Importance of white representation in fiction

[Akka]

It's strange how the same argument doesn't apply when a universe is inspired by non-Western cultures and ideas. The Wheel of Time, for example. Yet people complain about 'woke' casting because few of the main characters are fully white.

You're welcome to find any post where I don't use the same argument when it comes to non-Western settings (hint : you won't, in fact you'll find the opposite). You're also welcome to point any post where I complain about the Wheel of Time (hint : I never read it, I never watched it).

Though if we're talking about the strange inability to be consistent with an argument, it's funny how the "lack of diversity" is only ever leveled when whites are in the majority. You're welcome to point me where you protested that Bollywood was too brown-looking or chinese cinema was too yellow-looking. THAT part I actually pointed.

Again, the assumption seems to be that just because it's fantasy or it's made in the West, the default race of the actors should be white.

That's an assumption you completely invented to give yourself the high moral ground, but nobody supported that.
Maybe you should actually try to read and answer to what is actually written, rather than make up imaginary arguments in your head that just further your end.

I mean, if you quote me, I expect that the usual bullcrap you'll throw will at least be in answer to what I say. You didn't even pass this very low bar, instead just making some random accusations out of left field.

 

[Hygro]

Akka it’s okay you’re mad, you’re still wrong and having trouble with the logic.

I understand you

but you don’t understand me

 

[aelf]

You're welcome to find any post where I don't use the same argument when it comes to non-Western settings (hint : you won't, in fact you'll find the opposite). You're also welcome to point any post where I complain about the Wheel of Time (hint : I never read it, I never watched it).

I mean, if you quote me, I expect that the usual bullcrap you'll throw will at least be in answer to what I say. You didn't even pass this very low bar, instead just making some random accusations out of left field.

That's an assumption you completely invented to give yourself the high moral ground, but nobody supported that.
Maybe you should actually try to read and answer to what is actually written, rather than make up imaginary arguments in your head that just further your end.

I'm not talking about you in particular. I thought that would be quite obvious from the phrasing. This is the discussion topic, if you've noticed, and this isn't just an argument between specific individuals. Talking only about what people on CFC believe gets boring after a while.

Though, when it comes to your beliefs, you haven't elaborated on why the obvious goal of an adaptation is to be as close to the original as possible. So do you want to talk about what you actually believe or not?

Though if we're talking about the strange inability to be consistent with an argument, it's funny how the "lack of diversity" is only ever leveled when whites are in the majority. You're welcome to point me where you protested that Bollywood was too brown-looking or chinese cinema was too yellow-looking. THAT part I actually pointed.

The answer is in Angst's post here:

For OP, I believe all representation has value, but white representation is so saturated it's not really needed at this point. White people have an abundance of mainstream material to engage with easily. There's so much being produced that they'll never even get to experience all of it, no matter how hard they try. So I don't have much sympathy with angry white men feeling robbed over stuff like this. Let's say they remake the Lord of the Rings and insert more nonwhite characters on the side of Good. There's still one of the largest Hollywood productions in the world, a good production even, where they get to see European cavalry murdering monsters of the Orient heroically.

Besides, there's quite a lot of diversity in Asian cinema these days, more than you seem to give it credit for. Remember Squid Game? That's just one well-known example. Sure, representations of other people are often not great or nuanced in Asian cultural products, but I'll be the first to admit that we're comparatively backward in this part of the world and need to catch up.

 

[Yeekim]

For OP, I believe all representation has value, but white representation is so saturated it's not really needed at this point. White people have an abundance of mainstream material to engage with easily. There's so much being produced that they'll never even get to experience all of it, no matter how hard they try.

I would be very happy to watch something different. For instance, I really liked "Moana" - not just because the gorgeous animation and good music, but because it was not yet another fairy-tale in tired, vaguely medieval-Europe themed setting done to death.

Instead of changing Middle-Earth, show us Earthsea (where most people were black/briwn as per source material). Instead of telling a story set in medieval France, tell a story set in medieval Mali, or Great Zimbabwe, or Inca Empire!

 

[Farm Boy]

Oh, you're talking in person when it happens.

Yup. The life, as it were, as it lives.

Seems the reasons for that are pretty indifferent to the purchase of society's whims.

 

[Akka]

Akka it’s okay you’re mad, you’re still wrong and having trouble with the logic.

I understand you

but you don’t understand me

Sorry, what do you understand ? Because so far you seem to just try to overcompensate for some perceived "childish" (emphasis yours) feelings you had previously, and assuming that anyone not agreeing share them. Because somehow you manage to transform "I want the actor to look like the character" into "scratching some fragile whiteness itch", which is... well, downright dumb. I'm still not sure if you're trolling or being serious.

I'm not talking about you in particular. I thought that would be quite obvious from the phrasing.

No it isn't, especially when you quote me twice and a lot of assumptions.

Though, when it comes to your beliefs, you haven't elaborated on why the obvious goal of an adaptation is to be as close to the original as possible. So do you want to talk about what you actually believe or not?

=>

Why bother making an adaptation if it's not to have it faithful ? Just make a different story then.
I understand "redoing it with a twist", as said before, but beyond that ? The main (artistic) point of an adaptation is to change medium, not change story. That's why we see movies about books, not books rewritten.

Dunno, seems pretty clear to me.

The answer is in Angst's post here:

Except this answer takes the premises that "representation" has legitimacy to take precedence over the content adapted due to political reason as true, when the complaints about "woke casting" are precisely that this premise is false.

Besides, there's quite a lot of diversity in Asian cinema these days, more than you seem to give it credit for. Remember Squid Game? That's just one well-known example. Sure, representations of other people are often not great or nuanced in Asian cultural products, but I'll be the first to admit that we're comparatively backward in this part of the world and need to catch up.

And yet you're not here complaining about lack of diversity in "asian" cinema, but complaining about lack of diversity in an already more-diverse western one. The irony is not lost on me.

I don't know why it's so hard for people to understand "leave the f***ing story alone" and "fit the settings". A story about the Three Kingdoms ? Chinese-looking guys. A story about Vikings ? White-looking guys. A story in the 1001 Nights ? Arab/Iranian-looking guys. A story in a multicultural place ? Plenty-of-races-looking guys. Should be obvious and not needing to even be said.
Though maybe they are so used to inject their political views everywhere, they can't imagine anyone not doing the same ?

 

[aelf]

Dunno, seems pretty clear to me.

Except this answer takes the premises that "representation" has legitimacy to take precedence over the content adapted due to political reason as true, when the complaints about "woke casting" are precisely that this premise is false.

I don't know why it's so hard for people to understand "leave the f***ing story alone" and "fit the settings". A story about the Three Kingdoms ? Chinese-looking guys. A story about Vikings ? White-looking guys. A story in the 1001 Nights ? Arab/Iranian-looking guys. A story in a multicultural place ? Plenty-of-races-looking guys. Should be obvious and not needing to even be said.
Though maybe they are so used to inject their political views everywhere, they can't imagine anyone not doing the same ?

Not sure what exactly you deem as obvious here.

Let's try to dig deeper. Do you believe that works of art should not be political? If you don't, what's the issue with a show having the political agenda of representation?

And yet you're not here complaining about lack of diversity in "asian" cinema, but complaining about lack of diversity in an already more-diverse western one. The irony is not lost on me.

And how would that be productive? Most of you here are not in Asia.

If you think I don't have a problem with conservatism in Asia, boy, you haven't been paying attention.

 

[Akka]

Let's try to dig deeper. Do you believe that works of art should not be political? If you don't, what's the issue with a show having the political agenda of representation?

Obviously a work of art can be political. Lots of them are. Pamphlets are based on it. I don't mind that works of art can be political. What I mind is when taking an existing work and inserting new politics in it. If you (general "you") have a message to convey, then do it with your own work, don't piggyback what someone else created just to get a platform.

Someone makes a serie about inclusion and diversity and whatever ? Fine, do it. I mean, I'm probably not be interested in it because I'm just tired of the subject, but at worst I'll just say "oh gawd, another one", roll my eyes and go my way. Nobody said that a work of art has to please everybody.
But don't twist and bend something which already exists (and which has often its own message).

Oh and also, adding flaws/stupid things because they are politically motivated is annoying. If you add politically motivated points, at least insert them intelligently. For example, I like Horizon Zero Dawn very much, but having a tribe which has lived secluded for 700 years and has white, asian and black people neatly recognizable just because "inclusion" is just ridiculous. They should have blend together into some sort of brown average five centuries ago.
And yes there is stupid things motivated by gameplay or bad design or lazyness. I don't like them either, so it's not like I ignore them. But it's not as annoying as stupid things that are put there because they try to preach and look stupid doing so.

And how would that be productive? Most of you here are not in Asia.

You aren't in the West and you complain about what is produced in the West, I don't really see it as productive either. Do I whine about how anime characters are 99 % japanese ?

 

[Senethro]

An adaptation is a new performance and that new performance takes place in the present time and culture.

Both changes and non-changes are statements. There is no neutral or NULL culture setting within which a story can be told unchanged eternally.

 

[Hygro]

The best telling of 12th century Verona involved automobiles and automatic guns.

 

[Senethro]

The best telling of 12th century Verona involved automobiles and automatic guns.

The conservation of the dialogue was most definitely a statement!

 

[Hygro]

The conservation of the dialogue was most definitely a statement!

Fetch me my long sword!

 

[aelf]

Obviously a work of art can be political. Lots of them are. Pamphlets are based on it. I don't mind that works of art can be political. What I mind is when taking an existing work and inserting new politics in it. If you (general "you") have a message to convey, then do it with your own work, don't piggyback what someone else created just to get a platform.

Someone makes a serie about inclusion and diversity and whatever ? Fine, do it. I mean, I'm probably not be interested in it because I'm just tired of the subject, but at worst I'll just say "oh gawd, another one", roll my eyes and go my way. Nobody said that a work of art has to please everybody.
But don't twist and bend something which already exists (and which has often its own message).

Could it not be argued that an adaptation is a new piece of work? You're probably already going to have to get creative in some ways. If the original creator disagrees with the change in direction, you might have a more legitimate claim that it's piggybacking unethically on their work. But if the creator gives it their blessing, then I can't imagine why it'd be a problem. It's not your work so you don't really have a say in it.

Oh and also, adding flaws/stupid things because they are politically motivated is annoying. If you add politically motivated points, at least insert them intelligently. For example, I like Horizon Zero Dawn very much, but having a tribe which has lived secluded for 700 years and has white, asian and black people neatly recognizable just because "inclusion" is just ridiculous. They should have blend together into some sort of brown average five centuries ago

Eh... I will acknowledge that as a valid complaint. Games also don't have concerns with employment to deal with.

You aren't in the West and you complain about what is produced in the West, I don't really see it as productive either. Do I whine about how anime characters are 99 % japanese ?

Erm, Western popular culture is still dominant. I watch lots of media from the West. So why can't it be a productive conversation? It just sounds like you're sour about white people being the topic here.

 

[Farm Boy]

The best telling of 12th century Verona involved automobiles and automatic guns.

Ehhh.

 

[Ajidica]

"I prefer characters broadly look in adaptations as described by the author."
"Racist."

It goes both ways, if a character is described as being from China and looking Chinese, perhaps Idris Elba might not be good to play them.

 

[aelf]

Well, Chinese characters not being played by Chinese actors is common and is still going on.

Are you really going to draw the line at the colour of skin?

 

[Senethro]

Eh... I will acknowledge that as a valid complaint.

I don't. Because Akka is implying that he (or his views) have special authority/weight over others to determine what is apolitical/neutral and what is a politically motivated point.

 

[aelf]

I don't. Because Akka is implying that he (or his views) have special authority/weight over others to determine what is apolitical/neutral and what is a politically motivated point.

I can understand your point as well. Still, this is miles away from people complaining about why they can't have all white actors in a fantasy village on screen.

 

[Birdjaguar]

https://www.dearwhiteparents.guide

 

[Ajidica]

Well, Chinese characters not being played by Chinese actors is common and is still going on.

Are you really going to draw the line at the colour of skin?

So where do you draw the line in who is fit for what roles? I think we can all agree that, however skilled an actor he is, Idris Elba would not be a good fit to play the Emperor in a film set in fantasy China. As much as I liked Simu Liu in the Shang-Li film, he isn't a good fit for the lead role in a Braveheart remake.