Immortal Shadow Game - Suryavarman II of Khmer

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Spoiler :

Your brain is still resisting, fighting for the old habits.

You're absolutely right. That's why I need to ask these questions. Apparently, a 19-year old habit is a bit stubborn.

It's so much better to found cities earlier, because they are not costing you

Wait. They're not? Then why do I run a deficit the minute I found my second city?

Say a founded city starts to work an unimproved fp - that's 31pt (the from city center). It's like working an extra 51 tile! Not much can compete with that.

I can see that. Thanks.

Should you get another warrior now, well do you need it? I was fog busting north with scout+warrior but not sure if it's necessary as there are plenty of AI units around. Of course your 3rd city spot needs to be secured.

I've got two warriors (one on the next city site, and one on a forested hill east of the site after that), so I'm not too worried. My scout is fogbusting to the north, but there's a lot of fog to my south that does concern me.

I guess I'll go worker, settler next in the capital, chopping all the way.
Does city #2 go for a size 1 worker, while I'm waiting for granaries, or is that maybe where I get my next warrior from?

And yes, I usually revolt while my first settler is on the move. Which I've never accidentally forgotten to do. Nope. Never. Honest.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

What are the food bar and production bar values in your capital on that turn 27?

4/26
75/100

With 9+2 going into the settler

 

[sampsa]

early build stuff

Spoiler :

Wait. They're not? Then why do I run a deficit the minute I found my second city?

What I mean is that yes, while your maintenance goes up (2nd city usually increases maintenance by 3) you also generate more : 1 from 2nd city city center, 1 for the worked tile and 1*2 for trade routes, netting you 1. Maybe 3rd is slightly negative, but not much. 4th a bit more, but remember that it immediately gains 31. If you have a choice, found 4 connected cities as fast as you can.

I've got two warriors (one on the next city site, and one on a forested hill east of the site after that), so I'm not too worried. My scout is fogbusting to the north, but there's a lot of fog to my south that does concern me.

I neglected the south and got away with it, because there are plenty of AI units roaming there. Not sure if I got a bit lucky or not.

Does city #2 go for a size 1 worker, while I'm waiting for granaries, or is that maybe where I get my next warrior from?

No, starting with a worker in 2nd city is nearly always a (big) mistake. It's especially a mistake with access to a high-tile. If you want a worker, grow to 2 and whip (probably with the help of one chop). The reason is that it's cheaper to whip it (growing is only 22) and then there is the EXP bonus, which would make slow building a worker an even bigger mistake. Start a warrior, you will need it later to keep the city happy.

 

[sampsa]

Anyway, don't stress too much. You will still make plenty of mistakes (I know I do!) but the point is to cut them off one by one. You can't just become a flawless player overnight. Remember to enjoy the process of learning.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Anyway, don't stress too much. You will still make plenty of mistakes (I know I do!) but the point is to cut them off one by one. You can't just become a flawless player overnight. Remember to enjoy the process of learning.

Thanks. I don't mind making mistakes. It's the feeling that despite my best efforts, I'm not improving that I find disheartening. I must be a sucker for punishment, though, because I keep coming back.
Or maybe experience has taught me that if I persevere, that will pass, and I'll make progress. Either way, I appreciate your (ie everyone here) patience and generosity. I know I can be a bit thin-skinned when I feel inept. The vibe here makes it safe to lean into that. Cheers.

 

[antimony]

@sampsa

I didn't think the river running by the capital would be connected to the southern one by the cows because usually just touching the "source" of a river doesn't count as being on that river, sometimes I'm still a bit confused by the rules for this.

@Gunboat Diplomat

On the worker planning

Spoiler :

So you're getting quite a bit of overflow from the settler on T30, I would put that into a worker next (so the turn after revolt). But after one turn into the worker (make sure you have less that 23 into it though so it's still a 2-pop whip), switch to grow to size 4 in 3 turns, then 2-whip the worker (out T36), overflow into settler. At the same time your first worker will finish a chop into that settler as well, so we're talking about 30 surplus overflow from worker + the chop, settler already has 50 (or a bit less) into it + 10 per turn at size 2. That settler could then be out on T41 or T42 on its own. You could still chop again with worker 1 as long as the settler overflow goes into the granary (so pottery needs to be researched) while worker 2 farms the floodplains that will serve the ivory city (c) (if that's still the plan) or chops the granary in city 2, not sure which is better.

Given knowledge of the timing at which Russia settled the gold site in @sampsa's game, I probably wouldn't risk it. Besides, it feels we'll need both workers for cottages after T40.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

A few more decisions to make...

@antimony Sorry, I'd already played those turns before I saw your post. Thanks for providing the break-down. I'll definitely go over those numbers when I get a chance.

Spoiler Turn 40 :

First of all, I've renamed the cities. I won't be doing anyone any favours by trying to pronounce or type the Khmer names.

Tech: Pottery is finally finished. I want to go Writing next for the cheap libraries, or AH for the resources, but archery is possible too. I've got some barb activity on my northern border that has the potential to be annoying. The other available techs aren't even on my radar at this point.

Pig City: I want to 1-pop whip the warrior into granary. Is that reasonable?
Ivory City: Granary first?

Southern Worker: I can either farm the only FP that Ivory City has access to, but that will take ages. I'm guessing my better option would be to chop out the granary in that city instead?

Northern Worker: After it finishes its current chop, and then one more to the NE, I want to get it to work cottaging all those yummy flood plains. Does that sound about right?

T40, and I've only got two improved tiles, but two workers and three cities. This is definitely outside my comfort zone. Let's go!

 

[sampsa]

I didn't think the river running by the capital would be connected to the southern one by the cows because usually just touching the "source" of a river doesn't count as being on that river, sometimes I'm still a bit confused by the rules for this.

You are correct, I didn't settle that spot as my 5th.

T40 comments

Spoiler :

You delayed improving the corn a lot, but actually I don't think it's horrible. Now it is a priority though, yes whip granary. is more important than cottages!

By now you've seen the fur in the NE so it's time to move 'b' 1NE I think. Doesn't waste a forest and claims a .

I'd certainly go AH now, if you have horse you can smash the map with horse archers. You still have stuff to build before libraries (workers, a settler probably, granaries).

Ivory city: take the fp (though I assume you were going to), yes now with granary available I think it's better to get it asap and farm fp can wait. Chop, improve ivory. Btw unless I'm the ivory city will be connected to capital after border pop. I know for a fact my 4-city empire was all connected with zero roads which is awesome.

edit: oh in my game every time cap was stagnating on worker/settler, 2nd city worked the corn. I think it's a good habit to learn.

 

[sampsa]

my T40 screenshot

Spoiler :

I went for corn+fur as 3rd because it's a much better city. I'm somehow quite a bit ahead in worker turns but behind in settler production. About 1,5T ahead in .

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Spoiler :

You delayed improving the corn a lot, but actually I don't think it's horrible.

Ummm... I might have gotten carried away with the chopping. Oops.

By now you've seen the fur in the NE so it's time to move 'b' 1NE I think. Doesn't waste a forest and claims a .

Yep. Sounds good.

Ivory city: take the fp (though I assume you were going to),

I have to say, that this is a very courageous assumption. This is exactly the kind of thing that I habitually miss. If you hadn't pointed it out, I never would have seen it. In fact, this is why I haven't played for the last 24 hours, and have instead been developing a tool to help me plan out cities and tiles in excruciating tediousness.

For a while, at least, I'll have to refer to that tool, for every city, (almost) every turn. At least then, I'll have a plan and be able to stick to it. If the plan is faulty, that's a different issue.

I'm somehow quite a bit ahead in worker turns but behind in settler production.

Perhaps I chopped an extra forest? It's possible that one grew in my game that didn't it yours.

oh in my game every time cap was stagnating on worker/settler, 2nd city worked the corn. I think it's a good habit to learn.

Hmmm... doing that delays the settler by a turn (in this case, and assuming I'll 1-pop whip it). There might be some way to manage the sharing so that the capital takes the tile for a turn or two, and eliminates that delay. Would that be beneficial, or am I overthinking again?

 

[sampsa]

city management stuff

Spoiler :

This is exactly the kind of thing that I habitually miss. If you hadn't pointed it out, I never would have seen it. In fact, this is why I haven't played for the last 24 hours, and have instead been developing a tool to help me plan out cities and tiles in excruciating tediousness.

For a while, at least, I'll have to refer to that tool, for every city, (almost) every turn. At least then, I'll have a plan and be able to stick to it. If the plan is faulty, that's a different issue.

So what I do (without even thinking) is I glance at the screen (not the city screen, but the main view) and see whether all improved tiles are being worked and whether no unimproved tile is being worked (IMO floodplains are somewhere in the middle of improved and unimproved). Then see if I can do something about it. And I "see" a few turns forward in general which you'll do with experience.

Perhaps I chopped an extra forest? It's possible that one grew in my game that didn't it yours.

Yes, this is the only explanation I can think of!

Hmmm... doing that delays the settler by a turn (in this case, and assuming I'll 1-pop whip it). There might be some way to manage the sharing so that the capital takes the tile for a turn or two, and eliminates that delay. Would that be beneficial, or am I overthinking again?

It's a judgement call. I think founding the 4th faster is good idea because it's connected and has the wet corn to be worked and I'd be willing to sacrifice some to get it faster.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

So what I do (without even thinking) is I glance at the screen (not the city screen, but the main view) and see whether all improved tiles are being worked

Right. My eyes aren't quite sharp enough to see that easily. (I assume you're looking at the size difference between the tile yield icons edit: or maybe the little hut thing) I'll see if I can work on that. Otherwise I might have to play with the Field of View setting. It will make scrolling a bit painful, but it might work.
Thanks for that tip.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Build another worker (or settler) vs grow into unhappiness while building another warrior for fogbusting/city happiness?

Spoiler T46 - Too much food! :

I guess another option is to put 3 turns into a settler, then switch to a warrior so that it grows to size 4 on the turn that the cruelty unhappiness expires, after which I could switch back to the settler until it's ready for a 2-pop whip.

For context, my capital is building a granary while regrowing from its settler chop (currently size 2). So it will be a while before it's ready to start a stagnating build.

Edit: I just realised that the Field of View setting also changes the map in the city screen! Hopefully, that means my city screen screenshots will be much more helpful in the future.

 

[sampsa]

more city management stuff, things that I think most players don't do optimally

Spoiler :

Repeat after me: "there is no such thing as too much food". You can always use it one way or another (well, here the 4th city will steal the corn soon). Also as I've said before, after you've invested in a granary, aim to whip all your settlers/workers. But you'll grow into unhappiness or even worse, stack unhappiness! It's not a big deal really if you look at the numbers.

Slow building is 1->1 conversion. -bar size is 22,24,26 etc. and with a granary you half of the last size for free, i.e. when you grow to size 2 you get 11, making the cost of growing 24-11=13. So with a granary, the needed to grow is 22,13,14,15 etc. So growing from size 2 to size 4 with a granary costs only 13+14=27 and that can be 2-pop whipped for 60, so that's an over 1->2 conversion even without the EXP bonus!

So only if the -situation is super dire and the worker/settler is not urgent (say 7th city settler or 6th worker) I would sacrifice that amount of and slow build. Unhappiness is only -2pt anyway and that unhappy citizen is worth 30, later.

So in your city, I'd put towards warrior or if you don't need it, barracks. If you need a worker, start it size 4, whip it next turn (no overflow-nonsense with 1->1 conversion thank you). If you need a settler, grow to 6 (yes I know it will be unhappy), start a settler, whip next turn.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Ok. I just checked, and you're totally correct. So why do some articles state that food costs are 50% higher (33, 36, 39, etc)? I was basing my calculations on needing 75 (pre-granary) to get from size 2 to size 4. Obviously that changes the calculations. I like your numbers much better. Thanks for spelling it out for me.

 

[antimony]

33 food, etc. would be on epic speed.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

33 food, etc. would be on epic speed.

I didn't even think of that. Yep. It turns out the article I was using did mention epic speed. That was wrinkling my brain. Thanks.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Well, I've kind of jumped ahead a bit. I tried to do everything that has been suggested. I've grown my cities with abandon, then whipped ruthlessly, chopping along the way. Maybe I got it close to right, maybe nowhere near. Either way, I think it's time to move this game along a bit...

Spoiler Turn 60 :

Just got my 5th city, Cow City, up. I moved it one tile south to secure copper and to not kill the fish. Joao isn't going to like it, but he was never going to be my friend anyway, I think.

I've got six workers, which sounds ok, but I want more. Most cities are growing. Once they're an appropriate size, my plan is to 2-pop whip a library, then let them get back to what they're currently building (barracks in most cases because they had nothing else to do a few turns ago). I don't know - can I just keep growing and whipping things until I get my cottages up? Surely at some point I need to let this stacked settle down a bit?

I've got workers connecting up the fur and pig, and my first ivory just came online. I've also got a couple on the way south to hook up copper. After that, I believe it's time to start spamming cottages - FP first, then riverside grassland.

Improving the other two ivory seems like a good idea. I may want to trade it. I don't usually trade away resources that can be used to make units, but it should be harmless until the AI gets Construction, shouldn't it?

Ivory City will struggle with food (maxxing out before it hits the happy cap even) unless I give it some farms, or work grass tiles. I'm not entirely sure what is the best way to manage that, so I'm open to suggestions.

I want to settle two more cities out of force of habit, but my brain is telling me that neither are a good idea. There's a spot in the NE, probably on the coast, to grab the silver. It will be a rubbish city whose sole purpose is to provide +1 to the rest of the empire. The other spot is in the SE, between the gold and the horses. Again, no food here at all, but it will get me happy gold, plus, the horses I want to run over the top of all my neighbours and begin my dominion of the whole world!!!!

Edit: I don't want that latter spot anymore. I think I'd rather just take Novgorod off Stalin. It has gold, and I'll get the horses anyway. Use elephants to annex the horses that I'll use later for knights or cuirassiers. I like that plan much better.

Spoiler River trade route confusion :

Sampsa was right. Ivory City and the Capital were connected after only one border pop.

This is confusing me because that river loops outside my borders, and the Capital isn't even connected to it. How?

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Oh, and then there's tech and diplomacy...

Spoiler Still turn 60 :

I put Fishing as a placeholder, and meant to change it. I'm not convinced that's my most urgent tech. At this point, I usually start heading towards currency, but for some reason my economy hasn't crashed yet, and I haven't even started building cottages yet, so maybe there's no rush.

Other options that look good are Mathematics and Masonry -> Construction. Oh, and I need HBR for my UU, don't I? So maybe I should be thinking about an Elepult expansion?

And on the diplo front, Stalin declared on Washington, and I didn't even see him plotting. Time to start paying attention to that.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Oh, and I've got tech trading on, so I should also be thinking about something that I can trade for (most of) alphabet at some point. I usually use Aesthetics, but Currency works too.