Immortal+ worker steal

[oranje willem]

Do you consider stealing a worker in the first 20 turns cheating? I've done it sometimes and usually the AI you steal from will make peace for nothing before any attacks occur. Not only is your start a lot quicker, the AI is gimped so hard you can take his land very easily. The only downside is -3 diplomacy, but you probably won't let him live for long anyway.

I decided not to do it anymore because it almost feels like going a level down in difficulty, what is your thoughts about it?

 

[EsaKo]

Acceptable if you ask me. Most difficulty level favour the AI because it is inherently stupider than human players. You don't have to be stupid - you have to exploit it's mistakes! If you lower yourself to the same level intellectually, you'll lose.

 

[Bostock]

I'm more worried about "you declared war on our friend" tipping the next neighbor over out of Friendly/into Annoyed than about the penalty from the country attacked.

I'm also a little worried about the extra burst of archer builds this spurs... I guess it's acceptable if your final attack will come after enough turns that their slower development hurts more than the extra military.

All in all I don't do it much... probably not as much as I should.

 

[Dumanios]

I should do this more often.

 

[Monsterzuma]

Not cheating, but most of the time it's simply not worth the risk and/or the hassle.

Every now and then, your attacking warrior instantly gets swallowed up by an archer the turn after stealing the worker. That means you ruined your diplomatic situation, may be dealing with an early attack and have nothing to show for it.

 

[oranje willem]

Not cheating, but most of the time it's simply not worth the risk and/or the hassle.

Every now and then, your attacking warrior instantly gets swallowed up by an archer the turn after stealing the worker. That means you ruined your diplomatic situation, may be dealing with an early attack and have nothing to show for it.

Strangely they rarely attack my warrior right after stealing the worker, but if I let my warrior stay in his lands to pillage they will kill it.

 

[oranje willem]

I'm more worried about "you declared war on our friend" tipping the next neighbor over out of Friendly/into Annoyed than about the penalty from the country attacked.

Hm.. ok this is probably the biggest downside, but then again it will be so early in the game that it's not likely he had many friends and it's only -1.

 

[kossin]

It's only 'cheating' if that's the only way you can win at Imm+. Otherwise, it's a nice tool to use.

 

[Ambro]

It's only 'cheating' if that's the only way you can win at Imm+. Otherwise, it's a nice tool to use.

I'm with this, as long as it's not a crutch to play the game it's just another instance where judgement on taking advantage of opportunities is required. That said I've only done it once myself but I'm always cautious with the AI at the start of the game.

 

[Kawalimus]

Nothing cheating about it. If you can make the strategy work, good for you. That's like saying being able to do something better than the AI is cheating, or a crutch.

Like "Is building more units at a faster rate than the AI on higher difficulties a cheat?"

I asked if building the GW on no espionage mode was cheating, not realizing how broken the entire espionage system was when turned off. So I turned it back on because of what it did to the game, I didn't like being able to have 'clean' GP points and espionage producing culture. But if it's on, it's not cheating because that's just what happens to the game.

If you find it cheap to steal a worker early, then don't do it. Other than that it's just as much a part of the game as another. It's not like there's no risk involved.

 

[shyuhe]

It's only 'cheating' if that's the only way you can win at Imm+. Otherwise, it's a nice tool to use.

I actually think it's a bad habit to learn, as it's significantly harder (and riskier) to worker steal on deity. If you're using it as a crutch on immortal, you'll probably end up having to unlearn the habit to move up.

 

[Orzio]

I actually think it's a bad habit to learn, as it's significantly harder (and riskier) to worker steal on deity. If you're using it as a crutch on immortal, you'll probably end up having to unlearn the habit to move up.

Than again doing things at lower level that might not work on higher levels arent all that bad since the result is you learn more about the game and how different things work. Getting tons of religions and making a huge religous empire might not really work on empeor+ while it does on noble. But doing it on noble allows you to learn more about how religion works with will help you later as you move up in level.

 

[Iranon]

Stealing workers (possibly repeatedly).
Rushing.
Choking/pillaging (creates a a victim for the warmongers. Ideally a PRO civ since those won't go down too easily).
Letting an AI war ally do your work for you (mopping up the cities before they fall, works well in the Medieval age since capturing a city usually takes several turns for the AI)
Making AI bonuses work for you (vassals/colonies)
Rendering AI bonuses irrelevant by victory type (straight dash to the Apostolic Palace)
Rendering AI bonuses irrelevant by tactics (AI production bonuses don't count if they suicide all units or remain in the field toasting marshmallows until the war is over).
Easily preventing victories (nuke and conquer capital, raze cultural city)

Many things break the usual balance, I still consider them legitimate parts of the game. I will usually avoid streamlined Apostolic Palace victories (being the undisputed head of a mostly insignificant religion doesn't really feel like a win to me) but the others are fair game.

 

[bestsss]

shyuhe,
If I am to rush I'd worker steal (provided I have an opportunity) regardless the difficulty.

 

[kosiosko 1]

I haven't done it , does barb worker count? is it cheating- not if you would happily do it on say-- turn 63 to chop forests to complete Pyrimids, Would that feel like cheating ?

 

[Bibor]

You want to cheat? Check "Raging barbarians", pick an industrous civ and chop the GW

EDIT: Alternative, set "Terra", usually gives lots of free space between civs for barbs to spawn.

 

[Udey1]

I actually think it's a bad habit to learn, as it's significantly harder (and riskier) to worker steal on deity. If you're using it as a crutch on immortal, you'll probably end up having to unlearn the habit to move up.

Agreed.

@bestsss

I believe the worker steal we are talking about is the initial scouting warrior stealing the worker, not a full blown rush later in the game.

If you wanna do it on deity your best chance is W2 warrior stealing barb workers in a jungle. Not saying you could NEVER do it to a deity AI, but it will blow up in your face more often than pay off IMHO.

 

[kosiosko 1]

You want to cheat? Check "Raging barbarians", pick an industrous civ and chop the GW

EDIT: Alternative, set "Terra", usually gives lots of free space between civs for barbs to spawn.

Isn,t that why they built the REAL great Wall

 

[bestsss]

Agreed.

@bestsss

I believe the worker steal we are talking about is the initial scouting warrior stealing the worker, not a full blown rush later in the game.

Exactly. I meant that: deity rushes are not exactly often, so if the time is right for a rush (resource in the capital, good UU) I'd not hesitate to come up w/ a worker home and speed up the rush. Let 'em come w/ their powerful archers.

 

[Bibor]

Isn,t that why they built the REAL great Wall

'lemme quote Patton again: Fixed fortifications are a monument to human stupidity. Speaking of which, Mongol khans were ruling over large chunks of China for quite some time.