[BTS] Immortal Stalin shadow

[jnebbe]

Going to start another shadow game. I haven't won another immortal game since posting about my 1st win. I can get ahead in tech usually and feel like my empire management is generally good, but I really struggle to breakout. My cuir attacks basically always fail, rifle+cannons attacks aren't effective, I can get a nice tech lead but I never know what to do with it. Likely other earlier mistakes that contribute to my poor late game.

Leader is Stalin -> AGG/IND
Starts with Hunting/Mining

Map is Pangaea and standard settings except for no vassals
Start:

Spoiler :

Will move scout NW but probably SIP unless I literally find like double gold or something, not worth moving away from a river and killing a forested PH.

Really curious about techpath. I remember reading a little bit ago that you should go either AH or Agri before pottery, not both.

Going AH->BW->Agri->wheel->pottery would let me improve both animal food sources (both of which would give less food than a wet corn though) but would significantly delay pottery.
Going Agri->BW->wheel->pottery->AH gets pottery a bit sooner and improves best food source 1st but takes way longer to improve the sheep/pig, I guess you could mine those in the mean time. There's a decent chance I find an ai before T5 and also a decent chance other ais will have AH by the time I commit to it.

I think agri 1st is best

 

[krikav]

The saying as it goes, is that you can afford to get AH or BW before Pottery but not both.
But in reality, it's just that you have to pay attention so that you don't overexpand before you have some economical techs in.
It might be so little as some beavers, or having fishing in a coastal start (for the unimproved coast).

I think I would lean toward settling on that PH anyway, but scout NW->NW or something might reveal only desert.
Killing a forested PH is not something that is relevant, but moving away from the river and the sheep and the forests are.
Still, that extra hammer city center improves corn 2 turns faster than SiP if you go agri, and after that it will get out warriors faster while you grow. Good stuff!

I would probably not think about skipping agri, wet corn is wet corn, and agriculture does save alot of beakers while going AH later on.
If anything, I would consider skipping AH, since both those animals are on hills that can be mined.
But pigs/sheep are strong, so it might be that it's BW that have to get delayed?

 

[crashmon]

Just a question why do you have vassals off? being able to quickly vassal in a war helps speed up your attacks, and you can use your vassals to distract the other civ's by having them attack cities not near the ones you are aiming for.

 

[Fippy]

Good start for sure but no , depends on timing but wheel before BW is very possible.
Moscow will not be on the river.
Don't skip Agri with wet corn unless there are stronger reasons
Planning techs (other than Agri) should always happen after more has been discovered, esp. with a faster moving scout.

 

[sampsa]

Agri-BW-wheel(-pottery?) feels right to me, maybe on deity I'd go wheel before BW.

Definitely check the ph-spot though, unless all 10 revealed tiles are garbage I think I'd settle there. Yes loses 3 green river tiles and a 4-tile, but you can claim them with another city. Oh also equator is north, another small reason to move that way.

 

[crashmon]

One question (seeing I was told off for settling away from food in another thread )... Is it that we are the cap, and therefore will expand into the 2nd circle of the BFC before we get the worker built that the PH to the NW is the potential cap city spot. If this was not our Cap, but 2nd city without being Cre, would the PH still be the spot, or in that case would you SIP as your next to the wet corn?

 

[petersc]

Oh also equator is north, another small reason to move that way.

Seems like another little trick I never knew about. How do we know the equator is north?
Edit: Is it the direction of river flow?

 

[sampsa]

Seems like another little trick I never knew about. How do we know the equator is north?
Edit: Is it the direction of river flow?

The trees to the south are snowy.

 

[sampsa]

One question (seeing I was told off for settling away from food in another thread )... Is it that we are the cap, and therefore will expand into the 2nd circle of the BFC before we get the worker built that the PH to the NW is the potential cap city spot. If this was not our Cap, but 2nd city without being Cre, would the PH still be the spot, or in that case would you SIP as your next to the wet corn?

Exactly, capital pops 2nd ring quickly so it doesn't matter if is on 1st or 2nd ring. If 2nd city was going to this area I'd choose a spot that claims at least two of the -resources to 1st ring (SIP, 2N or 1N2E seem most reasonable).

 

[krikav]

One small aspect not mentioned yet, is that settlement on the PH gives more flexibility with regard on how to share the corn with other cities.

 

[jnebbe]

Moved scout

Spoiler :

yuck

Tough call, early game the PH spot will be pretty nice but it will be very underwhelming later on, only 1 riverside grassland. Maybe it could be a good GP city but that's about it

 

[sampsa]

Yeh, looks a bit ugly , but I think on pangaea I'd go for the max immediate gains, meaning settling the ph in this case. I'm sure other plays are reasonable, too.

 

[krikav]

Another corn! That settles the deal then!
All that desert is abit annoying, but I would move. It is a nice spot to generate great people or a place to put globe.
It can be nice to do whipping like crazy in a food dense capital with glove, no need to worry about whip anger and all whips is done at 50% hammers.

In either case the situation is helped by IND, cheaper palace if you want to move, and cheaper globe too.

 

[jnebbe]

T0-T10

Spoiler :

Settled on PH, planning on agri->bw->wheel->pottery

10 turns in and its already looking pretty rough

Scouted north then clockwise
Desert/plains to west+east, huge tundra to south, only 1 available food source found + an oasis.

Probably going bw next, if copper is available then an axe rush is definitely looking like a decent play
If I don't have copper, maybe go ah next and gamble on finding sheep? Worst case scenario I can settle that gold+oasis for some quick commerce

 

[sampsa]

Perhaps the scouting could've been improved a bit... We already established T0 from the trees that it's going to be tundra and ice, so it's not very interesting. The most interesting area is the river up north, but you haven't scouted that direction at all. Another interesting area would be east, because of the stone.

With 4 -resources (plus the deer) I wouldn't despair at all. I don't think you need to gamble AH. Not sure on BW now, wheel-pottery is an option that was already mentioned on T0. 3N1E with current information would be my 2nd spot in that case.

 

[krikav]

Not nice surroundings really...
But food around capital can easily support 3 satellite cities or so.

I think your scouting is abit off. I would have wanted to climb the hills in the east. Basically to know all tiles that would be within reach, from cities that would still reach capitals corn/pigs. So you missed a few tiles there.
Then the southern scouting doesn't make much sense, no point exploring there now. Won't rush down to settle icy fishing villages anytime soon.

As it is now, I would want to see if Pacals capital is on a hill or not, which should be visible from that hill NW of the cows I think. It's also nice to have view of AIs capitals as that can enable you to see if they are building a wonder.

TW after BW sounds reasonable, I think I would want to settle second city on the river up north to share the dry corn and to stake out some land there.
Desert gold I'm no fan of. Huge worker turn sink and it doesn't really help commerce that much either.

 

[krikav]

Have to assess again at BW, or at TW. But I think I would be inclined to go BW->TW->AH, with hunting in already AH is a turn cheaper or so, and if you make sure to connect city1&city2 economical ruin should be avoided. You have the unimproved wine and unimproved rivers to catch pottery if such a more ambitious path turns out to be too costly.

 

[Fippy]

I would focus a gold with oasis city first (might not be soooo popular with Krikav & Sampsa ),
Moscow easily good enuf to cover expansion with a pure city as help first.

 

[sampsa]

I would focus a gold with oasis city first (might not be soooo popular with Krikav & Sampsa )

I think it makes sense, is lacking so doing a bit of a sacrifice (=weak 2nd city long term) to get fast is well-grounded, while at the same time claiming the area that is currently most contested. Such a shame gold isn't next to marble, in that case I'd settle on marble and stagnate size 1.

 

[crashmon]

Need to be quick to grab it, I think I can see Pacal's borders very close