Improving Endeavours

[Smayo]

Some of the Endeavours after antiquity feel very weak, specifically the Economic, Scientific and Cultural ones.

In Exploration, they cost 120 Influence, and if accepted/supported, give 120/180 Gold/Culture/Science over 15 turns.

That’s a 1:1 or 2:1 ratio, but any player worth their salt would tell you that influence is worth at least 4 times the Gold and probably more.

There’s two ways I can see fixing this. One is increase the lump sum from 8 /12 to 16/ 24.

But even then, that feels hardly worth it. I could have it be even bigger, say 24/36. That would still lead to issues later in the age, where once you have 300/400 culture, 36 isn’t that much.

Another way to scale it would be

The other thought I had was to scale the yields like Farmer’s Market/Local Festivals. So each city would get 5 science. This would alleviate the scaling problem.

I’m not sure on what would be a fair value. I think it would need to be more than the base set at the beginning of exploration, maybe 24 in total? It think we can safely assume players have 3 cities at least at the start of Exploration. And maybe max out at 10? Maybe higher for some freaky people.
So then it would be 8*3 = 24 at the start, curving up to 80 at the end of exploration, which is 360 and 1200 at the end. That last one is a little scary, especially only paying 120 influence for it.

Another idea someone suggested was to buff science buildings by 2 so then it scales a bit better for taller empires. That would be very possible to do

What are people’s thoughts?

My only concern is that it makes Farmer’s Market/ Local Festivals less unique. And I do like the identity of Endeavours helping small empires out more than big empires, which the original did better.

Was also gonna buff Ginseng agreement.

 

[evonannoredars]

I reckon scaling it per times you've run it with the other leader before could be neat.

 

[stealth_nsk]

Probably endeavors need some tweaking, but they still have a lot if use, as in addition to their basic effect, they improve relations.

 

[MutilationWave]

Some of the Endeavours after antiquity feel very weak, specifically the Economic, Scientific and Cultural ones.

In Exploration, they cost 120 Influence, and if accepted/supported, give 120/180 Gold/Culture/Science over 15 turns.

That’s a 1:1 or 2:1 ratio, but any player worth their salt would tell you that influence is worth at least 4 times the Gold and probably more.

There’s two ways I can see fixing this. One is increase the lump sum from 8 /12 to 16/ 24.

But even then, that feels hardly worth it. I could have it be even bigger, say 24/36. That would still lead to issues later in the age, where once you have 300/400 culture, 36 isn’t that much.

Another way to scale it would be

The other thought I had was to scale the yields like Farmer’s Market/Local Festivals. So each city would get 5 science. This would alleviate the scaling problem.

I’m not sure on what would be a fair value. I think it would need to be more than the base set at the beginning of exploration, maybe 24 in total? It think we can safely assume players have 3 cities at least at the start of Exploration. And maybe max out at 10? Maybe higher for some freaky people.
So then it would be 8*3 = 24 at the start, curving up to 80 at the end of exploration, which is 360 and 1200 at the end. That last one is a little scary, especially only paying 120 influence for it.

Another idea someone suggested was to buff science buildings by 2 so then it scales a bit better for taller empires. That would be very possible to do

What are people’s thoughts?

My only concern is that it makes Farmer’s Market/ Local Festivals less unique. And I do like the identity of Endeavours helping small empires out more than big empires, which the original did better.

Was also gonna buff Ginseng agreement.

I hardly ever support these, even in antiquity. Influence is too scarce, yet AI spams them. Only time I will support is if relations are going bad and I want war with someone different, or the +3 CS one if I'm in a war stalemate.

They all need buffed, but ginseng agreement is total garbage, especially for something you had to suzerain a city state for. It would need to be tripled or quadrupled I think. I remember the first (and only) time I picked it. I was like you have got to be kidding me.

 

[bumpyglint]

This is a more general problem with all the "X per Age bonus".
They are "really good" at the start of antiquity, "ok" at the start of other ages, and "completly garbage" at the end of second/ third Ages.

The problem is that having x2/x3 the bonus compared to antiquity is simply not enough in a game with exponential growth, this a problem not only for endeavours but also leader bonuses, tradition etc...

A sort of solution could be that endeavours bonuses are based on population (basing them on n. of cities could disincentivize tall empires), but this would create a potential big asimmetry between players (at the moment they give the same bonus to both players, while something like this could bring a way bigger bonus to one of the 2 players).

Probably the most balanced solution would be to give them a yield based on the Age but also on the % of completion of that age (obviously, the more the Age progress, the more it grants) but I'm afraid they won't choose something that could looks complicated for the average player

 

[sixty4half]

Idk if they need fixing. They are only the second tier of Influence uses, only above the Denouncements. I feel like the help with maintain relationships is their main use.

As a war monger you would rather use Influence for War Support, taking down district defenses, and denying Denouncements (to deny Formal War declarations against you). As well as using Endevours to maintain relationships with those you aren't at war with.

Next tier would be Religous conversion and befriending Barbs. I'd rather do that than Endeavors for most games. And I belive Genisng Agreement will be in this tier after Tuesday. (At least, I see no reason for them to nerf it in the same patch they are trying to increase growth overall)

The top tier is Steal Tech and Govt Secrets. This is what you want to be spending Influence on.

If I want to be spending Inf on those things in about 80% of the cases, I don't think Endevours do need a buff.

 

[Smayo]

Idk if they need fixing. They are only the second tier of Influence uses, only above the Denouncements. I feel like the help with maintain relationships is their main use.

As a war monger you would rather use Influence for War Support, taking down district defenses, and denying Denouncements (to deny Formal War declarations against you). As well as using Endevours to maintain relationships with those you aren't at war with.

Next tier would be Religous conversion and befriending Barbs. I'd rather do that than Endeavors for most games. And I belive Genisng Agreement will be in this tier after Tuesday. (At least, I see no reason for them to nerf it in the same patch they are trying to increase growth overall)

The top tier is Steal Tech and Govt Secrets. This is what you want to be spending Influence on.

If I want to be spending Inf on those things in about 80% of the cases, I don't think Endevours do need a buff.

I would agree with your points on what influence is good for. Yeah they do help with relationships but it seems weird that they give so little. It makes it feel like the optimal way to play is just ignore them totally and spam espionage / hold influence for war support /suzeraining. This leads to alliances not meaning much beyond shared wars and attribute boosting per alliance.

By rebalancing the benefits, it will be worth using endeavours for more than just maintaining a relationship. Then you don’t need to ignore them in favour of always espionage.

 

[Smayo]

This is a more general problem with all the "X per Age bonus".
They are "really good" at the start of antiquity, "ok" at the start of other ages, and "completly garbage" at the end of second/ third Ages.

The problem is that having x2/x3 the bonus compared to antiquity is simply not enough in a game with exponential growth, this a problem not only for endeavours but also leader bonuses, tradition etc...

A sort of solution could be that endeavours bonuses are based on population (basing them on n. of cities could disincentivize tall empires), but this would create a potential big asimmetry between players (at the moment they give the same bonus to both players, while something like this could bring a way bigger bonus to one of the 2 players).

Probably the most balanced solution would be to give them a yield based on the Age but also on the % of completion of that age (obviously, the more the Age progress, the more it grants) but I'm afraid they won't choose something that could looks complicated for the average player

With the age setup, there’s no need for them to be multiplied by age, they can be completely different in different ages.

I am not sure about %yield as that feels a bit win more for science, where it would be nice for endeavours to allow a weak science player to supplement their science.

it could be interesting to do it by %age completion, that would allow it to scale through the age but not favour people already dominating science. That or if I can’t manage that, number of turns would be a good solution

 

[aelf]

They're very good in early Antiquity, so much so that I started spending influence on them first before befriending city states that anyway survive for much longer in Antiquity.

Later on, now that alliances are harder to get, I've learned the value of starting Exploration and Modern with an endeavour to lock in the alliance with the ally I had in the previous age. If someone else beats you to it, you'd have a hard time getting the alliance and that could mean having no allies, which is dangerous on Deity. So I agree with the person saying that the value of endeavours (at least after Antiquity) is primarily in the diplomatic aspect.

 

[King of Prussia]

Endeavors, like a lot of other stuff, suffers from yield flation. It gets worse and worse as the game goes on. Its something i would assume gets tweaked over time thru various balance changes.

 

[vorlon_mi]

I have also observed the early/late age change in emphasis. Early in each of the ages, I use endeavours to build a relationship. I use trade routes also. The influence required to befriend an IP increases with the age, so it may take many turns before I can even consider it.

Late in the age, I am usually conserving my influence for war support. The AI seem to like dispersing IP, so trying to befriend one late in the age is risky -- risking a total waste of the influence with no benefits. I'm less interested in endeavours late in the age, even with buffed numbers, because I focus on other areas. I look to see which leader is generating the most science to steal from; which leader is making the most culture to steal from. Espionage happens often in between wars late in the age.

 

[Melkus]

Is there an argument against exchanging a certain percentage of your science/culture with endeavours? So they get 10 % of yours and you get 10% of theirs. That would solve the scaling problem and make choosing your science partners more interesting strategically, no?
I never liked that the endeavors just generate yields that aren't based on anything in the game.

[Edit - Bonus idea: make the actual percentage dependent on the quality of the relationship]

 

[Smayo]

I have also observed the early/late age change in emphasis. Early in each of the ages, I use endeavours to build a relationship. I use trade routes also. The influence required to befriend an IP increases with the age, so it may take many turns before I can even consider it.

Late in the age, I am usually conserving my influence for war support. The AI seem to like dispersing IP, so trying to befriend one late in the age is risky -- risking a total waste of the influence with no benefits. I'm less interested in endeavours late in the age, even with buffed numbers, because I focus on other areas. I look to see which leader is generating the most science to steal from; which leader is making the most culture to steal from. Espionage happens often in between wars late in the age.

I do like the shifting priorities of endeavours as the age changes, and I don’t want to mess that up. But I do think there’s no real value in endeavours in Modern at all. Like it would be better to just spam trade routes to get relationships up in modern. Same with Exploration, but not quite as bad.

I’m not sure if it’s possible to “exchange” yields as Melkus says. The problem with that is it’s not mutually beneficial.

 

[Melkus]

The problem with that is it’s not mutually beneficial.

Yes - exchanging wasn't the right word, it should be added of course - you open your books, they open theirs and both profit.

But there would be a tradeoff to it - if you're really strong, you'll probably think twice who you partner with.
Or - to make it more even - take a percentage of the combined science and add it to both partners' yields.

 

[Smayo]

Ah right. Yeah it could be cool. I’ll have a look to see how feasible it is anyways.

 

[The_goggles_do_nothing]

When I started playing if I didn't have much culture or science I'd accept or offer an endeavor. Once I realized the AI isn't very competitive with getting suzerains I've been saving my influence for that.

I am not sure about %yield as that feels a bit win more for science, where it would be nice for endeavours to allow a weak science player to supplement their science.

It could scale on the number of celebrations / social policy slots. That's not directly tied with science or number of cities, and goes up the later in the age you are.