitol. I do realize that I have a population/improvement imbalance in my capitol (can't work the scientists and all the cottages) so I guess you could attribute this to neglecting pop growth.

I like your gold city placement, I suppose saving this for the 4th city allowed you to grab the wheat in the first ring while also getting the gold with the Capitol 3rd ring border pop.

Do you have any opinion as to whether to build Farms or Cottages at my gold city? It's great riverside land but this city doesn't have its own food. My current thoughts are:

1. If I go farms, that will allow me to grow bigger (but onto what?) and have more production (whips). But is a city without food even worth whipping, especially when there is a gold (-2) to work?
2. Because of the logic in #1, if the city is not worth whipping without food, then perhaps I build a couple farms for growth, but then convert these to cottages at size 7 and keep this as a 7-pop commerce focused city working 6 cottages (after handing back cottages to the capitol) and the gold.

I generally struggle to balance production with commerce. Farms seem to give more flexibility at the cost of some cottage commerce. Perhaps having such a strong bureaucracy capitol means I can focus the Gold city on production though?

 

[Pangaea]

Believe the Mids in my shadow actually came about 2 turns earlier, but due to a barb invasion I couldn't risk switching immediately. From what I recall, the problems weren't in the south, but the west. Two barb spearmen came from that direction, plus a large number of warriors. Probably could have done a better job spawnbusting, but then again, spearmen is a tough beast to tackle so early, at least without axes. Sometimes you are simply unlucky, so maybe that is part of the explanation. Could have hooked up the copper sooner too, but hindsight and all that I wanted to build some more cheap warriors.

Gold city: It depends what you do with the rice tile really. But longterm the capital probably wants that, and you want the gold city to grow a bit, so it can actually work the gold. So I'd farm a few tiles. Probably best to let it grow on the rice first, so it gets up a few sizes, then later the rice can be taken back to the capital, while gold city grows slower from farms and gold and onto more cottages.

Building workers and settlers at size 1 is not something you really want to do. First of all it's very slow, even if that one tile is improved, and it means the city can't grow for a long time. It's better to slow-build them in bigger cities (typical your capital), or better yet, to chop or whip them. Then they get out faster, and you can regrow cities on buildings or normal units. This different priority is probably why my cities are more developed, despite the barb problems.

 

[Pangaea]

Didn't notice this earlier, but there is a fish further south of your land, which cannot be worked from 'your' side. This means there is a continent or at least an island down there. Good idea to get a city where you planned, and once it expands borders, you can probably send a workboat further south (they can travel on ocean tiles in your own culture). Maybe there are more AIs down there?

 

[sampsa]

is my logic on a size 1 worker in general unsound?

In general, yes. It's not the same situation as on T0. On T0, you need to find the least bad way to get out the worker. Often it is building it immediately (minimizes the amount of time working weak tiles, gets the worker out asap). Stealing beats this by a mile of course, but it's hard to rely on that. In 2nd city, you already have a worker and in your situation, access to whipping and chopping, which change a lot. With EXP, both whipping and chopping a worker go up in value. Improve food, put in a chop into a worker, whip at 2 beats slow building by quite a bit. This is not taking the gold into account though. To maximize , steal the rice from capital to grow to 2, improve gold, then either keep growing slowly or stagnate at size 2. This is also what BiC was suggesting. You need to not only minimize the amount of turns working unimproved tiles, but also minimize the time you are stagnating (i.e. transforming 1->1). Thus, you should be chopping aggressively into settlers/workers with so much forest available (and so many good city spots available!).

Is it too quick at this point to be going for the 3rd worker, or what factors would go into how you determine timing?

Most important factor is the worker turns you need. With this much forest and EXP, I think 3 workers is a decent idea. Keep chopping non-stop with at least two though, I think it's much more important than for example road to 3rd city (which gains only 1).

Do you have any opinion as to whether to build Farms or Cottages at my gold city?

With rice+gold (that you should be working non-stop), it's only +3 in that city. I'd certainly build at least one farm.

General comments on T71: I think you have way too many forests left (you could've chopped into settlers, workers, Mids). Now with rep, I'd be growing my capital to full power and not stagnate on scientists. Overall, your position is great, but that's mostly due to an easy start.

 

[AlmightyBureaucrat]

Spoiler To T103 :

On T71, I revolted to Rep. Following everyone's advice, I focused on growth in the Capitol, delaying the plan to get out a GS until after reaching happy cap at size 10 before letting Nobamba and uMgun borrow the food to grow.

On T79, I founded the Cow helper city to the west. Due to needing to place it right next to the cow (to not lose it to Brennus), the city will only be able to work 1 cottage for the Capitol, but claims the Incense and can work a few farms once Civil Service is in.

Spoiler Cow Helper City :

T87: Clam/Cow site is settled. (Remaining forests in the Capitol were chopped into a Settler there).

Spoiler Cow/Clam City :

Turns out we didn't need a workboat to scout that Fish. Hammy is on the continent to our south, but...

Spoiler Hammy :

There's two orphaned Fish!!

On T94 Brennus founds Confucianism in Vermilion right next to my Cow city! Hopefully it does not become a cultural problem.

On T95, the Great Lighthouse is finished in Nobamba, and we settle the Fish/Horse city in the South. Wonders seem to be going quite slowly in this game. Oracle was not built until 800 BC . With the Great Lighthouse complete, I spend a turn of anarchy to swap to Buddhism and hopefully make friends with Brennus. He and Hammy are worst enemies. Brennus has almost 2x Hammy's score and is probably the safer bet for an ally. Coincidentally, on T97 Brennus demands Maths. I give in as I've already traded this to Hammy for Iron Working and don't see anything worth trading it for. This gets him to Pleased so I am feeling pretty good about security on my western border.

First great scientist pops out on T100 and is used for an Academy in the Capitol. It's later than I hoped but growth was the priority.

Spoiler :

A few turns later Hammy converts to Christianity! He demands we cancel deals with Brennus .
Wheat city is founded on T103. That's going to be the last city I settle, unless there's a case to be made for the Fish/Marble up north in the ice? (Great Library probably won't go for ages at this pace).

Spoiler Wheat City :

I end the turnset on T105 with Civil Service completed.

State of the Empire:

Tech Path: was Maths > Currency > CoL > Civil Service. Writing was traded to Hammy for Mysticism/Fishing. Writing traded to Brennus for part of Sailing. Math traded to Hammurabi for Iron Working. No good tech trades at the moment, Brennus has Construction but won't trade it away. We have a monopoly on Alphabet, Currency, and Civil Service. Brenus has CoL.

From here I am not sure what to go next. It seems that there is nothing pressing, and no pressure for immediate war (though Brennus is getting quite big). I think it's this middle phase of the game where expansion is done where I lose a sense of direction on what to do next.

• Monarchy seems unnecessary given ample happiness
• Literature for the Great Library? I could settle the Marble/Fish site (see below) for that.
• Paper > Education > Philo > Liberalism right away?
• Optics to meet the other civs?

Resource Trades: we are trading away our Stone to Brennus in exchange for some Furs and 3GPT. Hammy has Elephants but he won't trade that to us.

Religion Situation: Brennus has founded 3 religions (Buddhism, Confucianism, and Christianity)!!! Brennus is Buddhist like us, while Hammy is Christian. They both hate each other.

Civics: I will revolt to Bureaucracy for sure, but is it worth swapping from Slavery to CS? Fish/Pig city can run 5 scientists at size 7. Fish/Horse city can also run 3 scientists at size 5. I don't think I'd be running scientists anywhere else. The remaining cities probably doesn't need slavery to build the granary infrastructure given chops and the expansive trait.

I probably need a few more workers. I've gotten by with 5 workers and whipping for infrastructure but might need a few more to improve my land as I am working a few unimproved tiles here and there.

Where would you guys go from here? Is this a tech Lib > MT type of situation?

Spoiler Brennus' Land :

A lot of land, some of it good. Brennus and Hammy both have Elephants.

Spoiler Hammy's Land :

Poor Hammy seems to have very limited land and was boxed in by the jungle.

Spoiler 10th City? :

I could settle the Cow/Clam/Desert city between the barbarian Gold city and Hammy. Is it worth it though?

The 2nd ring Fish + Marble site in the Ice in the north is still available. Is it worth settling, or too slow? If I decide to do a double swap to Caste System/Bureaucracy, we could reach the Fish in a reasonable amount of time.

 

[AlmightyBureaucrat]

Food for thought (t50) :

Spoiler :

Food sharing. Same logic. Different spot. uMgu does 8h at size 2, so 10 towards a worker with the EXP bonus.

Two workers and a granary later (production from uMgu) :

^ Probably should have stacked both workers and have that settler on 1 turn. Then can start cottaging.

Nobamba, swiftly improved. Hard to resist that spot :

^ Having access to the silver changes things. Gold has been delayed and will be claimed with a border pop from Ulundi.
The "c" spot (city 4) will access the gold but also have its own food source and also auto-connect the trade network.


Eyeing the Silver spot : tech path AH, Wheel, Bronze, Fish, Pottery.

ps : Ulundi is size 4 because I lost the scout and a warrior, which I had to replace.
Ideally, it would end this phase of inital expansion at size 3 and complete its granary while growing to 4 (then it could whip 5->3 or 6->4 or whatever). Now it's delayed by 1 size and the granary will be done while growing to 5.

Hmm your cities seem better placed than mine long term.

Spoiler :

I like your choice for uMgu, it is probably better long-term because of the extra hammer from the PH, access to a Grass Hill, and can share another cottage with the Capitol. I suppose I would have also chosen that spot if I had not known about the Copper...but perhaps it is better even if you do know it's there.

Interesting placement for Nobamba. Looks like it might be stronger long-term than my placement with the extra riverside tiles and the Horse, but I suppose you will claim the other Fish/Clam in the 2nd ring with another city later?

Your placement for the Gold city also seems nicer long-term having its own food. Based on your city placements, it looks like you could fill out your part of the continent with 8 cities compared to my 9 and be able to grow them bigger. Should this be in my consideration? Because of my mistakes with growth, my Gold city ended up not doing much cottage sharing with the Capitol. Gold/Silver + Rep means that the Capitol was largely able to work the cottage tiles itself, and the lack of having its own food means that my Gold city was slow to grow up and didn't have as much time to work Capitol cottages. Was my mistake in growth strategy (not working Rice first), or is the placement also poor?

What influenced your decision to settle the Cow/Silver city first as opposed to the Gold? Is that based on the idea that > early game? Looks like you will get your 4th city out sooner than mine (perhaps also based on chopping) with perhaps stronger long-term potential. Curious to see how your game unfolds over the next 50 turns.

 

[sampsa]

Wp so far. I wouldn't found marble city without being CRE or access to caste. I don't think you do much with GLib if going cuirs, but music artist would be nice to get. I'd go there via drama, unless you have poly. I think you are so far ahead soon you need to self research everything.

 

[AlmightyBureaucrat]

Wp so far. I wouldn't found marble city without being CRE or access to caste. I don't think you do much with GLib if going cuirs, but music artist would be nice to get. I'd go there via drama, unless you have poly. I think you are so far ahead soon you need to self research everything.

Hmm, when would be an appropriate reason going GLib then, is that typically for longer games not involving cuirs?

Game is telling me it is cheaper to go through Poly > Literature rather than Drama. If no Polytheism, are you recommending going the Drama path because it speeds up Philosophy?

 

[sampsa]

Easily accessible marble would be a reason to go GLib, though I don't think it's a hugely important wonder. Doesn't speed up cuirs date really and after that it doesn't matter much.

If not going for GLib, I somewhat prefer the drama route for better trade value, but no big deal.

 

[Tobiyogi]

^ First pic in your spoiler :
a) I like the placement of your 2nd city
b) Proper way to do it is not to start a worker at size 1 : take the rice from the capital, grow to size 2 while improving the gold.
Meanwhile, Ulundi still can do 4 hammers into its EXP worker. At size 2 uMgu can start on a worker (or even 2, or 3, and then it will get a grassland farm, its granary and slowly get on its way).
c) The reason for this can be seen in your last screenshot, where uMgu is still size 1 and now needs to NOT work the gold in order to grow.

As a rule of thumb, when 2 cities share a food resource and one of them is stagnating (building worker/settler), then the city that is not stagnating should work the food.

Even if the second (or third city) has NO gold, I would only exceptionnaly start on a worker at size 1. I lost that habit completely. I have somewhere read about food/hammer-conversion and it made sense to me. Growing to size 2 costs only 22, while whipping a worker at size 2 is worth 30. That's not only a production gain, but sometimes even fast than stagnating on a worker. If there is gold, I would probably not whip the worker, depends on the specific situation, judging by if techs or production are more important.

 

[Pangaea]

Re: whipping and worker at size 1:
Actually had an interesting scenario of this in a game I'm currently battling with. Happened to get BW from a hut on turn 1. Probably the first time ever So then I had a decision. Do I slowbuild the initial worker, or do I go into slavery, grow to size 2, then whip it. Did some math in my head, and concluded he would actually come out at the exact same time, turn 23 on Epic speed, but it was still worth it. Because while growing to size 2 half a warrior would be built. And ofc, I'd already be in Slavery, and the 'wasted'/anarchy turn happened when the entire empire was size 1 with 0 improved tiles, so you lose the least. Think it's relevant here as well. It simply isn't efficient to build a worker at size 1, and even more so later in the game when you have more options than on turn 0.

As an aside, as awesome as it was to get BW from a hut right off the bat, I was surprised how little it mattered compared with other events that can go well or bad in the starting part of a game. It's behind this game that got ruined due to my own mistakes It's been an eye-opener for me, because I used to look at getting good stuff from huts early on as overly awesome. But compare that with not being able to workersteal (okay, I got one) nor rush early on, neighbours being awkwardly placed and some wonders ending up quite far away (I'm looking at you MoM), and it seems clear to me now that these things are more important than being super-lucky with huts in the very early turns.

Nevertheless, it also shows why it's recommended to turn off huts and events in these games They can impact things in a major way, like getting a slavery revolt in your capital for 3 turns, or getting a free golden age.

 

[AlmightyBureaucrat]

So I'm more ahead than I thought I'd be...

Spoiler to T173 :

Swapped to Bureaucracy/Caste System to take advantage of Rep. Fish/Pig city will grow to run 5 scientists, and our Silver/Copper Wonder city will grow on the Corn now that the Capitol is at full size.
T115: Music is in via Aesthetics > Drama. I also grabbed Priesthood and traded for Monarchy to Hammy. We are making 340 at a 100% slider with a 31 gold deficit. Next techs are Philosophy > Paper > Education > Liberalism.

On T129 (350 AD) our GS is in, and bulbs Education. Education is finished the next turn, followed by Nationalism the next (it was being researched while waiting for the Education bulb). I am able to trade for Construction & Calendar with our backwards trading partners. I detour to Metal Casting so I can slowly start building Forges before the Cuirs. We have Silver and Gold and the two extra will be useful. I net 400 failgold from the Shwedagon Paya, so it looks like it's smooth sailing to Cuirs without needing to build wealth.

T137 (540 AD) Lib grabs Military Tradition. A Great Engineer pops in our Wonder City on T139 so I rush the Taj Mahal for a golden age. I swap back into Slavery and Free Religion (temporarily) to start whipping out Forges/Cuirs. Gunpowder is in on T140. I trade Civil Service to Hammy for HBR/Polytheism and 150 gold just to speed things up a turn (Brennus has CS already). Next stop is Theocracy (which I will switch into before the end of the Golden Age.

On T149 (780 AD), Brennus declares on Hammy. I was going to go after Hammy first but don't want to deal with Brennus capitulating him. I also figure that Brennus is stronger so slowing him down would make me the dominant player on this continent. He also has his army busy in the south with Hammy so it is a perfect time to backstab him. Brennus has the Fish/Marble city in the Ice up north, but otherwise we have quite a short border with the Confucian holy city. It should be easy to attack through there, then head west for the Capitol before mopping up.

On T154 Brennus captures one of Hammy's cities in the Jungle, so it's safe to say his main stack is in the South and nowhere near the defense of the homeland. A scout confirms there's minimal garrisons in the East.

On T157 I declare on Brennus with 28 Cuirs. Verlamion falls immediately, and Durnovaria on the following turn.

Spoiler Time for War! :

On T160 Brennus shows up on flat land outside of Durnovaria with what I suppose is his secondary stack. It's pretty obsolete and is easy pickings for Cuirs. We mop up with no casualties. Camulodunum falls on the same turn, which is critical because this puts my population over Brennus's for the AP vote, which is next turn. Camulodunum houses the AP too so that's a bonus. I am able to win the AP vote and avoid any "Stop the War" shenanigans.

Spoiler Brennus' Wimpy Stack :

Bibracte is poorly defended and falls on T164. The city has some nice prizes: the Parthenon, Notre Dame (we were getting a bit unhappy there) and Chicken Pizza.

Spoiler Undefended Capitol :

Vienne falls on the following turn T165. It looks like the main research city and houses an Academy, along with some juicy floodplains cottages. Brennus is willing to capitulate on the following turn, and his score has fallen below Hammy (who is still at war with him). While I now hold the core cities, I figure that I should finish him off given that this is a two continent game, which will go on longer and I could use the extra land. I now hold all the interior cities, but I have the Great Lighthouse so I figure that all these coastal cities can be productive even if they are in the ice/tundra. Eliminating Brennus will also remove the Motherland unhappiness/revolt penalty. Is this a reasonable strategy or should the goal be to capitulate as fast as possible?

It is now T173 (1130 AD) and Brennus is dead. I am now at 21 cities and dwarf Hammy's seven. Also met Hatshepsut this turn, who is on 8 cities and despite having a higher score than Hammy, is backwards and doesn't even have Feudalism or Civil Service. Looks like this will be a cakewalk unless one of the remaining 3 civs have gotten huge.

Spoiler State of the Empire :

I am curious to see what the science will look like when everything is out of revolt. Our economy is almost crashed now but I think it will pick up once Brennus's core cities come online. Despite that, we are still the tech leader so far as I can see.

Spoiler Tech Situation :

I currently own half the built Wonders in the game, and Hammy/Hatty have another third, which leaves only 4 wonders built by the unknown AIs. So it looks like there is no runaway unmet civ, we are the runaway civ!

Spoiler Wonders :

The plan from here:

Consolidate army on the Southern border and steamroll Hammy. We will need a few galleys to take his island city. After that, Astronomy > Rifling and it's off to the other continent.

What's the general strategy after finishing off your own continent? I haven't been this ahead on a continents type map and feel like I typically stall out on the recovery from war. Usually it takes more turns for me to finish the war, which means that I am staying on 0% research for longer and am getting passed by on tech. I did not expect the tech situation to be this good, so it doesn't look like that will happen here, but what's the typical way to catch back up in tech?

 

[sampsa]

Looking good.

Comments:

Spoiler :

I detour to Metal Casting so I can slowly start building Forges before the Cuirs.

I think this is a pretty big mistake. When going for something, the most important thing is to do it as fast as possible. Forges are not cheap and you certainly don't need them. 120 investment for 7,5 better whips per pop... that's a lot of pop. I would skip forges in most, if not all cities even if I happened to have MC.

A Great Engineer pops in our Wonder City on T139 so I rush the Taj Mahal for a golden age. I swap back into Slavery and Free Religion (temporarily) to start whipping out Forges/Cuirs.

In general, you should use golden ages for . I'd try to get out several GMs for HA->cuir upgrade. Of course, this could've been started earlier (start slow building HAs asap).

Next stop is Theocracy (which I will switch into before the end of the Golden Age.

I think theocracy is also a luxury, you don't need it. So are stables. A bunch of 3xp cuirs are unstoppable in your situation (facing longbows). Just try to get the attack going asap.

Just realized you didn't mention police state. -situation didn't allow it? Accepting some unhappiness is an option as you'll be whipping your cities down soon anyway.

T137 (540 AD) Lib grabs Military Tradition.

On T157 I declare on Brennus with 28 Cuirs.

20T between acquiring the war tech and attacking is way too long. With GMs and upgrades it could be 1T.

edit: OK, you got gunpowder T140, so I think with better management you'd attack T141-145.

 

[AlmightyBureaucrat]

Looking good.

Comments:

Spoiler :

I think this is a pretty big mistake. When going for something, the most important thing is to do it as fast as possible. Forges are not cheap and you certainly don't need them. 120 investment for 7,5 better whips per pop... that's a lot of pop. I would skip forges in most, if not all cities even if I happened to have MC.


In general, you should use golden ages for . I'd try to get out several GMs for HA->cuir upgrade. Of course, this could've been started earlier (start slow building HAs asap).


I think theocracy is also a luxury, you don't need it. So are stables. A bunch of 3xp cuirs are unstoppable in your situation (facing longbows). Just try to get the attack going asap.

Just realized you didn't mention police state. -situation didn't allow it? Accepting some unhappiness is an option as you'll be whipping your cities down soon anyway.



20T between acquiring the war tech and attacking is way too long. With GMs and upgrades it could be 1T.

edit: OK, you got gunpowder T140, so I think with better management you'd attack T141-145.

Noted re Forges. My thinking was that the forge is 120 and a Cuirassier is 100 . If you build the forge, the Cuirassier effectively becomes 80 (80 * 1.25 = 100) for a 20 discount, so the forge pays itself back in 6 Cuirassiers. I guess I overestimated how many Cuirs would be built from each city. Looking back to the time where my attack starts, it looks like only the Forge in Nobamba (Silver/Cow city) has paid itself back, with some of the other heavier whip cities being 2/3 of the way to payback. Across the whole empire the Forges don't themselves back until T173 though I presume that in some cities they did pay back nicely, while in others they still have not paid back. I guess the lesson for the future is to not detour for Forges and be more selective in building them in only high production cities. I suppose I overweighed the benefit of +2 happy given this production shortfall. Overall, detour for Metal Casting delayed MT by 2 turns, and probably delayed the critical mass of Cuirs by another couple turns given the opportunity cost of the forges.

I did not think of GMs for the upgrade. I suppose I could have squeezed out a GM or two out of the Taj Mahal golden age by starving my cities. If pursuing this strategy, when would you start building up HAs? Too early means you're not building wealth and speeding up the MT date, but too late means you have too much production and delay getting the tech. I guess it's a delicate balance to make sure that your tech date and production line up otherwise you reach the tech early but don't have the production until late (like in my case), or you have the production but delay getting the tech in time because of not building wealth and paying extra maintenance for the units.

Re Theocracy/Stables, I only went Theocracy after securing MT/Gunpowder so Theocracy didn't delay my attack date. I switched techs during a golden age so no anarchy penalty there either. For Stables, I did consciously decide not to build these except in Nobamba, which is my highest production city that has produced 6 cuirs by the attack date.

I considered switching to Police State but that would have given me 3 unhappiness in the Capitol and 2 in Nobamba (major production center). The rest of my cities would also have been left with only 1-2 spare happiness each, which I figured would turn into unhappiness pretty soon with whip anger + regrowth and later war weariness anger. So I did not make the switch. How would you evaluate how much unhappiness can be tolerated? Furthermore, how much would you whip down your cities? Would you be whipping down your Bureaucracy Capitol even if it is your main commerce center? I ended up not whipping the Capitol and producing a University there instead of units which I guess is wrong if focusing on speeding up the attack date. When would you selectively transition the Capitol back to building infrastructure from units?

Answer :

Spoiler :

I think the placement for your gold city is good for a second city. But there happens to be a better spot for that 2nd (silver is only one less commerce than gold and that associated cow is a very strong tile). For a 4th city, the stronger long term location should be favoured. Sharing some food from the capital is acceptable but not a very good long term plan ; so planting cities that have their own food source should be favoured, if given the choice.
Other than that, I do indeed think that > : commerce:, at least as far as the 2nd city is concerned. Settling productive cities allows you to snowball efficiently (and not be stuck with the production of the capital), provided you do not crash your economy (when you think some caution is in order, simply build more workers over settlers ; delaying the settling will give enough time to reach the techs you need).
Put otherwise : size 2 : your gold city produces 6h/turn towards a worker ; the silver/gold spot does 11h/turn. Almost twice the output.
Once it's settled, your gold city should definitely work : farms as its own tiles ; cottages as shared tiles with the capital. Close by helpers are how Bureaucracy Capitals get their power (see below : infra is whipped)

Regarding your other question : sharing and short/long term locations.
The way I look at it, keywords are : infrastructure, happy cap, military production. And then how much land there is and how good it is.
Infrastructure : If I want to dump all the possible infrastructure into a city, I want to make sure the spot is as good as possible. Nobamba fits that bill.
While the happy cap is low and while the infra hasn't yet been whipped, that city will welcome some helpers. Helpers won't need the same infrastructure but will help work the tiles.
When the happy cap rises to 10 and 15 and more : I value those S-Class spots a lot more than many on the forum. The accepted consensus is that if you can break-out with Cuirassiers and have a decent window, you can complete the game without ever researching Printing Press. What those cities do is they allow to sustain research while warring.

The more land there is, the more maintenance costs, potentially. Large amounts of land are also an incentive to settle great long-term spots rather than split 3 food sources between 3 cities. You can always backfill later, when the cost is acceptable, with helper cities. In this scenario, settling 8+ cities, you're likely playing peaceful until after the Liberalism race (or using Macemen at the earliest).
If there is less land, then there is an incentive to pack cities more to break out sooner : more cities, more happy cap (not from new resources but global happy cap), more whippage. This is true for, say, a Classical Era or Medieval break out.

This is all very relative and map dependent and difficult to formulate.
From another angle : there's a timeline ranging from settling your cities to waging war. When and how you go to war and how is a plan that can be formulated very early and depends heavily on the city spots (numer & quality) and .strat resources that are at your disposal.
How long you want to remain peaceful should inform you as far as how much settling and development (infra) you can afford.

Something like that. Easier to go case by case

Got it, the logic on Cow/Silver makes a lot more sense to me now. In my calculation I was weighing the road auto-connection with the gold site a lot higher. I think I also was influenced by my tech path and not scouting the Silver until late. I only saw the Silver when BW was almost in so I wouldn't have had AH for all that production like you did here. I will emphasize production higher in the future, though I guess my follow up question would be, does the existence of Silver and Gold make you more aggressive in pursuing production > commerce given that you can catch up easily with these two resources? I've had some other games where it looks commerce starved so I am much more wary of production early since paying for expensive techs like AH/BW early means you really delay your cottages since it will take along time to research that. I guess Gold/Silver makes the order choice more forgiving here.

When you say that good large amounts of land favor larger/long-term cities rather than food sharing, are you assuming that large amounts of land = higher happy cap from more happy resources? Do you have a rule of thumb or criteria to use to decide when to add a helper city and when to skip it (i.e. needs to claim a new resource, have X amount of its own food, etc.)?

 

[sampsa]

If pursuing this strategy, when would you start building up HAs?

As early as available. It doesn't really matter much if you delay MT/gunpowder, because with HA+GM-upgrade you can attack 1T after acquiring those techs (upgrade on the turn you have gunpowder, attack next turn).

How would you evaluate how much unhappiness can be tolerated? Furthermore, how much would you whip down your cities? Would you be whipping down your Bureaucracy Capitol even if it is your main commerce center?

I think having two unhappies for a short period of time is OK. Whipping down depends quite a lot on the tiles available. If you need units, then it's OK to whip away grass cottages, even in capital. You can have one city working all the cottages, depending on the tile sharing. Anyway, the most important thing is to win the war in a quick fashion, everything else is secondary.

I ended up not whipping the Capitol and producing a University there instead of units which I guess is wrong if focusing on speeding up the attack date. When would you selectively transition the Capitol back to building infrastructure from units?

I think cap should revert back to peace mode once it's clear that the war is won. And by that I guess I mean until the continent is all yours.

 

[lymond]

Good Job, AB.

Not sure Theo was needed here. I'd have used the golden age to pump more great folks and research in push to Astro.

Hammy I might just vassalize here.

You probably know this, but in lead up to MT, I'd start putting hammers into horse units or elephants...in every city. Just make sure that if you have all Cur prereqs before Lib>MT not to be at 1H to completion on those units the last turn of Lib.

Bank in Ulundi is a waste.

Astro would be my priority here

 

[AlmightyBureaucrat]

As early as available. It doesn't really matter much if you delay MT/gunpowder, because with HA+GM-upgrade you can attack 1T after acquiring those techs (upgrade on the turn you have gunpowder, attack next turn).

You probably know this, but in lead up to MT, I'd start putting hammers into horse units or elephants...in every city. Just make sure that if you have all Cur prereqs before Lib>MT not to be at 1H to completion on those units the last turn of Lib.

Great, will prioritize the upgrading route for future games.

In the meantime...

Spoiler T205 Domination :

Final turnset!

T189: Hammy is dead. We have Astro and are on the way to Rifling.

T191: I use my Great Artist on a golden age (8 turns).
T196: Declare war on Hatty.
T199: Hatty capitulates. I use two more GPs on a Golden Age. Declare war on Ragnar.
T201: Ragnar capitulates.
T202: Declare war on Saladin.
T204: Saladin Capitulates. Unfortunately I am not able to take Medina, which has the MOM (and would allow me to do a 12-turn golden age). But with border pops I should win Domination if I capitulate him here now. Clearly I had too many great people which I should have used earlier. Having 11 turns left on a Golden Age at the victory date is a waste...
T205: Victory!

Not my quickest win, but definitely in the top 5. I think it is my quickest non-Pangaea win though. Thanks for all the tips guys. Will take those to the next game!

 

[Nick723]

I've read this, but it either doesn't work or I don't understand how it works.

Sorry for the slow reply! You’re absolutely right, it doesn’t for me either...

I swear it used to, or perhaps I just saw it on a video and assumed it was working for me! Not sure what’s going on here!