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Discussion in 'Communitas Expansion Pack' started by Thalassicus, Sep 28, 2010.

  1. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    Ok, then it isn't documented.
    Look in the buildings spoiler tag in the first post in the city development thread:

    Spoiler :
    Details - Buildings
    Stable
    -25% cost.
    +1 +1 on each Horse worked by this city.

    The break-even point is now 7 chariot archers, 5 horsemen, or 3 knights (down from 9, 6, 4 respectively). If you mass-produce more horse units than this, the stable will provide you benefit. However, to pay for the increase mass-produce capability you delay initial production, no benefit if you rush-buy, and requires improved horses in the city radius.
    Workshop
    30% building production (was 20%)
    Windmill
    -45% cost and 20% production (was 15%) (same cost as Workshop, 33% less effective, but applies to units and wonders).
    Opera House
    +1
    Culture
    +1 for Temple and Museum, -2 for Opera House
    Broadcast Tower
    -20% cost.
    Granary
    2, and +1 on each Cow, Deer, Sheep, and Fish worked by the city. Renamed to Smokehouse.
    Aqueduct
    40% storage. (Growth multiplied by 1.6x)
    Hospital
    60% storage. (Growth multiplied by 1.6x, cumulative with Aqueduct for a total 2.5x)
    -50% cost.
    Medical Lab
    75% storage. (Growth multiplied by 1.6x, cumulative with Hospital for a total 4x)-40%
    Market, Bank
    -25% cost.
    Stock Exchange
    -50% cost.
    Harbor
    +1 on water tiles worked by this city (was 0) (trade and tourism).
    4/turn maintenance (was 3)
    Research Lab
    +1 on water tiles worked by this city (was 0) (deep-sea exploration).
    Arsenal
    50% land and air unit production (was 20%, 0%)
    Armory
    20xp (was 15)
    Military Academy
    25xp (was 15)

    No forge mention.

    But very few countries actually adopted free trade, Britain was really alone in its 19th century free trade policies. In general economic policy remained much unchanged until the 20th century and the foundation of central banks.

    Already in the mod I thought, with +1 gold for non-fresh-water trading posts.

    Already represented by the fertilizer tech boost.

    My point isn't that there weren't big increases in lots of fields, my point is that you've already modeled these well with the combination of existing boosts.
     
  2. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    Ah, just a mistake on the forum post. The forge change is listed in the readmes and on the website, sometimes new information is missed when I transfer it to the forums.

    Oh, sorry! I just misunderstood the use of the word "large" and thought you were saying the +50%:c5gold: on TPs was too large, which is why I went into a long post about economic advancements of the era. :)
     
  3. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    I guess I distinguish between the industrial revolution and other changes that happened over a similar period of time, but weren't necessarily industrial in nature.
     
  4. homan1983

    homan1983 King

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    No its simply +1:c5food: on hills
    with +1 :c5food: per mountaint.

    No other bonuses.

    This means its simply the same as a farm on a hill, and with 1 mountain would be a farm-on-river on a hill.

    With +1:c5production: from engineering, this makes even a hill near a mountain (quite rare) the same as any normal mine. And without, it would simply be terrible.

    I would hope that the buff to mines (the hill improvement) can buff the terrace farm as well, either by +1 food or hammer.

     
  5. Polycrates

    Polycrates Emperor

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    If anything, I'd just give them the food buff at Fertiliser, the same as other waterless farms. I'd be hesitant to give them any buff at all since the Inca are already one of the most powerful civs in the game; except that the terrace farm is already very situational as it is, and it's a fun element that would be a shame to marginalise even more.
     
  6. homan1983

    homan1983 King

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    I don't agree with giving them a boost with fertilizer and the reason is simple: they'll be competing with mines on hills when a player decides whether to build them or not.

    If they were to get their bonus with fertilizer then terrace farms won't be built until such tech (unless the production bonuses get moved to railroad or something as well - which may not be such a bad idea).
     
  7. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    I'd give them the boost with civil service and fertilizer.

    That way:
    Early game: Mine = +1 hammer, Terrace farm = +1 food, +1 food per adjacent mountain.
    Midgame: Mine = +1 hammer, +1 hammer with fresh water, Terrace farm = +1 food, +1 food per adjacent mountain, +1 food with fresh water.
    Lategame: Mine = + 2hammer, Terrace farm = +2 food, +1 food per adjacent mountain.

    That makes it a powerful UB that is worth building over a mine, but still highly situational.

    Really? How so? The maintenance cost reduction is ok, but road costs are pretty small with the larger economy in the balance mod. 1 movement cost in hills is good, but not enough by itself to make them a top tier civ.
    Slingers are a weak UU.
     
  8. Polycrates

    Polycrates Emperor

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    The reason I didn't suggest Civil Service is that part of their flavour is that they don't require fresh water, so they're designed to let you settle places away from water that otherwise don't have the food to support a city. Stick them next to a mountain range, and you're getting a whole string of 3f2h tiles and even a couple of 4f2h tiles, and you can get there earlier than CS. The corollary being they don't get a boost from freshwater either - and I think this would make them too powerful and lose some of the flavour to boot. A boost at fertiliser comes at about the same time as the mine boost on non-freshwater, which is when they become weak by comparison.

    Yeah true, I'm going off vanilla values with that assessment, but in vanilla (or an environment with similar amounts of gold) an effective ~3/4 reduction in road/rail maintenance can make you a huge amount of gold right throughout the game if you build yourself a decent-sized empire. And the hill movement is a really strong combat boost (and worker help), that I do think just about makes them top-tier by itself because it gives so much extra mobility and flexibility. Slinger is a bit ordinary, I agree, though it's kind of nice as a guerrilla with the hill movement.
     
  9. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    The reason I suggest keeping the civil service boost is because otherwise you're better off building a mine on a river-hill in the midgame, even if its next to a mountain.
    +2 food is less valuable than +2 hammers.
    And no better off building a terrace farm than a normal farm. If you have a hill next to a mountain, then the terrace farm needs to be superior.

    I find road maintenance is normally a very small proportion of my expenses, particularly in this mod which rebalances in favor of much more building construction.
    So the economy gain is small.
     
  10. Polycrates

    Polycrates Emperor

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    I think we're talking a bit at cross-purposes here :D
    I think you should be equal/better off building a mine on a river hill. I don't think that's the point of terrace farms at all.

    For me, the point of terrace farms is that they're (with one mountain) a farmed riverside hill that doesn't have to be next to a river. 2f2h is still a very powerful tile yield - particularly in hilly non-river areas where the competition remains 0f3h and 1f2h until the late game, and where getting enough food for these is very difficult. With the terrace farm, you can make an area of all hills in the middle of nowhere into an incredibly productive city. They're about making great cities in suboptimal areas and maybe helping out your other cities a bit as well (2f2h still beats a lumbermill and arguably a mine on non-river until the lategame without fertiliser). They're an extra option, not necessarily always a better option (though in many cases they're much better)
    You can also get to them quicker than to Civil Service.

    Perhaps. But the inca promote building a large empire, and in my last game with them (vanilla) it was saving me approximately 90 gold PER TURN post-railroad (and I guess up to half that pre-railroad), which pretty much doubled my net income. Even before that, it comes out to perhaps 2-3 gold per city per turn of savings and made my trade routes very profitable much earlier. And it's perhaps the lesser half of the UA.
     
  11. homan1983

    homan1983 King

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    Mines by river can already be irrigated so I think there's not much point talking about it.

    Where the problem is, is that without the balance-patch both terrace and mine give +1 resource.

    With this patch, mines begin to outweigh the terrace making it completely useless. The mountain nearby bonus is supposed to be just that, a bonus... the same way each persian city gets +2 hapiness or most aztec cities get +15% food.

    I would also imagine that historically engineering would have been a more appropriate boost to terraced farms than civil service.
     
  12. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    I think that for consistency's sake, it makes sense for Terrace Farms to get boosts from the same techs as regular Farms. :)

    The discussion is all moot without some way for me to know what to edit though. I don't even know what the terrace farm's real name is or what its data is in the files. Could someone with the DLC zip its \Gameplay\XML folder and attach it for me, please?
     
  13. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    Can do when I get home tonight, if no-one beats me to it.
     
  14. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    Where do I find that folder, starting from the top?
     
  15. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    C:\Games\Steam\steamapps\common\sid meier's civilization v\Assets\DLC\<whatever the DLC is called>
     
  16. homan1983

    homan1983 King

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    I strongly suggest you follow my advice and make it in engineering. I only say this because the choice is between a terrace farm and a mine on a hill so both getting upgraded at the same time does make more sense.

    However if you're going to go the other route, please make sure its CS and NOT fertilizer, otherwise you may just find that no one will use terrace farms for the first few thousand years of the game.

    I've attached the xml, and here is the exact path i got it from:

    C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\SteamApps\common\sid meier's civilization v\Assets\DLC\DLC_02\Gameplay\XML

    Good luck, and thanks for everything in advance. :)
     

    Attached Files:

  17. Polycrates

    Polycrates Emperor

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    Unless it's been changed since 2.0beta, only riverside mines get a boost at machinery now - non-river mines get their boost at dynamite

    And riverside terrace farms are useless in vanilla anyway. Sure, nobody will use them riverside, but nobody uses them riverside in vanilla either. A riverside terrace farm (with 1 mountain) is equal to a riverside regular farm (except in the brief period between construction and CS) - boosting them at CS or machinery would be a straight-up buff.

    The only situation where riverside terraces and riverside mines are comparable is for the extremely rare 2-mountain-plus-riverside hill, which are vastly outnumbered by 1-mountain-riverside-hills. You'd be causing a much larger imbalance to correct an extremely minor imbalance.

    I fully support a boost at Fertiliser/dynamite, but frankly I think even that is a slight overall buff compared to vanilla - because it makes them even more useful in their primary role of providing food to areas where there isn't enough food to make full use of the available hammers.
     
  18. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    Thank you for the file! :goodjob:

    It might have been easy to miss, I highlighted the important parts:
    From what I've seen, it sounds like the improvement and UU are the weak parts of the Inca civ and the trait is the strongest. If they are in fact too powerful I'd prefer equalizing the three instead of leaving two of them weak. I feel it makes a civ more interesting overall to have 3 good things instead of 1 fantastic and 2 useless things. :)

    Along these lines, could someone zip the two XML folders for Inca and Spain and attach it? It'd be helpful to know how everything is set up, beyond just this improvement.
     
  19. juckie

    juckie Warlord

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    I've been pondering about this for some time, and some (luxury) resources are just better than others.

    The following grant a building which convert in additional bonusses.
    Incense / Wine - Monastery
    Ivory - Circus
    Marble - Wonder building
    Gold / Silver - Mint
    Pearls / Whales - Seaport

    Then there are some left who do not add more than their basic luxury benefit, thus being weaker.
    Cotton
    Dyes
    Furs
    Gems
    Silk
    Spices
    Sugar


    I do have some suggestions;
    Cotton / Dyes - Cottonworks (@ Chivalry) ---error--- lost my idea about this one.

    Furs / Silk - Fashion Showhall (@Globalization) adds 6 :c5culture: and +4 :c5culture: for either (similar to the Monastery but double -due to late game)

    Gems - Juweler (@ Economics) adds 1 :c5happy: and 2 :c5gold: to the tile.

    Spices / Sugar - Confectionery (@ Theology) adds 3 :c5happy: (similar to the circus)
     
  20. rhammer640

    rhammer640 Russian Monk

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    I could be wrong but im pretty sure thal already added buildings so that all resources are improved by one building. It should be in the next public release.
     

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