Immortal Shadow Game - Suryavarman II of Khmer

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Spoiler :

But what have you worked in the capital? 12 every turn until now I guess.

I guess so. It made sense when building the worker, for the extra EXP, but I obviously neglected to fix it when building the warrior.

Not sure if that's good. In general, always work the best tiles! Also, at least for me whipping the 1st settler is natural with these tiles and tech path, so not maximizing food is bad. With 2 city center you generally get enough warriors out in time.

Ok. I'm going to need to go through the maths on this one. A 1-pop whip is 22=30 which makes sense at size 2. But if I understand correctly, the food cost goes up slightly with each pop (ie whipping a 5pop city down to 4 pop costs more than whipping 2->1). So when you get to a 2-pop whip (size 4->2) the equation changes again. I'm not sure if any of that makes any difference, or if I'm making any sense. I'm just trying to wrap my head around why a 3 0 tile is better than a 1 2 one.

By 2nd worker I assume you mean second warrior, but that doesn't add up. Of course you will work the improved tile from now on. You'll grow in 4 and will make 8 in that time, it doesn't add up.

Yes, warrior. Not worker. And you're absolutely right. Ignore my previous comment. With the corn finished, growth happens much faster. Not sure what my brain was doing there.

 

[sampsa]

whip without a granary discussion

Spoiler :

A 1-pop whip is 22=30 which makes sense at size 2. But if I understand correctly, the food cost goes up slightly with each pop (ie whipping a 5pop city down to 4 pop costs more than whipping 2->1). So when you get to a 2-pop whip (size 4->2) the equation changes again. I'm not sure if any of that makes any difference, or if I'm making any sense. I'm just trying to wrap my head around why a 3 0 tile is better than a 1 2 one.

You are correct. The cost of growth is 22,24,26,28,30 until size 6. Then you can whip that pop off for 30 each, do you've paid a bit less food than what you gain hammers. Already this makes 1>1. But you also get an extra for unimproved fp and while your maintenance cost might go up 1 you still gain by rather growing -> whip than stagnating.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Got it. Thanks! I won't rewind this game, but I'll try to remember that for next time.

Spoiler When to switch to settler :

From where I'm at on T15 with 4 stored, working the farm grows me in 3T - (3x6)+4=22 - but gets me a warrior in 6T. So, am I better off growing to size 3, then switching to settler?
That would take me another 24 which, if I'm netting 7/turn, will take 4 turns. Even if I farm an adjacent FP, it won't be up in time to affect this, I think.

Is that right?

If so, 4 turns sounds like a long time to wait, just to get another 1/turn net. So switching from warrior to settler immediately at size 2 is the correct play?

 

[sampsa]

settler whip talk

Spoiler :

It depends whether you will whip the settler or not. Since you've worked high so far you are away from the whip path, so yes start a settler at size 2 or 3. Chop asap towards settler to minimize the amount you stagnate.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Spoiler T21 - New potential city site :

So, 1 turn away from size 3, at which point I'll start building my settler.
I finally found the pig to my north, and scouted a bit to the west, which suggests a potential city near the rice (1 tile E, NE or even N of that rice). I don't know how Spain will react to that, and it probably chokes the (a) site anyway.

There's also a possible production site sharing (a)'s pig, but if I do both, then (a) has nothing but shared tiles, which sounds terribly limiting. So it's probably an either/or/neither situation.

ps. I just realised how long the settler is going to take, and I'm missing IMP at this point.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Spoiler Alternate Dot Map :

Or, I could move (a) completely. Maybe something like this...

?

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Spoiler Alternatively... :

Or, if we're worried about having food in first ring...

Shares fewer tiles with capital, but they still share the FP with each other.

 

[sampsa]

city site stuff

Spoiler :

Some advice on how to decide where to settle your first cities

• strongest sites first!
• is the most important thing
• if you have a river, your initial cities are nearly always settled by it
• consider how long it takes to set the city up and favor sites that contribute without worker turns so they can do things like chop
• consider safety (from both barbs and AI)

I think your 'prod' is just trash - far, unconnected, has nothing going for it really beyond some chops. You can claim all the good tiles it has if you just settle 'a' or 1NE of 'a' for example. Not sure if I understand your rice spot - if you go there the point is to get the stone.

For me there is no point trying to mark 6-8 spots you want. Mark 3 or so that you will get next, that have food, are mostly insta-connected (since you do have a river) and can immediately work unimproved fps. Maximize short term gains.

I just realised how long the settler is going to take, and I'm missing IMP at this point.

IMP is very good if you have good land (I think the last game showcased that). At least you can and will chop.

Also btw, that mine is not horrible for you if you don't whip settlers. Not sure if you should build it but can be considered.

 

[sampsa]

more city site stuff

Spoiler :

For me, the obvious 2nd city is to the north - pig, wet corn, oasis... why not 1S of pig, that claims all the strong tiles? 1E of pig is possible if you want 3rd to the west by the river, but I think you have other areas you want to settle. Maybe 3rd to your 'b' area to get corn and fp. Or 'yuck' or the cow spot in the S.

 

[sampsa]

T30, nothing especially spoily

Spoiler :

Started settler at 4, 2-pop whipped when chop came in. Overflow to worker which is now finished with a second chop. 1st worker keeps chopping, 2nd goes to improve 2nd corn. Will whip next settler also, settling either NE or 'yuck'. That extra will be useful quickly.

Of course towards pottery now, those EXP granaries are excellent. Then AH. If no horse then need to wait until construction for war.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Apparently, my brain is just not working correctly today. I might need to take break and try again tomorrow. Just wanted to give you a heads up.

 

[sampsa]

No rush, I won't post further progress. Also @antimony and hopefully others should join!

 

[antimony]

Don't forget you're CRE, you don't need food in first ring. Although it doesn't impact any decision here I think.

I agree with a, c, b from your T21 picture on that order. First city being already connected to capital is very valuable (2 per turn). For c vs. b, for me it comes down to the happiness from the ivory. Just make sure that the floodplains that c can work is farmed in time. Also with 2 roads (west of c and then grass hill east of capital) you can connect all 3 rivers).

Cow can be next for city 5. Extra on riverside dye is a nice bonus.

I agree also with @sampsa's tech path. Bronze working gives you production that your capital is missing, and then you don't want to wait for pottery any longer. I would leave pigs alone (still a 3 1 tile) until AH, post pottery, and focus on cottages plus improving that ivory.

 

[antimony]

whip without a granary discussion

Spoiler :

You are correct. The cost of growth is 22,24,26,28,30 until size 6. Then you can whip that pop off for 30 each, do you've paid a bit less food than what you gain hammers. Already this makes 1>1. But you also get an extra for unimproved fp and while your maintenance cost might go up 1 you still gain by rather growing -> whip than stagnating.

I think this is the key point, the floodplains are just good tiles unimproved and they accelerate your growth instead of just steady growth if you were to only add green tiles. This is to contrast with a situation where you have 2 or 3 power tiles and the rest average land, especially if one of these power tiles has hammers and not just food, then stagnating growth to produce first settler might beat whipping it.

 

[Fippy]

I would be greedy and settle in between Jumbos, gold & pigs east (if it's still free)..
Sury with 2 happy resis is insane early.

 

[antimony]

So the grass river tile above eastern elephant or the plains non river above it for city 3?

In @sampsa's game Stalin seems to have settled his city 2 in the other direction, which helps for that plan.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

T27. I know I'm moving slowly, but I want to try to get this right. In particular, my worker...

Spoiler T27 - Worker decision :

I've just finished a chop, and I don't have time to do another one before the settler is out. As near as I can tell, the worker has three options:
1. Start another chop (not sure what I'm building next in the capital, but another worker or settler can't be too far away).
2. Mine a hill.
3. Farm the northern corn. Thanks to a border pop, I've got access to it and can get it online almost before my second city is in place at (a).

That last option seems clearly best to me. Am I missing something?

Also, should i get another warrior out (and grow) before building another settler? I'm still ~13 turns away from being able to build cottages, so I'm not sure that another worker right now would be especially helpful. I mean, I'm sure I could find something for it to do, but is it really a priority?

 

[antimony]

Absolutely farm. It will be online on T32 and the city founded on T31. Have you switched to slavery yet? If not, a great time to revolt is just the turn your settler is out. Then you don't delay the settler and you don't lose a turn in city 2.

What are the food bar and production bar values in your capital on that turn 27?

 

[sampsa]

worker stuff

Spoiler :

Your brain is still resisting, fighting for the old habits. You should chop as much as possible as fast as possible. It's insanely powerful to pull 5pt at the cost of a workerT. The earlier you do it the better. In most cases saving all forest for maths is horrible. Chop towards more workers and settlers so that you expand at the maximum speed (bearing safety in mind). It's so much better to found cities earlier, because they are not costing you and are generating +. Say a founded city starts to work an unimproved fp - that's 31pt (the from city center). It's like working an extra 51 tile! Not much can compete with that. It's especially strong here because you have many many strong sites. It's very important to settle them as fast as possible.

Same for adding an extra worker. It can chop. That's 5pt. It's not "not especially helpful", it's awesome. Just by looking at these numbers it's no longer clear whether it's better to improve wet corn even (you also have oasis available) at it's 3pt vs 5pt (from chop). It's possible to chop towards worker to win workerT by getting it out earlier, then farm corn. You should switch to slavery when settler is on the move. Or just farm corn now, whip worker size 4, then chop with both workers. When you understand all this you also partly understand why I don't like mines very much. Other stuff is just often much better than mines.

Should you get another warrior now, well do you need it? I was fog busting north with scout+warrior but not sure if it's necessary as there are plenty of AI units around. Of course your 3rd city spot needs to be secured.

 

[sampsa]

pig/gold-site stuff, +T40 talk but not very spoily

Spoiler :

I think I could've gotten it in my game with the 3rd settler as Stalin took the spot T44. Maybe it was an opportunity for me to be more opportunistic, a fabulous skill in this game! Anyway there is a -res claimable with the 3rd city so I did get 2 -res. I don't think the gold tile itself is that important with CRE libraries being around the corner. Also, that spot is very demanding on worker turns and I'm quite happy with the 5-city empire I got that requires zero roads to be connected. Can get more via trade and religion and conquer the gold spot later.