Immortal University 56 Pacal II

[ben-jammin]

Am I the only one who has trouble with food in these games recently?

No, this map doesnt give you a lot to work with. What with

Spoiler :

most of the nearby land being desert, and zero good food tiles that arent fish or crab. It's pretty easy to avoid war on this map, if the stone were marble instead a cultural victory would be less tedious.

 

[obsolete]

What Tribute did you ask?

I think it was a health resource. Yeah, stupid.

Anyhow, I decided to re-run through it for a third time. Doing some cottage spam experimenting on the default immortal save now. Can't say I like it very much, and things have blown up in my face in a bad way.

That's what I deserve I guess... should have known better.

 

[yatta77]

Am I the only one who has trouble with food in these games recently?

Spoiler :

No, you're not alone. The land is dry. And the Ai are Weirdly Insane.

Spoiler :

if the stone were marble instead a cultural victory would be less tedious.

Spoiler :

True. I'm trying it anyways but it is a pretty tough task...

---

Immortal, Standard Speed, Session 4, Turn 153, 860AD
Seriously, no offense please, this Game is weird, really! I don't know how, but this Map / those AIs seem tweaked somehow. Anyways, I might be wrong...

Spoiler :

Uhm... Gandhi doesn't Trade Music. Does this mean he's building the Sistine Chapel?
Brennus doesn't Trade anything, and this means few centuries before I had to Close Borders with him.

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Better hurry up with Music, and I can't wast one turn in Anarchy, let's put a couple of Scientists, I just hope it won't pollute too much the 100% Great Engineer.

Spoiler :

Hey! Seems like I had a border pop few turns ago! I have now a new spot for that Third Wanna-Be Legendary City!
The Sistine Chapel is going to be there! Let's make a Settler, hurry, hurry...

Spoiler :

87% Great Engineer, it is going to be enough?

Spoiler :

It is!

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Barbarian Galley close to my FishingBoats, I hope Gandhi's will help out with that Trireme...

Spoiler :

The most Breathtaking Turn...
Gong! Noooooo! Who was that? Gandhi I bet. Yeah... he's Trading Music now.
Wooow, wait! It was the Mausoleum of Maussollos! Not the Sistine Chapel!
Why he's giving up for the Sistine Chapel then, he's not even at war?
He's planning for war maybe? My army is just 1 single Warrior...
Uhm... who cares, he's pleased at me at least. And Zara too.
Good, both neighborhoods are Pleased, the Close borders won't be a too big issue, at least in the beginning.
Hey! Gandhi helped destroyed the Barbarians Galley! ...but Stole my Fish in the same turn! Thief!

Spoiler :

Anyways, I fear to lose the Sistine Chapel, better hurry up and synchronize! 4 turns for the Settler, 5 for Music. 1 Turn for the Settler and the Great Engineer to move 4 tiles on a road. Perfect! I hope at least.

Spoiler :

No my friend, I can't mess up with Religious issues this game.

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Settler and Great Engineer ready, and I'm just 1 Turn away from...

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Music! Next Civil Service >> Paper >> Education. And I aldo have few Trades ready!

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Revolution to Caste System, time for Artist now! Last task, let just Hurry Up the Sistine Chapel and be proud of it...
Aaaaargh! The Great Engineer wasn't enough! Silly me! I still 80 away, in a new founded city! In Anarchy!
Chop, Worker Boy! Chop! Doh, I just moved it to build an useless road!
And the Fish are 76% Gandhi now...

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Zara, seriously, do you really believe this is a good time to ask to join a war?!

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No Charlemagne, you can't have that, yet.

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Aaaaargh! Silly Me! I Triggered a Revolution to run many Artists, and I'm running Merchants!

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Turn 150, 800AD Islam was founded. And I don't even care where was that. Chop Worker Boy! Chop!

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No Zara, you can't have that, yet.

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Ok, Forest Chopped, 1 turn to the Sistine Chapel. You can have Music now. Uhm... Zara was very close anyways. Let's pick Literature, we have Horses, but the National Epic in more appealing. Charlemagne? Civil Service, ok. Let's take this first and have that Revolution to Bureaucracy in the next Turn, I have to finish up some important job this turn!

Spoiler :

The Capital is unhealthy now... that Fish Resource must come back!

Spoiler :

First Attempt, no Cheats, no Reloads.
Screen Shots in the Spoiler, Game Save Attached.

Comments Welcome.

Greetings,
yatta.

 

[yatta77]

I think it was a health resource. Yeah, stupid.

Anyhow, I decided to re-run through it for a third time. Doing some cottage spam experimenting on the default immortal save now. Can't say I like it very much, and things have blown up in my face in a bad way.

That's what I deserve I guess... should have known better.

Just reading it now. Let me know how it works, strange game also for me.
Nothing specific, but, you know, many things a bit too weird. Like

Spoiler :

Mansa discovering Alphabet in turn 40, 2400BC

But, probably it is just me not used to Immortal, who knows?

Thanks for replying

Greetings,
yatta.

 

[obsolete]

My cottage experiment is over.

Spoiler :

I got ripped off by another diplo win by hundreds of years because just as I timed things to vassal Zara for the vote, the idiot still wouldn't do it, even with just 3 really cities and me a giant.

I don't get it, any other time they vassal to the other AI's for no reason at all. Typical Firaxis just trying to F*ck over the human player in their way of SIMULATING intelligence.

 

[ben-jammin]

True. I'm trying it anyways but it is a pretty tough task...

Well....play the diplo game reeeal carefully. Getting the AIs to friendly will be the only chance at a cultural victory. And even then with no marble and only 3 cities....gonna be tough. 3 cities will only allow one of each religions +50% culture buildings if i'm not mistaken, so you better farm a ton of great artists.

 

[yatta77]

Spoiler :

Well....play the diplo game reeeal carefully. Getting the AIs to friendly will be the only chance at a cultural victory. And even then with no marble and only 3 cities....gonna be tough. 3 cities will only allow one of each religions +50% culture buildings if i'm not mistaken, so you better farm a ton of great artists.

Spoiler :

yeah... diplo and prayer (temples-cathedrals)... AND diplo without prayer (no state religion for now, so also no Pacifism).

I'm good avoiding wars I don't want to, don't worry in my two peaceful IU games so far #54 #55 not even a single turn IIRC, one cultural victory and one spaceship failed for 1 turn.

But I believe someone will colonize alpha centauri before my 3 legendary cities this time, the AI tech rate is just crazy, Liberalism Race will be kind of hard.

btw, Hermitage is another +100%, and Free Speech another of course.

On great Artists you are correct, once finishing with all the buildings. I'll probably need Biology and maybe National Park before winning this one. It is a shame that I had to Chop those forests.

Ah... forgot to mention I have to Build the National Epic in the Capital sometimes, I was forgetting about it, and just remembered it after posting.

One last note: if you culture bomb all the Artist in the last turn (as in my game #54) without pushing your borders too much toward other civs land, you don't really need to be friendly, cautious/pleased with everybody is likely enough, with a couple of tribute payed of course, if they ask for. The borders pushing annoys the Ais more.

Are you playing this map?

Greetings,
yatta.

 

[ben-jammin]

Spoiler :

yeah... diplo and prayer (temples-cathedrals)... AND diplo without prayer (no state religion for now, so also no Pacifism).

I'm good avoiding wars I don't want to, don't worry in my two peaceful IU games so far #54 #55 not even a single turn IIRC, one cultural victory and one spaceship failed for 1 turn.

But I believe someone will colonize alpha centauri before my 3 legendary cities this time, the AI tech rate is just crazy, Liberalism Race will be kind of hard.

btw, Hermitage is another +100%, and Free Speech another of course.

On great Artists you are correct, once finishing with all the buildings. I'll probably need Biology and maybe National Park before winning this one. It is a shame that I had to Chop those forests.

Ah... forgot to mention I have to Build the National Epic in the Capital sometimes, I was forgetting about it, and just remembered it after posting.

One last note: if you culture bomb all the Artist in the last turn (as in my game #54) without pushing your borders too much toward other civs land, you don't really need to be friendly, cautious/pleased with everybody is likely enough, with a couple of tribute payed of course, if they ask for. The borders pushing annoys the Ais more.

Are you playing this map?

Greetings,
yatta.

I gave her a quickie. got 8 cities up, but was getting out-teched so badly I figured I wasn't going to get the cultural victory I had started going after and flaked out. Didn't help that half those city locations were marginal at best. I picked an already fairly tedious and unexciting strategy on a map that only makes it more so, should have done something aggressive instead. I'll wait for the next IU thread

 

[yatta77]

I picked an already fairly tedious and unexciting strategy on a map that only makes it more so

Managing to play just a short session a day, it is fun in the setup part!
I agree that the end game might be quite monotonous, but can be spiced up sometimes (fighting an unwelcome defensive war or) hurting your rivals Diplomatically

yatta.

On the map not optimal I definitively agree.

 

[iDagon]

I quit!

I tried this map 3 times and tot crushed.

1 failed cultural win
2 spankings. I just could not outproduce the AI even though I was preparing for war..

Not immortal level yet..

 

[yatta77]

Immortal, Standard Speed, Session 5 and 6, Turn 256, 1730AD
culture: machine set up. Now it is mostly about hit enter (less than) 243 times and hope nobody colonizes Alpha Centauri before; I'll try it, but I guess this game is gone already)

Spoiler :

First Attempt, no Cheats, no Reloads.
Screen Shots in the Spoiler, Game Save Attached.

Last Doubts:

• Considering the Defy! UN resolutions mad and Emancipation mad, should I grow up to the Cap (to gain more ) or keep the cities this size (to avoid UnHappiness later)?
• It is worth it to build Harbors (in order to increase the Trade Routes), or it is already too late to bother about it.

Comments Welcome.

@Habitus
Sorry about ranting and blaming your map so much in this thread, I hope it didn't offend you.
Take it just as John McEnroe or Charles Barkley trash talking from agonistic tension facing a difficult match.
I didn't really mean to complain about it. If you played the map, I suppose you understood it.

Greetings,
yatta.

 

[Dhoomstriker]

@yatta77

Spoiler :

It is worth it to build Harbors (in order to increase the Trade Routes)

I would say "yes."

That's +2 Health for you for a building that is cheaper than an Aqueduct. It will probably translate into +1 or +2 base Commerce per City, which would get multiplied by your Cutural Multiplying Buildings.

Then, add in the fact that you'd be able to grow your 2 Cities two sizes larger, in order to be able to work 2 more Coast squares each, netting you even more raw Commerce.

Of course, after looking closer at your screenshots, by the looks of it, your capital is already pretty close to being Legendary, so you should probably skip building a Harbour there and just continue working the Artist Specialists. But, your production City could certainly use the Harbour.


Oh, I suppose that the capital could consider Chopping both Forests into a Harbour, while temporarily firing an Artist so as not to starve... as long as the 2 Forests would give you sufficient Hammers to complete the Harbour.

 

[yatta77]

@yatta77

Spoiler :

I would say "yes."

That's +2 Health for you for a building that is cheaper than an Aqueduct. It will probably translate into +1 or +2 base Commerce per City, which would get multiplied by your Cutural Multiplying Buildings.

Then, add in the fact that you'd be able to grow your 2 Cities two sizes larger, in order to be able to work 2 more Coast squares each, netting you even more raw Commerce.

Of course, after looking closer at your screenshots, by the looks of it, your capital is already pretty close to being Legendary, so you should probably skip building a Harbour there and just continue working the Artist Specialists. But, your production City could certainly use the Harbour.


Oh, I suppose that the capital could consider Chopping both Forests into a Harbour, while temporarily firing an Artist so as not to starve... as long as the 2 Forests would give you sufficient Hammers to complete the Harbour.

Spoiler :

Thanks for the Feedback.

I have in all three cities Apostolic Palace enhanced buildings.

Mutal.

Spoiler :

Harbor in 8 Turns even running 6 Artists 80/(5 base +100% Expansionist)
no need to chop (soon or later Gandhi/Mansa/Zara will gift Scientific Method, Forest = 2)

Then (with Harbor) 13
with +10 not too long to Population 13 (+4 Population)
and working Coast Tiles growing, which is pretty good for Culture.

At size 13 (4 more Coast tiles worked):
+(12 +150% from FreeSpeech, Cathedral) = +30/Turn

+1/+2 from 2 Mercantilism (+50%) Trade Routes (+150%)

So yes, it is worth it.

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Chichen Itza.

Spoiler :

Harbor in 4 Turns even running 4 Artists 80/(10 base +100% Expansionist)

Then (with Harbor) 10
with +6 not too long to Population 10 (+4Population)
and working Coast Maoi Tiles growing, which is pretty good for Culture.

At size 10 (4 more Coast Maoi Statue tiles worked):
+(12 +200% from FreeSpeech, 2Cathedrals) + 4 from = +40/Turn

+1/+2 from 2 Mercantilism (+50%) Trade Routes (+200%)

So yes, it is worth it.

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Uxmal.

Spoiler :

This one doesn't have any more 2 tiles, so also if under the cap it can't grow keeping the same number of Artist and not starving.

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My doubt is about when I'll Defy! the UN Resolutions:

• Emancipation
• Free Religion
• Environmentalism

Murphy's Law applies here, they are going to be the first 3 Votes.
Universal Suffrage I can give up on it, but losing the Representation bonus.

Anyways, giving up on Universal Suffrage, how much UnHappiness will that be? I guess about +15
Adding to this the "normal" Emancipation penalty, around +12 maybe more
Total = likely +25/+30 or more, + City Population.

This is the reason I'm doubtful about growing the Population.

You are correct on the Harbors. I'm positive now on building the Harbors in any case: it is worth it anyways, since I could sell unused resources for to Civilizations that doesn't have them and/or once Sushi and/or Cereal are founded.

Any other Comment is of course very welcome, I'm not playing this end-game for now, I need to have clear in my mind what's the best chance to win.

Greetings,
yatta.

 

[Edzako]

Wanted to do some agressive AI stomping, but after scouting changed my mind and built TGL as we had plenty of poor coastal land. I have 7 cities(split 3 place), place for one more and I think I'll take one barbarian cities too.

Save game and some screenshots in attachments.

 

[obsolete]

I quit!

I tried this map 3 times and tot crushed.

1 failed cultural win
2 spankings. I just could not outproduce the AI even though I was preparing for war..

Not immortal level yet..

Remember, quitters never win!

I did a quick run through this map 4 times now, 3 dominations and 1 space race.

Two were deity where one I targeted Mr. Pink first, the other I targeted Mr. Green first.

The Immortal games were more of a benchmark where I duplicated the targets.

I have no idea why anyone who can think of this game coherently would try to go for a cultural win, it just doesn't make sense. You need to re-think the basics here and plan something to take advantage of your terrain/leaders.

 

[yatta77]

I have no idea why anyone who can think of this game coherently would try to go for a cultural win, it just doesn't make sense. You need to re-think the basics here and plan something to take advantage of your terrain/leaders.

Coach. I speak only for myself here.

This is the fourth game ever I'm playing on Immortal.

• First was the #53, I went the aggressive way, and I wasn't able to. Nihil said I didn't do bad and I was unlucky, but I think I was just not in the Immortal timings. I mean, the AI was settling back faster than I was conquering and healing.
• Second was the #54, and I wanted to win by Space Race, but I messed up in the beginning so I targeted an easier (at least for me) Cultural victory, which I achieved, at least to feel a bit more comfortable: I mean don't feel myself like the guy comes in the IU without ever playing on Immortal before just to be defeated twice in 2 games.
• Third was the #55, and wanted to win by Space Race and I missed it by just one turn. I think that was the game I play the best, but a later distract playing let the AI fool me
• Then I played an aggressive Deity Game (the Keshik one you played as well) to practice in timing my war campaigns on higher levels; on Emperor it would be a Conquest I believe, on Deity you remember how it ended up: I missed (by one city) conquering even a single AI and I was late by at least 20 turns compared to your examples (by the way, IF/WHEN you have some time, some write up on that game would still really welcome ).
• Fourth Immortal is this one. No shame about it, of course, but again, I'm under 50% victories (1W,2L) and I don't really like it. I wanted to go for Space again to get that victory I missed so closely the earlier game. I didn't like the leader too much (I'm sorry with all the Pacal fans), and the map looked too dry to me to be called good, then I stupidly lost my "getting some space" city to Barbarians after few turns with the result that I was closed up in a little land with just my capital. I went Cultural to don't give up.

I actually do feel a bit sorry for coming in here and playing twice in game #54 and game #56 the same exact game, but this is all what I could do this time (with my skills) to fight to win, so I don't blame myself too much for it. It is not my fault if Civ IV victory is a bit easier (for me) after all. In game #55, no matter that, I risked and tried for Space. Here, without targeting a Victory, I could as well give up after losing that city.

I'll try a space race, or a conquest, later in another game, with a better map, a better leader, a better start, when I feel more confident and probably with better knowledge from reading/watching other (better) player reports.

I mean, I'll never win by domination, of course, I don't have the skills to do that; but don't worry, you'll see some conquest and space ship victories from me in future here (or I'll just quit competing on Immortal if I realize I really don't have the skills to).

Thanks for all the advices so far by the way.

Greetings,
yatta.

 

[lymond]

good to see obs chiming in a lot recently with constructive advice

 

[ben-jammin]

Remember, quitters never win!

I did a quick run through this map 4 times now, 3 dominations and 1 space race.

Two were deity where one I targeted Mr. Pink first, the other I targeted Mr. Green first.

The Immortal games were more of a benchmark where I duplicated the targets.

I have no idea why anyone who can think of this game coherently would try to go for a cultural win, it just doesn't make sense. You need to re-think the basics here and plan something to take advantage of your terrain/leaders.

One type of win is as good as another for someone who doesnt find the difficulty level easy, is it not? Cultural may not leverage the leader but it's not entirely inappropriate considering how easy it is to avoid war on the map. It's certainly no less appropriate than space race, possibly quicker judging from yatta's game with only three cities and an unfortunately placed capital.

 

[west45]

this is going to be a long game, if it isn't already lost
1822 AD

Spoiler :

5 cities settled, some infra in, teching up for now. Tech pace has been pretty quick, mansa mansa already has paper while some of these guys lack civil service.
Still don't have buddhism.. built shwedragon paya in cow city for culture but ended up in FR for a very long time.




Pretty early lib for immortal. I did end up builing taj to near completion without marble, but lost it by 1 turn (4 pop whip included). Ga would have been great, but that failgold did allow me to upgrade all my cuirs. After reading that last line, try to imagine thousands of slaves constructing a taj mahal and then it disappears as they apply the finishing touches. yea...




The one good thing about this map - lots of wars that don't involve me. I've been selling backwards brennus alot of techs for gold too.



about to declare




techs




ghandi almost dead. I'll take peace if I can get a tech, and then finish him off. 1 city ghandi is useless, with all the motherland unhappy (im not in emancipation and dont plan to also).




Started stealing techs from zara, many spies were lost for this cause. Ended up with -8 for caught spies, this might be a problem later on. Ended up trading alot with mansa, I'm surprised he wasn't trading much with zara.

Steel, Economics, Corporation, Assembly Line, Railroad, Combustion, Industrialism, Medicine, Plastics





Zara with 2 vassals, where have I seen this before?



Charlemagne has already built manhattan and is close to building parts



Internet+GA starting



Pretty late oxford...



stupid un



Internet is in!



welp

 

[west45]

to the end

Spoiler :

I've been playing emperor lately so I think I might have underestimated the AI slightly. Lesson learned for next time...

Of course he had a ton more units than I knew about. The wheat city had half a dozen paratroops capture it!