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Improvement Balancing

Discussion in 'Rise of Mankind: A New Dawn' started by Vokarya, Feb 28, 2015.

  1. Vokarya

    Vokarya Chieftain

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    Here is what I am looking at for Camps. For reference, this is my target yield curve (based on the curve for Farms built on a food resource).
    Column 1
    Ancient 2.5
    Classical 2.5
    Medieval 3.5
    Renaissance 3.5
    Industrial 4.5
    Modern 6
    Transhuman 9


    To start, Ivory Camps and Fur Camps are balanced. Ivory gives +1F/+1P/+1C, while Fur gives +1P/+3C. Since 1F = 2C, this is fair. However, Deer is a little bit stronger than it should be. Deer gives +2F/+1P/+1 Health. If we take out the +1P, then Deer is balanced against the other two. All three Camps would then net +2.5 points of yield.

    Camps get +1 commerce at each of Matchlock and Repeating Weapons, and +2 food with Artificial Evolution. So Camp starts to fall behind once most improvements get a boost from either Agricultural Tools or Crop Rotation.

    I think a good first step would be +1 food with Feudalism. I would like to spread these bonuses out somewhat if I can. This makes Medieval Camps worth +3.5 yield (in line with Farms), Renaissance +4 (a touch better), and Industrial +4.5 (still in line). The second step would be to add +1F and +1C with Ecology. This brings the Modern yield up to +6. Finally, add +1P from Artificial Evolution as well as the +2F. That is a total of +9, exactly where it should be.

    I considered having Camps upgrade to Forest Preserve, but there is a small problem in that Ivory can appear on Flood Plain tiles as well as Jungle. If I made Camp upgrade to Forest Preserve, then you would have Forest Preserves on tiles without Forests. Even setting <bBonusMakesValid> to 0 doesn't stop an improvement from upgrading. <bBonusMakesValid> is used to limit certain improvements to resource tiles only and allow improvements on tiles that are not normally allowed (such as Mines on bonus squares wherever they are). I really don't want to change the name of Forest Preserve. Furthermore, while there is a Plant Forest improvement, the creation of the Forest is actually tied to the Build Forest action, not the improvement.
     
  2. Vokarya

    Vokarya Chieftain

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    I did the number crunching for Pastures, to get them in line with the rest of the bonus improvements.

    The first thing I noticed is that Pastures also start out better than a lot of other improvements. Cow and Sheep give +2F/+1P/+1C and +1 health. Pig gives +2F/+1C and +1 health. Horse gives +2P/+2C. For Cow and Sheep, that is equivalent to +4 yield, which is way more than other Ancient Era improvements on bonus tiles.

    For a start, let's drop the +1 production from Cow and Sheep. They still produce +2 food and +1 commerce, and +1 health from the resource. That's +1 commerce over any bonus Farm with Irrigation.

    On the other hand, Pastures then need to get curve bonuses the way I've given all other improvements.

    So some changes: +1 production with Agricultural Tools. Change the +1 commerce from Refrigeration to +1 food. Change the +2 commerce from Gene Manipulation to another +1 food.

    This winds up with Cow, Pig, and Sheep Pastures all being +4F/+1P/+1C/+1 health, and Horse being +2F/+3P/+2C. All of these net +6 yield, which is my standard for a Modern Era improvement on a bonus tile.

    Unlike Camps, I have no problem with Pastures upgrading to Dome Farms. The +6 food (+5 innate, +1 with Artificial Evolution) easily overlaps the food bonus from the Pasture, and the +2 commerce is equal to the Pasture commerce bonus as well. So we can fiddle with the numbers that the resource grants to the Dome Farm.

    I think the fairest bonus would be +1 food and +1 production from Cow/Pig/Sheep and +3 production from Horse (equal to a Horse Pasture's maximum production). EDIT: Horse Dome Farms would also get -1 food, since Horse Pastures don't start out producing additional food. The Dome Farm would still be 4 food, or 5 after Artificial Evolution, which is more than the 2 food that the Pasture would generate. That would balance Horse Dome Farms against everything else.
     
  3. Zeta Nexus

    Zeta Nexus Chieftain

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    Just flavor, but I'd rather drop the +1:commerce: from Cow, since oxen are used in labor (+1:hammers:), Sheep on the other hand produce wool that justifies the +1:commerce:


    I always thought GF is limited to GE resource. Wouldn't that make more sense? I think your main :hammers: source should be mines and industrial complexes, while GF is rare but very valuable.
     
  4. Vokarya

    Vokarya Chieftain

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    I don't mind too much. I'll do that.

    I don't have a problem with free-building Geothermal Factory. It's a little less productive than a Modern Mine or Industrial Complex: +6 at best for the Geothermal, +7 for the Modern Mine, +9 for the Industrial Complex, but it doesn't cause unhealth, deplete (which Modern Mines can do) or reduce the food generation on its tile (which Industrial Complex) does.

    I am also not a fan of improvements that can only be built on one type of resource. I haven't touched Silk Farm at all because I plan on giving it the complete axe once I get around to revising Silk Road. I want Silk Road moved up to Aristocracy + Calendar tech-wise; then, there will be very little reason to have a separate Silk Farm improvement at Trade and Silk Farm can be folded back into Plantation.
     
  5. Vokarya

    Vokarya Chieftain

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    I think the aquatic improvements are the last things I need to balance to bring them up to par with land improvements. Aquatic improvements are a little bit different than land improvements in that there are no non-bonus improvements available before the Transhuman Era. Once you reach the Transhuman Era, then you can build Submerged Towns (this is an unreleased change - Submerged Town is moving to Biomimetics), Extraction Facilities (at Superstrong Alloys), Aquatic Anti-Air Defenses (with Orbital Flight) and Aquatic Forcefields (with Shielding). However, I still think that water improvements should be equal to land improvements. Coastal cities tend to suffer more in production numbers.

    Fishing Boats
    Fishing Boats need a few additional bonuses to bring them up. Fishing Boats get good bonuses to start, with a general +2 food and +1 health from the resource. Pearls are +1 food/+2 commerce/+1 happiness, which I count as equal to the others, and Fish is a little better at +3 food. But then Fishing Boats doesn't get any improvement until Aquaculture. We need a few small tech bonuses to keep them on-curve.
    • +1 food with Compass
    • +1 food with Screw Propeller
    • Additional +2 food with Artificial Evolution

    Whaling Boats
    I didn't notice this until now, but Whale as a resource actually never goes obsolete in AND. In BTS, it goes obsolete at Combustion, but this only costs you +1 happiness innately and an additional +1 happiness from Markets. In AND, Whale powers Adventure Tours, Mobby Meats, and Safari Hunters.

    I like the idea of Whale as the production counterpart to Fish. Whaling Boats get some tech bonuses but again, not enough to stay on pace. We need to add a couple bonuses.
    • +1 default production
    • +1 commerce with Aquaculture
    • +1 food, +2 production with Artificial Evolution

    Offshore Platform
    I'm giving this some large bonuses and an upgrade path. I think it would be fair for Offshore Platform to eventually become Extraction Facility. I'm adding a -1 food penalty to the Offshore Platform so that the upgrade doesn't hurt in terms of lost food, but you might have to consider it before building the Platform. You still get enough other bonuses from the Platform to make it a total bonus.
    • Change default bonuses to -1 food, +4 production, +3 commerce
    • Keep +1 production and increase commerce to +2 with Modern Seismology
    • Delete Transhuman Era tech bonuses and add upgrade to Extraction Facility

    Extraction Facility
    This gets bonuses to keep it in line with land-based improvements, and also serve as an upgrade of the Offshore Platform.
    • Increase default bonuses to +5 production and +5 commerce (keep -1 food)
    • Delete +1 commerce from Methane Ice, keeping +2 production
    • Add +1 production/+2 commerce from Oil

    Submerged Town
    This becomes the generic improvement for water tiles. I can live with it being a separate improvement but the separate unit to build it is getting deleted.
    • Increase default bonuses to +2 food/+2 production/+4 commerce
    • Keep +1 production/+1 commerce from Teleportation
     
  6. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    Those sound good, Vokarya.
     
  7. RyoHazuki

    RyoHazuki Chieftain

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    Good work, as always!
     
  8. Vokarya

    Vokarya Chieftain

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    I have wanted to do some recalibrating of the movement numbers for routes. Right now, I have two problems with the routes available in-game.
    • Highway is much worse than Railroad. Units on a Highway get only 4 tiles of movement per movement point they have. Units on a Railroad get at least 10 tiles of movement regardless of speed.
    • Electric Railroad is not that much better than Railroad. Railroad gives 10 tiles/turn, while Electric Railroad gives 12. It's usually better just to wait until Superconductors and the Maglev for 20 tiles/turn.

    Here is what I want to achieve by recalibrating the numbers:
    • Both Highway and Electric Railroad should be improvements on the Railroad.
    • The choice of whether to use Highway or Electric Railroad should be based on what units you are trying to support. Electric Railroad should be better for slow units (speed-1) and Highway should be better for fast units (speed-2 or more).
    • I don't want to use yields as balancing factors. I've already balanced yields.
    • Maglev should be an improvement on both Highway and Electric Railroad.

    The Math
    Each route has two numbers that determine how fast units on the route moves: <iMovement> and <iFlatMovement>. The number of movement points expended per tile is the LESSER of:
    • 120/iMovement
    • 120/(iFlatMovement * Unit Speed)

    Flipping this around, a unit on a given route can move the GREATER of, in tiles per turn:
    • Unit speed * (120/iMovement)
    • 120/iFlatMovement
    If a 1-move unit can move X tiles on a given route, a unit with greater speed can move more tiles only if its speed is greater than (iMovement/iFlatMovement). For example, Railroad currently has an iMovement of 30 and an iFlatMovement of 12. iMovement/iFlatMovement = 2.5. Only a unit of speed 3 or more will move more than 10 tiles.

    So this is what I have come up with for recalculating route movements.
    • Railroad is reduced from 30/12 to 30/15. This opens up a little more room for improvement. It also means the Industrial Era will be slightly harder to move units around. Most units will only get 8 tiles of movement instead of 10. Speed-3 units will get 12 tiles, but they are fairly rare. This will still be an improvement on the Paved Road, as speed-1 units get only 3 tiles of movement and speed-2 units get 6 tiles on Paved Roads.
    • Highway is increased from 30/30 to 15/15. This makes Highway just as good as Railroad for moving speed-1 units and better for moving faster units. Speed-2 units will get 16 tiles of movement and speed-3 units will get 24 tiles.
    • Electric Railroad is increased from 30/10 to 20/10. Most units will be unaffected, but speed-3 units will be able to get 18 tiles of movement.
    • Maglev is increased from 20/16 to 15/6. Again, this will only affect speed-3+ units. They will get 24 tiles of movement, just as on Highway.
     
  9. IPEX-731BA5DD06

    IPEX-731BA5DD06 Chieftain

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    Personally, I feel, that there is too big a gap between paved roads and the next improvement, being rail roads.

    Too SMALL a gap between railroads-highways-Electric railroads.

    I'd rather, just to change your excellent calculations, and for that reason only ;)

    Switch highways to BETWEEN paved roads and railroads, to truly reflect the usage of wagons for goods transport/baggage etc for Armies.

    This would give a road improvement for each era and lesson the quick obsolescence of Rail/Highway's.

    IDEALLY railroads should only be a ONE line link between cities,where roads/Highway's can be spammed (Spam, Spam, Spam Spam, eggs and Spam) anywhere.

    I do realize that it can't be programmed in for only 1 rail link to be built etc, but I'm an idealist.

    Move the Highways to Architecture, as this allows the stone mason, +1:commerce: to Quarry, and could realistically plan out transport routes.
     
  10. Zeta Nexus

    Zeta Nexus Chieftain

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    +1

    Renaming Highway to Asphalt Road, making it a not so fast but cheap road for your improvements around your cities and making Railroads/E.Railroads the city connectors would be a better solution.
    I find all those math very confusing even though I like complicated solutions. I don't even understand which is the best road until Jumplanes? :help:
     
  11. Arakhor

    Arakhor Dremora Courtier Moderator

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    Don't rename Highway. For one thing, it's a single-word name, which is good, and for another, major roads are generally made of concrete, with minor roads being made of asphalt.
     
  12. Zeta Nexus

    Zeta Nexus Chieftain

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    You're right. I confused it again for Motorway :crazyeye: so I had a different concept in mind.
     
  13. Vokarya

    Vokarya Chieftain

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    I am not changing the basic structure of routes. There is supposed to be no upgrade between Paved Roads and Railroads; land transportation doesn't advance that much between the Classical Era and the Industrial, and Railroads are a huge leap in moving cargo and people. I am also not changing Highway's name. One-word names are valuable, and I don't change them lightly.
     
  14. Kapor

    Kapor Chieftain

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    IMO, it makes no sense to me that cavalry units should move faster over highways than infantry units. It makes more sense to apply flat movement for all late game routes, and just assume that every unit is being moved using trucks, just like they are moved in wagons if they use railroad.
    Even tanks don't actually drive over highways. They are always loaded on trucks when they are being redeployed.
     
  15. 45°38'N-13°47'E

    45°38'N-13°47'E Chieftain

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    Just wonder...
    About tanks, you could think that loading/unloading them takes time. Hence they move slower than other units anyway.
     
  16. aggri1

    aggri1 Chieftain

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    In agreement with Kapor, I also find it odd (or daft) that a fast unit can go further each turn on a railroad than can a slow unit. I reckon rails should all have constant movement allowances regardless of a unit's movement points, since a train laden with foot soldiers goes about as fast as one laden with horses or cannons. 45's point about loading/unloading doesn't convince me.

    I never build highways, so if they come to have some relevance I'll have to have another look. Perhaps the costs of railways should be higher (perhaps they are, since I last played), particularly in difficult terrain, which might make highways more appealing. (But I don't tend to use much cavalry so...).

    For reference, using Vokarya's proposed values:

    Code:
                    highway     railway     elec rail       maglev
    iMovement       15          30          20              15
    iFlatMovement   15          15          10              6
                    
    Unit
    movement
    points         Moves...
    1                8          8           12              20
    2               16          8           12              20
    3               24         12           18              24
    
    Have I made a mistake here?

    I'm not sure I like the highway being so good for the faster units, but ah well.

    Cheers, A.
     
  17. Kapor

    Kapor Chieftain

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    Thanks. I mean, it's not that horses run over highway or that tanks and cannons drive over highway. Since they are all loaded into tucks, just like they are into wagons, IMO same logic should be consistently applied and highways should also use flat movement costs.
     
  18. nionios

    nionios Chieftain

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    I agree with your logic.
    No mistakes in your reference table.Nice work.:)
     
  19. Noyyau

    Noyyau Privateer Captain

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    I too am of the opinion that Railways should provide a fixed movement bonus and Highways one dependent on a unit' s speed.
     
  20. Vokarya

    Vokarya Chieftain

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    I just had a really good idea about an improvement move between techs. I think we should give the Workshop to Smithing instead of Machinery.

    Currently, Machinery has 6 tricks. It has the Mill building and the Watermill, Windmill, Lumbermill, and Workshop improvements. It is also required for the Maceman unit and Crafts Guild Hall in the Medieval Era; because these require a tech from a later era, they count as half a trick each.

    Smithing only has 2 tricks: the Swordsman unit and the Armourer building. These are pretty solid, but I would prefer it to have one more trick, and I think the Workshop is a good fit. Both techs are very close on the tech tree (last column of the Classical Era, require Siege Warfare tech) so it wouldn't mean any major disruption game-wise.
     

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