Imperium Off Topicum - The Enlightenment

[mechaerik]

We suggest the....Europeans stay out of the affairs of the nations that make up the Americas. We won't kowtow to European Imperialists like the Brazilians will. We don't need to kowtow either. The Pirates will have Peru and the territory they already have.

The Monroe Doctrine has gone into effect+Roosevelt Corollary. Not only will the Europeans remain out of the New World, Latin America is part of our Sphere of Influence.

Sweden does not wish for Empire. But we despise the fact that you decry our support for a fellow nation-state against the forces of anarchy as "imperialism", particularly when you then turn around and exercise your own brand of imperialism, establishing an American hegemony over two continents. Hypocrisy at its finest.

 

[Double A]

Two VERY CLOSE continents.

 

[Dem Taqat]

Britain is confused. Brazil has not 'kowtowed' to anybody. In fact I don't think we even Have a trade agreement. (Which we shall take steps to rectfiy very soon.) Our Problem is not that we lack land in the America's.

Our Complaint is that America has turned it's back on it's ally, on Order and Justice and Honour, to retain land which doesn't rightfully belong to them. For 2 Provinces you have cast Brazil to the Winds, and for 2 provinces you will aid the extermination of an entire Nation. It is like bullying a child, simply to get a share of his money. It is an affront to all standerds of Decency, and It is for this reason that we are disgusted.

We supported Brazil, our people fought and died for Brazil, you merely used them. Brazil was your excuse, to gain territory you coveted. You claim to descry Imperialism, and yet at the same time you engage in imperialism, at the expense of many, many others. This is hipocrisy of the worst Kind, and all the World should be disgusted by it. What was once touted as the land of the Free is now the land of Hipocritical Imperialists, and we feel compelled to say so.

Britain is disgusted, and appalled, by America's Actions.

On a more positive note, we offer to Brazil a trade agreement, in recognition of our Fight together.

DT
Appalled

 

[Sonereal]

Sweden does not wish for Empire. But we despise the fact that you decry our support for a fellow nation-state against the forces of anarchy as "imperialism", particularly when you then turn around and exercise your own brand of imperialism, establishing an American hegemony over two continents. Hypocrisy at its finest.

While the Europeans were busy fighting for Europe, we expanded aggressively across North America. In as little as three years, we had established control over California, Quebec, and Northern Mexico. The Swedes surely have more important things to worry about than the expansion of a peaceful Empire in the Americas.

Our Complaint is that America has turned it's back on it's ally, on Order and Justice and Honour, to retain land which doesn't rightfully belong to them. For 2 Provinces you have cast Brazil to the Winds, and for 2 provinces you will aid the extermination of an entire Nation. It is like bullying a child, simply to get a share of his money. It is an affront to all standerds of Decency, and It is for this reason that we are disgusted.

It's called Realpolitik.

We supported Brazil, our people fought and died for Brazil, you merely used them. Brazil was your excuse, to gain territory you coveted. You claim to descry Imperialism, and yet at the same time you engage in imperialism, at the expense of many, many others. This is hipocrisy of the worst Kind, and all the World should be disgusted by it. What was once touted as the land of the Free is now the land of Hipocritical Imperialists, and we feel compelled to say so.

We are establishing order across the Americas. Some had to die but they died in the name of order and the peace that will soon come to the Americas. The Brazilians, the Pirates, and us Americans aren't like the petty nations of the Old World that fight to fight. As soon as the Brazilians establish themselves in the southern half of the continent, the Pirates in the Caribbean and norther South America, and us in North and Central America, war will never reach the New World ever again.

Because we have created Order. Order that will last. With our deal, the Pirates win. The Brazilians get to survive. Everyone is happy. The British and Swedes simply wish to wipe a nation off the map.

 

[Graceheart the Leopard]

I hereby accept the Trade Agreement from Britain. Also, you're a traitor and only using the pretence of peace in the Americas you get some land in Central America.

 

[Dem Taqat]

Peace? You say you have expanded Peacefully? Then why is it, that every territory you own, YOU CONQUERED? You have not 'Expanded Peacefully' across the continent, you have slaughtered your way across it! Even now, at this very moment, You are Invading and Occupying former Annonystan. This is not peace. THIS IS YET MORE HIPOCRISY!!!

The Brazilians get to survive. Everyone is happy.

Excuse Me? Do you think the dieing are happy? DO you think those who have lost freinds and family in this war are happy? Do you think anybody involved in the most devastating war in recent History is Happy? This is nonsense.

And 'Brazil Survives' you say? Tell me, do you think they will survive, when they cannot make peace? The Pirates have refused to negotiate with them, how are they supposed to survive now? And would their mere survival be acceptable? By this logic you shouldn't have wanted the Provinces for which you now spend thousands of lives, because you didn't need them to 'survive.' Tell me, does ekeing out a scarce living in hostile lands, remebering every day a time you had more of everything sound like a good life? Do you think mere survival is the only thing Brazil seeks? What of Safety? Security? Happiness? Don't you think Brazil would Want these things as well.

And all this in the name of order. Order. And Peace. YOU CLAIM TO EMBRACE ORDER AND PEACE? YOU, who would abandon an entire nation too death? An entire Continent to chaos? THIS IS ORDER AND PEACE? THAT CLAIM IS FALSE!!!

Realpolitik. Its so conveinient. How much can this word Rationalize? Can it rationalize Sacraficing Brazil? Can it Rationalize thousands of Deaths? Can Politics explain the abandoning of your Ideals, all that once made you great?

It's not that you cause so many deaths, so much suffering, that bothers me so much as this. A one word Explanation. You have caused thousands of deaths, the suffering of MILLIONS! AND YOU DON'T EVEN CARE!!! THIS IS WHY WE ARE ANGRY!!! FOR 2 PROVINCES YOU HAVE ABANDONED EVERYTHING! AND YOU DON'T EVEN CARE!!! YOUR ACTIONS LEAD DIRECTLY TO CHAOS! TO DEATH! AND YOU CLAIM TO BE PEACEFUL? AND YOU DON'T EVEN CARE!!!

You horrify us.

DT
Appalled

 

[Double A]

BOLD, ITALICIZED, UNDERLINED, SIZE 4, AND CAPS?

I think he's angry.

 

[Sonereal]

I hereby accept the Trade Agreement from Britain. Also, you're a traitor and only using the pretence of peace in the Americas you get some land in Central America.

*Yawn*

The Ends Will Justify the Means.

Peace? You say you have expanded Peacefully? Then why is it, that every territory you own, YOU CONQUERED? You have not 'Expanded Peacefully' across the continent, you have slaughtered your way across it! Even now, at this very moment, You are Invading and Occupying former Annonystan. This is not peace. THIS IS YET MORE HIPOCRISY!!!

Unless you consider the Sioux and Apaches civilized, then we barely killed anyone on our way up until Central America. Again, some died but it's mostly been peace. It's all for the Greatest of Good.

Excuse Me? Do you think the dieing are happy? DO you think those who have lost freinds and family in this war are happy? Do you think anybody involved in the most devastating war in recent History is Happy? This is nonsense.

Then obliged me. End the war by accepting what's now law in South America. Do this and no more will die and peace will reign for a century.

And 'Brazil Survives' you say? Tell me, do you think they will survive, when they cannot make peace? The Pirates have refused to negotiate with them, how are they supposed to survive now? And would their mere survival be acceptable? By this logic you shouldn't have wanted the Provinces for which you now spend thousands of lives, because you didn't need them to 'survive.' Tell me, does ekeing out a scarce living in hostile lands, remebering every day a time you had more of everything sound like a good life? Do you think mere survival is the only thing Brazil seeks? What of Safety? Security? Happiness? Don't you think Brazil would Want these things as well.

The Pirates aren't going to neogotiate anything short of Peru, Northern Southern America, etc. If they choose to keep heading south, then we will handle them like we did so effortlessly a few months ago. They'll have security. They will have safety. Because we will enforce both once they Brazil accepts the Pirates need Peru. After all, the Pirates need to survive as well, don't they?

And all this in the name of order. Order. And Peace. YOU CLAIM TO EMBRACE ORDER AND PEACE? YOU, who would abandon an entire nation too death? An entire Continent to chaos? THIS IS ORDER AND PEACE? THAT CLAIM IS FALSE!!!

We're the American Republic. We're the greatest Empire the world has seensince the days of Rome and the Mongolians. We conquered North and Central America in only four years. We're about to create a new order in South America. A few have died. By the Pirates and Brazilians will survive as nations, rest assured.

Realpolitik. Its so conveinient. How much can this word Rationalize? Can it rationalize Sacraficing Brazil? Can it Rationalize thousands of Deaths? Can Politics explain the abandoning of your Ideals, all that once made you great?

Survival of the fittest. But don't worry, the Pirates know they're not allowed to take all of Brazil. However, they're getting Peru. After that, there'll be peace which we broker ourselves and the British can go back on their boats and back to London where I'm sure the idealistic ideals of the lesser people are embraced. The Means don't justify the Ends. It's the other way around.

It's not that you cause so many deaths, so much suffering, that bothers me so much as this. A one word Explanation. You have caused thousands of deaths, the suffering of MILLIONS! AND YOU DON'T EVEN CARE!!! THIS IS WHY WE ARE ANGRY!!! FOR 2 PROVINCES YOU HAVE ABANDONED EVERYTHING! AND YOU DON'T EVEN CARE!!! YOUR ACTIONS LEAD DIRECTLY TO CHAOS! TO DEATH! AND YOU CLAIM TO BE PEACEFUL? AND YOU DON'T EVEN CARE!!!

A few thousand? A few million? All mere numbers to the voters in Philidelphia I daresay. And what are millions compared to the tens of millions or the hundreds of millions that will enjoy the peace this war will forge. The Order we're bringing.

We are the Hegemons of this New, Glorious World. The Eagle of Order has spread its wings and cast its shadow from Quebec to Panama. From California to Maine. From the Caribbean to the Falkland Islands. Order will come.

 

[Graceheart the Leopard]

Hah! Everyone is happy? Happy for the fact that we are still fighting a war over a territory that to our knowlege was not even in the Pirate SOI (Venezuala, Central America, South Mexico, the Caribbean islands, and the Southeastern United States), that one of our allies stabbed us in the back for "the Greater Good"? Yes, the people of Brazil are very happy. So happy in fact are the Portuguese, that mobs in Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paulo are burning effigies of Washington and Jefferson. Yes, we are happy that we were betrayed and abandoned by the Americans for the Greater Good of their own interests. Thank you for being so kind to Brazil.

 

[Dem Taqat]

Unless you consider the Sioux and Apaches civilized, then we barely killed anyone on our way up until Central America. Again, some died but it's mostly been peace. It's all for the Greatest of Good.

Let me get this straight. You are saying that because they had a different style of Civilization their pain doesn't matter? Because their culture is different killing them doesn't matter? They are still Human. Their pain means as much as anybody elses.

Then obliged me. End the war by accepting what's now law in South America. Do this and no more will die and peace will reign for a century.

Law in south America? South America is a battlefield. Its being torn apart by the war you continued for your own marginal gain. It is wracked by death, destruction and Chaos because of you, do you think this law, which no nation there follows, is being enfoorced? I do not.

The Pirates aren't going to neogotiate anything short of Peru, Northern Southern America, etc. If they choose to keep heading south, then we will handle them like we did so effortlessly a few months ago. They'll have security. They will have safety. Because we will enforce both once they Brazil accepts the Pirates need Peru. After all, the Pirates need to survive as well, don't they?

Then why not Negotiate for Peru? If your plans are being enforced as law there, surely it is simple to negotiate the surrender of peru to the Pirates. Maybe this isn't happening Because the People there don't accept your law. Surely the People should chose for themselves? As a republic, you should understand this better than we do. We are arguing your own morals at you, And you aren't listening!

Tell me, If Hindustan was to spilt your nation in half between you and the Pirates, would you listen?

We're the American Republic. We're the greatest Empire the world has seensince the days of Rome and the Mongolians. We conquered North and Central America in only four years. We're about to create a new order in South America. A few have died. By the Pirates and Brazilians will survive as nations, rest assured.

And how do you measure your Greatness? By Size maybe, but does that mean Greatness? Greatness is in morality, strength of character, a willingness to stand up for your beliefs. You show none of these things. Not only do you not stand up for your morals, you willingly abandon them. This makes your nation the Lowest Of The Low.

Survival of the fittest. But don't worry, the Pirates know they're not allowed to take all of Brazil. However, they're getting Peru. After that, there'll be peace which we broker ourselves and the British can go back on their boats and back to London where I'm sure the idealistic ideals of the lesser people are embraced. .

You don't seem to understand. There are no 'lesser People' That very statement is proof to the world that something is fundamentaly wrong with your nation. It is true that we embrace Ideals in London, indeed, in all the Empire. We stand up for, and fight for Ideals. This is why we are Great.

A few thousand? A few million? All mere numbers to the voters in Philidelphia I daresay. And what are millions compared to the tens of millions or the hundreds of millions that will enjoy the peace this war will forge. The Order we're bringing.

Admiting that you do not care does not make it any better. It merely proves once again that your claims of Greatness are fraudulent. Are the Voters making this decision? Or are their leaders? I'm sure the Private negotiations you held with the Pirates to betray your allies were wide open to the voters of Philadelphia.

And you claim many will enjoy the peace? How many Brazilians will enjoy it, do you think? Tens of millions? Or NONE? They will not be thankful for peace, they will be resentful that you, a foreign power, are dictating their fates to them. This action will not lead to peace in the Americas, It will only make things worse.

Your claims are Falsehood. Your Ideals are LIES.

We are disgusted.

DT
British

 

[Double A]

Last time I checked, Britain had conquered South Africa, France, Germany, Holland, Ireland, Greenland, Iceland, and quite a few Atlantic islands. Or do they not count because you and not America conquered them?

 

[Sonereal]

Hah! Everyone is happy? Happy for the fact that we are still fighting a war over a territory that to our knowlege was not even in the Pirate SOI (Venezuala, Central America, South Mexico, the Caribbean islands, and the Southeastern United States), that one of our allies stabbed us in the back for "the Greater Good"? Yes, the people of Brazil are very happy. So happy in fact are the Portuguese, that mobs in Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paulo are burning effigies of Washington and Jefferson. Yes, we are happy that we were betrayed and abandoned by the Americans for the Greater Good of their own interests. Thank you for being so kind to Brazil.

The alternative is pumping the Pirates with so much funding that even with the help of your overseas allies, Rio would be overrun in three years. In all honestly, managing one nation in the Americas is a lot easier than managing two but we felt as if Brazil, as a nation, should survive.

After all, what's wrong with this arrangement?

Let me get this straight. You are saying that because they had a different style of Civilization their pain doesn't matter? Because their culture is different killing them doesn't matter? They are still Human. Their pain means as much as anybody elses.

They weren't civilized. Civilized people have cities. They don't wander the plains like the people we found did. We did what any kind Christian should do. We came in, established order, brought in our culture in droves, sent their children to schools to facilitate their transition into American culture, and gave them citizenship. A few died but the rest will be happy in the long run.

Law in south America? South America is a battlefield. Its being torn apart by the war you continued for your own marginal gain. It is wracked by death, destruction and Chaos because of you, do you think this law, which no nation there follows, is being enfoorced? I do not.

*raises hands*

What can I say? The Pirates have accepted the New Order. They're only fighting because I told them that I'll support their right to Peru. The above map is what I want the final map of South America to look like.

Then why not Negotiate for Peru? If your plans are being enforced as law there, surely it is simple to negotiate the surrender of peru to the Pirates. Maybe this isn't happening Because the People there don't accept your law. Surely the People should chose for themselves? As a republic, you should understand this better than we do. We are arguing your own morals at you, And you aren't listening!

We blame the Brazilians mostly. All the Pirates want back is Peru. Now, if it seems like the Pirates misunderstood us, that's a problem assuredly but one that will be fixed in the coming years. After all, getting messages from Philadelphia to our embassy in Venezuela takes some time.

Tell me, If Hindustan was to spilt your nation in half between you and the Pirates, would you listen?

Of course not but we wouldn't let outselves be blindsided like that either.

There's the proposed map above. If the Brazilians accept, then I'll withdraw support from the Pirates and ask them to accept the deal. Is that ok, European?

And how do you measure your Greatness? By Size maybe, but does that mean Greatness? Greatness is in morality, strength of character, a willingness to stand up for your beliefs. You show none of these things. Not only do you not stand up for your morals, you willingly abandon them. This makes your nation the Lowest Of The Low.

People die. Nations fall. Time marches on. Doesn't it? Might makes right and since we're the "might" in this dispute, we're right. You can aid us in dealing with the Pirates and Brazilians and advise your puppet that accepting the above partition of South America is in everyone's best interest or we both can keep funding a war that'll eventually grind to a bloody halt.

You don't seem to understand. There are no 'lesser People' That very statement is proof to the world that something is fundamentaly wrong with your nation. It is true that we embrace Ideals in London, indeed, in all the Empire. We stand up for, and fight for Ideals. This is why we are Great.

We fight for ideals as well. Social Darwinism. Imperialism. Order. The Might of American Industry. We haven't subcumb to the idealistic flawed ideologies that have arisen in Europe since the dawn of the Age of Enlightenment.

Admiting that you do not care does not make it any better. It merely proves once again that your claims of Greatness are fraudulent. Are the Voters making this decision? Or are their leaders? I'm sure the Private negotiations you held with the Pirates to betray your allies were wide open to the voters of Philadelphia.

Voters in Philadelphia, Boston, New York, Savannah, Atlanta, Miami, Toronto, Salt Lake City, San Francisco, Mexico City, Chicago, Indianapolis, Nashville, Cincinnati, Detroit, Washington City, and Jefferson don't care about the petty in South America. They care about the rising standard of living. The way the economy is roaring due to growing demand for military equipment and new ships in shipyards. The farmers care about their goods being in such high demand. The miner cares about coming home with a pocket full of Greebacks because the iron mines are always busy and always employing. The uneducated cares about getting to travel across North America and Central America, seeing things no other group of people have ever seen such as the view of the Pacific from San Francisco. The educated cares about the demand for better weapons. Better cannons. They care about working for political think tanks.

The voter is happy and since the people of Brazil aren't voters, there's no doubt Jefferson and Washington will get their second term in 1729.

And you claim many will enjoy the peace? How many Brazilians will enjoy it, do you think? Tens of millions? Or NONE? They will not be thankful for peace, they will be resentful that you, a foreign power, are dictating their fates to them. This action will not lead to peace in the Americas, It will only make things worse.

If the Brazilians don't enjoy the peace and order we're creating in due time, then that is their problem. If they try to fight back against Order, we're sad to say that the world will have to hear the voices of a million Brazilians crying out only to be silenced at once.

After all, it's all for the Greater Good.

 

[Graceheart the Leopard]

I find it ironic that you are pushing for realpolitik and Social Darwinism (who is this Darwin that you speak of? Is he one of those American philosophers?) while also talking about peace and order.

And no: we shall not accept this order after you abandoned and betrayed us.

 

[Dem Taqat]

You can aid us in dealing with the Pirates and Brazilians and advise your puppet that accepting the above partition of South America is in everyone's best interest or we both can keep funding a war that'll eventually grind to a bloody halt.

Before I launch into a massive response post I want to adress this paragraph in particular. I am happy to put aside our differences and settle this dipute between the american nations, but I can hardly do that in a private talk between you and the Pirates.

Also I would like to point out that Brazil is far from a puppet. We didn't even acknowlage their existance before the War, we certainly didn't have strong enough relations for them to act as a puppet.

DT
British

Edit: @ double A- the difference is that we never claimed to be peaceful whilst we did it.

 

[Sonereal]

Then the Pirates can have all of South America. We don't mind.

 

[Sonereal]

Before I launch into a massive response post I want to adress this paragraph in particular. I am happy to put aside our differences and settle this dipute between the american nations, but I can hardly do that in a private talk between you and the Pirates.

Also I would like to point out that Brazil is far from a puppet. We didn't even acknowlage their existance before the War, we certainly didn't have strong enough relations for them to act as a puppet.

DT
British

Edit: @ double A- the difference is that we never claimed to be peaceful whilst we did it.

What do the Brazilians want exactly? They get half of South America. Anymore than half is unreasonable.

 

[Dem Taqat]

Then surely more than 1/2 of north america is unreasonable for you?

The pirates have lands in the caribbean as well, they do not need 1/2 of south america. We are willing to let the entire matter go, if you agree to let Brazil have their original claim in north Brazil as well. This is a fair Split.

DT
British

 

[Sonereal]

Then surely more than 1/2 of north america is unreasonable for you?

The pirates have lands in the caribbean as well, they do not need 1/2 of south america. We are willing to let the entire matter go, if you agree to let Brazil have their original claim in north Brazil as well. This is a fair Split.

DT
British

Doesn't the Caribbean Islands only count as one territory? That plus the three in South America sounds fair given that Brazil would have the one it owns now, the two to the south, and those islands in the Cape.

 

[Double A]

England could always give Brazil South Africa if they feel so bad for them.

 

[Dem Taqat]

I think the Islands off the Cape are part of the southernmost American territory. Yes the Caribbean is only one territory, but the pirates did begin a war of aggression. They have only themselves to blame if they come out worse off.

And Double A, Why would we do that? South Africa is hardly within Brazil's sphere of Influence. We just want them to keep their Homeland, rather than surrendering it to the Pirate Aggressors.

DT
British