Improvement Balancing

[Vokarya]

We can't do produced resources contingent on available resources. You also can't do the same level of interaction that you can get with a resource. Alcohol as a resource does interact with a few buildings (Tavern, Festival, Asatru Festhall) and I'm willing to let it stand.

 

[Vokarya]

Here's some more calculations I have made. This is to calculate the bonus that a Plantation bonus resource needs to have once the Plantation upgrades to a Dome Farm.

With my changes, Plantations provide +2 food/+4 commerce from technologies:

• +1 food from Crop Rotation
• +2 commerce from Agricultural Engineering
• +2 commerce from Gene Manipulation
• +1 food from Biomaterials

The Dome Farm produces +5 food/+2 commerce by itself when it comes available (with an additional +1 food at Artificial Evolution). So these are the bonuses that are applied to a Dome Farm on the appropriate bonus to keep the player from losing anything by upgrades.

Base Total Plantation Dome Farm
Banana +2F +4F/+4C +1F/+2C
Coffee +4C +2F/+8C -1F/+6C
Cotton +4C +2F/+8C -1F/+6C
Dye +4C +2F/+8C -1F/+6C
Hemp +3C +2F/+7C -1F/+6C
Incense +5C +2F/+9C -1F/+7C
Rubber +1P/+2C +2F/+1P/+6C -1F/+1P/+4C
Spices +1F/+2C +3F/+6C +4C
Sugar +1F/+2C +3F/+6C +4C
Tea +4C +2F/+8C -1F/+6C
Tobacco +5C +2F/+9C -1F/+7C

Due to the fact that Dome Farms are mostly about Food and Plantations are mostly about Commerce, I chose to actually have Dome Farms on Plantation resources not produce any more commerce (except Hemp, which gains +1C to balance it against the rest). A Dome Farm on a Plantation resource will produce as much commerce as it did before, but it will also produce more food than the Plantation, despite the -1 food. The -1 is taken off the final Dome Farm yields. Otherwise, I have to increase Grain yields more. I don't think I want to do that yet.

Furthermore, to balance the Grain resources against the rest of these resources, I am also adding +1C to grain resources when a Farm upgrades to a Dome Farm. This makes the final +yield +9.5 with all bonuses. This will be my benchmark for other bonus tiles.

 

[Vokarya]

Orchards require only a few tweaks to get them in line with the rest of the improvements.

This is what I set as the yield curve for bonus-tile improvements with Farms and Plantations.

Ancient +2.5
Classical +2.5
Medieval +3.5
Renaissance +3.5
Industrial +4.5
Modern +6
Transhuman +9

Orchards start off at +2 to +2.5.

• Apple is +2.5: +2 food, +1 health from resource
• Lemon is +2: +1 food, +1 commerce, +1 health from resource
• Olive is +2.5: +1 food, +2 commerce, +1 happiness from resource

They then get the following additional bonuses:

• +1 commerce at Currency
• +1 food and +1 commerce at Agricultural Engineering
• +1 commerce at Globalization
• +1 food at Gene Manipulation

This gives a very close curve compared to the Farm. For Apples and Olives, the yield curve looks like this. Lemons is just a half-point lower.

Ancient +2.5
Classical +3
Medieval +3
Renaissance +3
Industrial +4.5
Modern +6
Transhuman +6

The only real change needed before the Modern Era is to move +1 commerce from Agricultural Engineering to Agricultural Tools. I would like to differentiate Agricultural Tools and Crop Rotation a little more. These two techs feel like they are practically twins.

Now, in the Modern Era, I would like Orchards to upgrade to Treefarms and then to Hybrid Forests. A Treefarm starts off with +1 food, +3 production, +3 commerce (+2 by itself, +1 from routes; I am assuming by the Modern Era, you have routes on every tile), an additional +0.5 yield from riverside, and +0.5 health for a total yield of +6. An Orchard is at +5 before the +1 food from Gene Manipulation kicks in. Therefore, I think the following values are appropriate to apply to Treefarms and Hybrid Forests built on fruit tiles:

• Apple: +2F, -1P, +1C
• Lemon: +1F, -1P, +3C
• Olives: +1F, -1P, +3C

This keeps the yield levels from the Orchard intact and the benefit is improved production over what the Orchard was giving.

The yield curve becomes:

Ancient +2.5
Classical +3
Medieval +3.5
Renaissance +3.5
Industrial +4.5
Modern +7.75
Transhuman +9.25

So in the Modern Era, fruit Treefarms are better than grain Farms, but the bonus is spread out over several different yield types (food, production, commerce, and health). It's actually like Watermills. I was requested to increase them a little because they were the most spread-out of improvements in terms of boosted yields. At the Transhuman Era, Dome Farm almost catches up with Hybrid Forest, but it's still best to build the appropriate improvement on the bonus tile.

 

[<Nexus>]

Now, in the Modern Era, I would like Orchards to upgrade to Treefarms and then to Hybrid Forests.

Excuse me but that makes no sense.
Isn't Treefarm about forest cultivation, producing lumber and absorbing CO2?
Orchards on the other hand are purely agrarian: producing food. So Domefarm looks a more viable upgrade for Orchards (and Winery too).

 

[Vokarya]

I thought it made more sense for Orchards to upgrade to Treefarms, as they are both about tree-producing; I considered Dome Farm, but didn't like it as much. Also, Farm and Plantation remove Forests, while Orchard does not. That is the trend that I am continuing with Dome Farm vs. Treefarm/Hybrid Forest.

 

[<Nexus>]

I thought it made more sense for Orchards to upgrade to Treefarms, as they are both about tree-producing; I considered Dome Farm, but didn't like it as much. Also, Farm and Plantation remove Forests, while Orchard does not. That is the trend that I am continuing with Dome Farm vs. Treefarm/Hybrid Forest.

You're right! Orchards should remove forests as well. I never noticed that it doesn't but now as you mention it. Let me try to convince you.
Orchards are basically farms that "accidentally" produce its on trees. Trees that are in some cases rather bushes. Orchards have no industrial outcome: fruit trees don't provide you with high quality lumber. Their only industrial use is to burn it. The CO2 absorption of orchards are also relatively low.
Lumber mills / Forest preserves / Tree farms are for industrial purpose (providing building materials) and CO2 absorption.

If you just take a look the difference is clearly visible:
an orchard:

Spoiler :

a forest:

Spoiler :

So the solution is that Orchards should remove forests as well because they don't coexist in real life. Than orchards can upgrade to Domefarms too.


EDIT:
I know it is so easy to just criticize and would like to express again my gratitude for all the hard work you did already. I can only imagine how much calculations you made to balance all aspects of the game.
I don't want to pull you down with a harsh critique but would like to help with a different point of view.

 

[Rezca]

Aren't they trees either way though?

Way I always looked at it was that only a part of the forest (the ones with the resouirce you're after) was cultivated and harvested, while the rest is left untouched. Where I used to live that wasn't too uncommon. The vineyards tore down huge stretches of forest, but the orchards often had a lot of trees growing around - and even within - the area.


Ultimately I think this is one of those (many) situations where "Game Mechanics/Balance > Real Life Logic" comes into play
No need to change it solely because 'that's not how it works in real life!'

 

[<Nexus>]

Well, than why don't we leave forests under every improvement? Mines only need a little spot for their entrance, the real work is underground. And towns can have parks with trees in the their parks.

It's pretty easy to find reasons for "Game Mechanics/Balance > Real Life Logic". We could break any real life logic but than the game would have no connection to real life, which is okay with a fantasy game, but not with a history game.

 

[Noyyau]

I agree with Sogroon on this one.

Maybe Orchards could skip the upgrade to Treefarm, and instead upgrade to Hybrid Forest directly? One could suppose that in the Transhuman era gene modification and whatnot would give fruit trees that give both nutritional fruits and quality lumber (or, more sensibly, use the biological wood substances for useful purposes).

 

[Rezca]

Well, than why don't we leave forests under every improvement? Mines only need a little spot for their entrance, the real work is underground. And towns can have parks with trees in the their parks.

It's pretty easy to find reasons for "Game Mechanics/Balance > Real Life Logic". We could break any real life logic but than the game would have no connection to real life, which is okay with a fantasy game, but not with a history game.

Mines and their bonuses still benefiting from the production and health of the forest would mean you'd need to either weaken the mines and their benefits, or weaken the forest tiles.

AND isn't a history game though, we've got Rhyse and Fall / Realism Invictus for that

 

[<Nexus>]

AND isn't a history game though, we've got Rhyse and Fall / Realism Invictus for that

Call it whatever you want, but it is still based on real life's history and science facts. In Planetfall or Fall From Haven you can go insane with doing anything, there is not much you can compare them with. In AND players will always keep thinking about "what was it like in real life".

But to summarize: I just don't understand why we need to stick an illogical solution when there is a logical one too, and neither is game braking.

 

[Vokarya]

What if we got rid of Treefarm completely? I am absolutely not going to change Orchard to remove Forests. But I have been thinking that Treefarm and Hybrid Forest are too close together on the tech tree (mid-Modern vs. early-Transhuman) and that we could get rid of Treefarm, give bonuses to Lumbermill and Forest Preserve to keep them differentiated (Lumbermill is Production, FP is Commerce and some Food), and then have a great-dovetail where Lumbermill, Forest Preserve, and Orchard all upgrade to Hybrid Forest.

 

[Arakhor]

Sounds like a plan.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Looks good to me too.

 

[Vokarya]

OK. I think Lumbermill needs just a couple of adjustments to keep it balanced.

First of all, I think we should change Lumbermill from having +1P if riverside to +1P at all times. So Lumbermill goes back up to a flat +2P, with +1C from being riverside; it then gets +1P/+1C when it has a Railroad or better and an additional +1C at Mass Transit.

Secondly, also add +1C to Lumbermill at Ecology; this keeps it in line with Forest Preserve.

 

[gay_Aleks]

Yes. Thank you. Lumbermills are just useless now.

 

[Vokarya]

Here is something else I just noticed while looking at Forest Preserve vs. Lumbermill. What if we flipped Jungle Camp and Forest Preserve from having +1 production if riverside to having +1 food if riverside? Early Jungle cities would get to grow faster but not be able to build as much. It would also really differentiate Forest Preserve from Lumbermill.

 

[Vokarya]

Removing Treefarm also knocks Environmental Economics down below the 2-trick threshold (keeping Hybrid Forest by upgrade and +1P from Watermill). Would there be a problem if the Paradise civic and Park Arcology migrated from Ecological Engineering? I actually think it makes more sense for Environmental Economics to have Paradise. Ecological Engineering is too early in the Transhuman Era. Ecological Engineering has 6 tricks and can spare a couple.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Removing Treefarm also knocks Environmental Economics down below the 2-trick threshold (keeping Hybrid Forest by upgrade and +1P from Watermill). Would there be a problem if the Paradise civic and Park Arcology migrated from Ecological Engineering? I actually think it makes more sense for Environmental Economics to have Paradise. Ecological Engineering is too early in the Transhuman Era. Ecological Engineering has 6 tricks and can spare a couple.

It looks ok to me, same for your previous post.

 

[<Nexus>]

I'm okay with those bellow.