Improvements

[Ahriman]

Forge was boosted from 15% to 25% in v12 (December 26).

Ok, then it isn't documented.
Look in the buildings spoiler tag in the first post in the city development thread:

Spoiler :

Details - Buildings
Stable
-25% cost.
+1 +1 on each Horse worked by this city.

The break-even point is now 7 chariot archers, 5 horsemen, or 3 knights (down from 9, 6, 4 respectively). If you mass-produce more horse units than this, the stable will provide you benefit. However, to pay for the increase mass-produce capability you delay initial production, no benefit if you rush-buy, and requires improved horses in the city radius.
Workshop
30% building production (was 20%)
Windmill
-45% cost and 20% production (was 15%) (same cost as Workshop, 33% less effective, but applies to units and wonders).
Opera House
+1
Culture
+1 for Temple and Museum, -2 for Opera House
Broadcast Tower
-20% cost.
Granary
2, and +1 on each Cow, Deer, Sheep, and Fish worked by the city. Renamed to Smokehouse.
Aqueduct
40% storage. (Growth multiplied by 1.6x)
Hospital
60% storage. (Growth multiplied by 1.6x, cumulative with Aqueduct for a total 2.5x)
-50% cost.
Medical Lab
75% storage. (Growth multiplied by 1.6x, cumulative with Hospital for a total 4x)-40%
Market, Bank
-25% cost.
Stock Exchange
-50% cost.
Harbor
+1 on water tiles worked by this city (was 0) (trade and tourism).
4/turn maintenance (was 3)
Research Lab
+1 on water tiles worked by this city (was 0) (deep-sea exploration).
Arsenal
50% land and air unit production (was 20%, 0%)
Armory
20xp (was 15)
Military Academy
25xp (was 15)

No forge mention.

As you know, the whole field of economics had a transition from mercantile theories to markets in the same era.

But very few countries actually adopted free trade, Britain was really alone in its 19th century free trade policies. In general economic policy remained much unchanged until the 20th century and the foundation of central banks.

but from a historical perspective it does make sense for the economy to get a boost at the Economics tech

Already in the mod I thought, with +1 gold for non-fresh-water trading posts.

In addition, the threshing machine was invented around the same time as other economic transformations, and allowed farms to change from thousands of workers to dozens, dramatically improving food yields.

Already represented by the fertilizer tech boost.

My point isn't that there weren't big increases in lots of fields, my point is that you've already modeled these well with the combination of existing boosts.

 

[Thalassicus]

Ah, just a mistake on the forum post. The forge change is listed in the readmes and on the website, sometimes new information is missed when I transfer it to the forums.

And I disagree that industrial revolution makes sense for large *tile yield* bonuses; the production boost is already adequately handled by the factory and railroad (and the steam power boost for non-fresh-water).

Already in the mod I thought, with +1 gold for non-fresh-water trading posts.

Already represented by the fertilizer tech boost.

My point isn't that there weren't big increases in lots of fields, my point is that you've already modeled these well with the combination of existing boosts.

Oh, sorry! I just misunderstood the use of the word "large" and thought you were saying the +50% on TPs was too large, which is why I went into a long post about economic advancements of the era.

 

[Ahriman]

I guess I distinguish between the industrial revolution and other changes that happened over a similar period of time, but weren't necessarily industrial in nature.

 

[homan1983]

No its simply +1 on hills
with +1 per mountaint.

No other bonuses.

This means its simply the same as a farm on a hill, and with 1 mountain would be a farm-on-river on a hill.

With +1 from engineering, this makes even a hill near a mountain (quite rare) the same as any normal mine. And without, it would simply be terrible.

I would hope that the buff to mines (the hill improvement) can buff the terrace farm as well, either by +1 food or hammer.

I didn't buy that DLC so I can't look at the code of how the terrace works, but is it basically this?

• +1 base yield
• +1 at Civil Service (freshwater) or Fertilizer (non-freshwater)
• +1 for each adjacent mountain tile
• Does not require freshwater
• Can be built only on hills?

If this is the case, the maximum yield of a terraced hill is 72, quite powerful. Even with only one adjacent mountain it's +3 vs the +2 of a mine, and the value of one over the other would depend on the food situation in the nearby city.

One point to make is the mine bonus is split in the next version: +1 on riverside mines at Machinery, and +1 on non-riverside mines at Dynamite. Since non-river mines will only be 1 for the first half of the game, the value will be reduced.

 

[Polycrates]

No its simply +1 on hills
with +1 per mountaint.

No other bonuses.

This means its simply the same as a farm on a hill, and with 1 mountain would be a farm-on-river on a hill.

With +1 from engineering, this makes even a hill near a mountain (quite rare) the same as any normal mine. And without, it would simply be terrible.

I would hope that the buff to mines (the hill improvement) can buff the terrace farm as well, either by +1 food or hammer.

If anything, I'd just give them the food buff at Fertiliser, the same as other waterless farms. I'd be hesitant to give them any buff at all since the Inca are already one of the most powerful civs in the game; except that the terrace farm is already very situational as it is, and it's a fun element that would be a shame to marginalise even more.

 

[homan1983]

I don't agree with giving them a boost with fertilizer and the reason is simple: they'll be competing with mines on hills when a player decides whether to build them or not.

If they were to get their bonus with fertilizer then terrace farms won't be built until such tech (unless the production bonuses get moved to railroad or something as well - which may not be such a bad idea).

 

[Ahriman]

I'd give them the boost with civil service and fertilizer.

That way:
Early game: Mine = +1 hammer, Terrace farm = +1 food, +1 food per adjacent mountain.
Midgame: Mine = +1 hammer, +1 hammer with fresh water, Terrace farm = +1 food, +1 food per adjacent mountain, +1 food with fresh water.
Lategame: Mine = + 2hammer, Terrace farm = +2 food, +1 food per adjacent mountain.

That makes it a powerful UB that is worth building over a mine, but still highly situational.

I'd be hesitant to give them any buff at all since the Inca are already one of the most powerful civs in the game

Really? How so? The maintenance cost reduction is ok, but road costs are pretty small with the larger economy in the balance mod. 1 movement cost in hills is good, but not enough by itself to make them a top tier civ.
Slingers are a weak UU.

 

[Polycrates]

I'd give them the boost with civil service and fertilizer.

That way:
Early game: Mine = +1 hammer, Terrace farm = +1 food, +1 food per adjacent mountain.
Midgame: Mine = +1 hammer, +1 hammer with fresh water, Terrace farm = +1 food, +1 food per adjacent mountain, +1 food with fresh water.
Lategame: Mine = + 2hammer, Terrace farm = +2 food, +1 food per adjacent mountain.

That makes it a powerful UB that is worth building over a mine, but still highly situational.

The reason I didn't suggest Civil Service is that part of their flavour is that they don't require fresh water, so they're designed to let you settle places away from water that otherwise don't have the food to support a city. Stick them next to a mountain range, and you're getting a whole string of 3f2h tiles and even a couple of 4f2h tiles, and you can get there earlier than CS. The corollary being they don't get a boost from freshwater either - and I think this would make them too powerful and lose some of the flavour to boot. A boost at fertiliser comes at about the same time as the mine boost on non-freshwater, which is when they become weak by comparison.

Really? How so? The maintenance cost reduction is ok, but road costs are pretty small with the larger economy in the balance mod. 1 movement cost in hills is good, but not enough by itself to make them a top tier civ.
Slingers are a weak UU.

Yeah true, I'm going off vanilla values with that assessment, but in vanilla (or an environment with similar amounts of gold) an effective ~3/4 reduction in road/rail maintenance can make you a huge amount of gold right throughout the game if you build yourself a decent-sized empire. And the hill movement is a really strong combat boost (and worker help), that I do think just about makes them top-tier by itself because it gives so much extra mobility and flexibility. Slinger is a bit ordinary, I agree, though it's kind of nice as a guerrilla with the hill movement.

 

[Ahriman]

The reason I didn't suggest Civil Service is that part of their flavour is that they don't require fresh water, so they're designed to let you settle places away from water that otherwise don't have the food to support a city. Stick them next to a mountain range, and you're getting a whole string of 3f2h tiles and even a couple of 4f2h tiles, and you can get there earlier than CS. The corollary being they don't get a boost from freshwater either - and I think this would make them too powerful and lose some of the flavour to boot. A boost at fertiliser comes at about the same time as the mine boost on non-freshwater, which is when they become weak by comparison.

The reason I suggest keeping the civil service boost is because otherwise you're better off building a mine on a river-hill in the midgame, even if its next to a mountain.
+2 food is less valuable than +2 hammers.
And no better off building a terrace farm than a normal farm. If you have a hill next to a mountain, then the terrace farm needs to be superior.

an effective ~3/4 reduction in road/rail maintenance can make you a huge amount of gold right throughout the game if you build yourself a decent-sized empire

I find road maintenance is normally a very small proportion of my expenses, particularly in this mod which rebalances in favor of much more building construction.
So the economy gain is small.

 

[Polycrates]

The reason I suggest keeping the civil service boost is because otherwise you're better off building a mine on a river-hill in the midgame, even if its next to a mountain.
+2 food is less valuable than +2 hammers.
And no better off building a terrace farm than a normal farm. If you have a hill next to a mountain, then the terrace farm needs to be superior.

I think we're talking a bit at cross-purposes here
I think you should be equal/better off building a mine on a river hill. I don't think that's the point of terrace farms at all.

For me, the point of terrace farms is that they're (with one mountain) a farmed riverside hill that doesn't have to be next to a river. 2f2h is still a very powerful tile yield - particularly in hilly non-river areas where the competition remains 0f3h and 1f2h until the late game, and where getting enough food for these is very difficult. With the terrace farm, you can make an area of all hills in the middle of nowhere into an incredibly productive city. They're about making great cities in suboptimal areas and maybe helping out your other cities a bit as well (2f2h still beats a lumbermill and arguably a mine on non-river until the lategame without fertiliser). They're an extra option, not necessarily always a better option (though in many cases they're much better)
You can also get to them quicker than to Civil Service.

I find road maintenance is normally a very small proportion of my expenses, particularly in this mod which rebalances in favor of much more building construction.
So the economy gain is small.

Perhaps. But the inca promote building a large empire, and in my last game with them (vanilla) it was saving me approximately 90 gold PER TURN post-railroad (and I guess up to half that pre-railroad), which pretty much doubled my net income. Even before that, it comes out to perhaps 2-3 gold per city per turn of savings and made my trade routes very profitable much earlier. And it's perhaps the lesser half of the UA.

 

[homan1983]

Mines by river can already be irrigated so I think there's not much point talking about it.

Where the problem is, is that without the balance-patch both terrace and mine give +1 resource.

With this patch, mines begin to outweigh the terrace making it completely useless. The mountain nearby bonus is supposed to be just that, a bonus... the same way each persian city gets +2 hapiness or most aztec cities get +15% food.

I would also imagine that historically engineering would have been a more appropriate boost to terraced farms than civil service.

 

[Thalassicus]

I think that for consistency's sake, it makes sense for Terrace Farms to get boosts from the same techs as regular Farms.

The discussion is all moot without some way for me to know what to edit though. I don't even know what the terrace farm's real name is or what its data is in the files. Could someone with the DLC zip its \Gameplay\XML folder and attach it for me, please?

 

[Ahriman]

Can do when I get home tonight, if no-one beats me to it.

 

[Txurce]

I think that for consistency's sake, it makes sense for Terrace Farms to get boosts from the same techs as regular Farms.

The discussion is all moot without some way for me to know what to edit though. I don't even know what the terrace farm's real name is or what its data is in the files. Could someone with the DLC zip its \Gameplay\XML folder and attach it for me, please?

Where do I find that folder, starting from the top?

 

[Thalassicus]

C:\Games\Steam\steamapps\common\sid meier's civilization v\Assets\DLC\<whatever the DLC is called>

 

[homan1983]

I strongly suggest you follow my advice and make it in engineering. I only say this because the choice is between a terrace farm and a mine on a hill so both getting upgraded at the same time does make more sense.

However if you're going to go the other route, please make sure its CS and NOT fertilizer, otherwise you may just find that no one will use terrace farms for the first few thousand years of the game.

I've attached the xml, and here is the exact path i got it from:

C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\sid meier's civilization v\Assets\DLC\DLC_02\Gameplay\XML

Good luck, and thanks for everything in advance.

 

[Polycrates]

Unless it's been changed since 2.0beta, only riverside mines get a boost at machinery now - non-river mines get their boost at dynamite

And riverside terrace farms are useless in vanilla anyway. Sure, nobody will use them riverside, but nobody uses them riverside in vanilla either. A riverside terrace farm (with 1 mountain) is equal to a riverside regular farm (except in the brief period between construction and CS) - boosting them at CS or machinery would be a straight-up buff.

The only situation where riverside terraces and riverside mines are comparable is for the extremely rare 2-mountain-plus-riverside hill, which are vastly outnumbered by 1-mountain-riverside-hills. You'd be causing a much larger imbalance to correct an extremely minor imbalance.

I fully support a boost at Fertiliser/dynamite, but frankly I think even that is a slight overall buff compared to vanilla - because it makes them even more useful in their primary role of providing food to areas where there isn't enough food to make full use of the available hammers.

 

[Thalassicus]

Thank you for the file!

I strongly suggest you follow my advice and make it in engineering. I only say this because the choice is between a terrace farm and a mine on a hill so both getting upgraded at the same time does make more sense.

However if you're going to go the other route, please make sure its CS and NOT fertilizer, otherwise you may just find that no one will use terrace farms for the first few thousand years of the game.

It might have been easy to miss, I highlighted the important parts:

One point to make is the mine bonus is split in the next version: +1 on riverside mines at Machinery, and +1 on non-riverside mines at Dynamite. Since non-river mines will only be 1 for the first half of the game, the value will be reduced.

I think that for consistency's sake, it makes sense for Terrace Farms to get boosts from the same techs as regular Farms.

From what I've seen, it sounds like the improvement and UU are the weak parts of the Inca civ and the trait is the strongest. If they are in fact too powerful I'd prefer equalizing the three instead of leaving two of them weak. I feel it makes a civ more interesting overall to have 3 good things instead of 1 fantastic and 2 useless things.

Along these lines, could someone zip the two XML folders for Inca and Spain and attach it? It'd be helpful to know how everything is set up, beyond just this improvement.

 

[juckie]

I've been pondering about this for some time, and some (luxury) resources are just better than others.

The following grant a building which convert in additional bonusses.
Incense / Wine - Monastery
Ivory - Circus
Marble - Wonder building
Gold / Silver - Mint
Pearls / Whales - Seaport

Then there are some left who do not add more than their basic luxury benefit, thus being weaker.
Cotton
Dyes
Furs
Gems
Silk
Spices
Sugar


I do have some suggestions;
Cotton / Dyes - Cottonworks (@ Chivalry) ---error--- lost my idea about this one.

Furs / Silk - Fashion Showhall (@Globalization) adds 6 and +4 for either (similar to the Monastery but double -due to late game)

Gems - Juweler (@ Economics) adds 1 and 2 to the tile.

Spices / Sugar - Confectionery (@ Theology) adds 3 (similar to the circus)

 

[rhammer640]

I've been pondering about this for some time, and some (luxury) resources are just better than others.

The following grant a building which convert in additional bonusses.
Incense / Wine - Monastery
Ivory - Circus
Marble - Wonder building
Gold / Silver - Mint
Pearls / Whales - Seaport

Then there are some left who do not add more than their basic luxury benefit, thus being weaker.
Cotton
Dyes
Furs
Gems
Silk
Spices
Sugar


I do have some suggestions;
Cotton / Dyes - Cottonworks (@ Chivalry) ---error--- lost my idea about this one.

Furs / Silk - Fashion Showhall (@Globalization) adds 6 and +4 for either (similar to the Monastery but double -due to late game)

Gems - Juweler (@ Economics) adds 1 and 2 to the tile.

Spices / Sugar - Confectionery (@ Theology) adds 3 (similar to the circus)

I could be wrong but im pretty sure thal already added buildings so that all resources are improved by one building. It should be in the next public release.