Indefinite preNES: Fantasy

[bombshoo]

I just want to say this seems to be off to a very good start.

Let's keep it up.

Edit: And since the mirror world was my idea, that is obviously where my vote is currently placed. I am more than open to other ideas though. The layered approach is definitely interesting though I must admit I haven't fully wrapped my head around it yet. I will probably need a more concrete picture of how it would function in order to offer a good opinion on it.

 

[Lord of Elves]

All cool. I will fight for the presence of Elves, however, because I have plans for them. More like Genghis Khan than peaceful forest-dwelling people, however. Prepare yourselves for my violent brand of Elven... ness.

As far as the gods go, I was thinking along the lines that the gods had signed a pact not to directly interfere in the realm of mortals, that is not to attempt to manipulate mortal factions or manifest on the mortal plane. Doing so by any of the gods would force the other gods to go to war to "maintain the balance", normally rallying their mortal followers and duking it out on the mortal plane until the physical mortal manifestation of the transgressing god had been destroyed, and his followers routed.

Normally resulting in an apocalyptic scale of destruction and the re-ordering of society every several thousand years.

 

[Angst]

As an example of how a multi-layered world could be "designed"; of course, each underground realm has a sky, so it looks like that world is the top floor.

EDIT: Lord of Elves, I think Elves are close to safe, actually. They're iconic and easy to implement and fills a lot of roles. However, their culture isn't set in stone.

 

[Ninja Dude]

Well, I'm in favor of various "spheres" floating around, with portals and large-scale magical rituals capable of transporting thousands of people between them, while smaller spells could transport individuals or small groups. The space in between them could be filled with deformed demigods and other strange beings for good measure It would kinda make sense if we went with the "gods are mana lumped together" idea. Some of them maybe only got a little bit and didn't develop, while some just drifted in nothingness and went insane after awhile. I'm getting off track though...

However, if we did go with the multiple words idea, then there could be gods "indigenous" to worlds, whether by choice or by weakness, while much stronger ones could move around and travel between worlds.

Throw in a few twin gods that make mirror universes in there and everyone is happy
edit: And each world could be a multilayered sphere on top of it if we really got crazy

 

[Angst]

I think that if we go mirror, we stick with mirror; just as if we go with void isles or layers, we stick with that. No need to complicate things beyond one universal design.

Demiods being indigenous to worlds - I like it.
Deformed, crazed demigods in between worlds - I like it.
Portal system - Makes sense. A nation, of course, would have to be quite developed in order to construct one itself.

 

[bombshoo]

I understand a bit better now. Perhaps a combination of the mirror and layered approach? One layer is the light layer and below is the dark layer and they mirror each other? I don't think that would be too complex.

On the discovery idea: I think this would work well as a way of implementing the Ragnarok idea. Once people have finally rediscovered all of the old secrets of a past realm (inevitably through war and greed), they set the path for their own destruction, restarting the loop. Perhaps this could be that they become so powerful they inevitably destroy themselves or because they gain enough power that they start to become a threat to the gods themselves. I don't think the rediscovery of an old physical realm is necessary, perhaps just a rediscovery of their old ideas/powers?

 

[Lord of Elves]

On the subject of the Ragnarok, do the mortal races understand its true nature, or the true nature of the gods at all? Or do they regard it as some sort of doomsday event that has pervaded past generations, unlikely to come again, or further, a terrible conflagration against which all efforts must be taken against?

I assume they must have some record of it.

 

[bombshoo]

I would like to think they have a vague idea it has happened, but only once before. I would think their own egos would tend to get the better of them and they think they can avoid it thus making them too stupid to take real measures against it. Perhaps there are a few people in-the-know but they are widely regarded as paranoid or just attention seeking.

 

[Kyzarc Fotjage]

random idea for a discovery/fantasy: you could have a world thats devoid of magic and has something similar to the roman empire sitting there. Then have a disappearing island/world/thingie that they discover and send a colonization party to. When they arrive the land they go to disappears again, taking them with it.

For ancient history/gods there could be the primal forces which fought and exploded, like ninjadude said, and the resulting mana was shaped into gods by people's beliefs. Similar to Discworld, gods are made by the people not v-v.

Any of the above babblespeak make sense?

 

[Ninja Dude]

I like bombshoo's idea. Ideas and possibly magic items being rediscovered/remade end up signaling/causing the end of all things. Like the first two opposing gods making various magical items in their initial battle, kill each other with them. Said items are gathered or remade by the gods formed by their remains. Those gods end up fighting one another, until one of them makes something that like puts all of the gods to sleep. Eventually they all start waking up, each one thinking they've won that last battle. They make their own worlds, spreading their knowledge and magic to their servants and the inhabitants of their worlds. Eventually they rediscover each other, and that's where the NES takes over.

Thoughts?

 

[Shadowbound]

On Cosmology
Two greater gods, locked in constant conflict and pulling the world between them? I've got two for you from Earth's history: The Sun and Moon. Set up the Sun as a creator of energy, and the Moon as an absorber and reflecter, and BHAM. Instant ideological incomprehension, and neither is able to overcome the other. Give them accompanying Angelic Hosts of Helions and Lunites, and you have a cosmic war.

At the time of the game, they'd be recovering from the latest bout of fighting. Either dead (or as dead as a God can be) or at truce (one in the sky at a time, taking turns). The Ragnarok of the world being when the truce is broken, as the two go back to fighting.

I also like the idea of an Otherworld, overlapped and influencing/influenced by the normal Earth.

On Magic
You don't want the traditional classical elements. I've got another set for you: Body, Anima, and Spirit.

Body is Earth. It contains and provides form for the other elements. It's difficult to shape by magical means unless its your own body. It gathers spirit to itself, especially when properly shaped. Blood's structure makes it ideal for holding spirit, and magic that is powered by spirit stored in blood is predictably called Blood Magic.

Anima is Motion. It is easily influenced by Spirit, and easily influences Body. This means that 99% of magic is focused on Anima, and the remaining 1% go through Anima to act on the other elements. Anima is energy: pump Anima into something and it'll get hotter. Pump enough, fast enough, and the atoms (I'm using bastardized Greek philosophy here, they had atoms) in it will explode. Anima can also be used to move things without exploding them. Or, well, most magical stuff.

Spirit is the Soul. It's a guiding force for Body and Anima. A wizard uses his spirit to influence anima to cause the effect he wants, but he can also use others spirits (which has a hefty initial cost because of the necessity of moving through all the elements) in what would probably be regarded as Black Magic. Spirit directs the anima, and as such leaves the wizard's body, and is difficult to retrieve. So they have to rest after doing a lot of mumbo jumbo, or find a battery.

The Law of Conservation of Magic can also be invoked. You can't make more Body, Anima, or Spirit, only work with what is already there. A wizard needs to find the anima he needs to blow up a mountain, a necromancer needs to steal the spirit from someone to get his zombies working and a shapeshifter can't gain 300 pounds or turn into a giant (though he can lose weight, but that comes with obvious problems).

A mage would be able to influence his Body to slow its decay, with practice, and as such could live for centuries. During which he would get more and more efficient in his manipulation of the elements.

Black Magic, operating on the Law of Conservation, would obviously be much stronger than White Magic that only relied on a mage's own strength. Which is a nice effect that encourages people to be evil, leaving only real men as good guys.

Magic would require a good deal of preparation in order to maximize your efficiency. Magic circles, rituals, and proper focuses would help ensure that as little valuable Spirit and Anima is wasted. On-the-fly sorcery would be costly and draining: it'd be even more tiring to throw someone across a room than it would be to pick them up and do it physically. Staffs, wands, and rods would come in handy, but most mages would still be at their best working with a silver pentagram.

On Elves

Lj knows my love of real elves, not Tolkien's Blonde Prettyboys. I demand the traditional Faerie, and not as a playable race but as the enigmatic batshit crazy inhabitants of the Otherworld.

 

[bombshoo]

We seem to be coming up with a few overreaching "themes" for this: "balance and order", "birth and rebirth" and "discovery and rediscovery". In my experience, the best stories always read on multiple levels and because of this, I think we should follow these themes (and others) through and make them work at as many different levels within the universe of the NES as possible.

For example, these themes should not only be present at the mythological scale, but at the societal (through government, customs, philosophies), natural (in environments, flora and fauna) and individual (through personalities and traits of characters) as well.

I think Shadowbound's ideas can fit into what we have very well.

You have a Light and Dark World that influence each other.

The Light World is the world directly influenced by the energy from the Sun. The Sun's energy flows into this realm endowing it with land, life and magic.

The Dark World is the world influenced by the Moon. The energy of the Sun that is absorbed and then reflected by the Moon is what flows into this realm, endowing with near copies of the Light World (since it's the same energy at heart) but "tainted" by darkness.

Maybe Demigods are still a result of the energy of the Sun and the Moon but are born of the energy that was neither absorbed nor reflected by the worlds or either of the great powers.

Perhaps something like this?

If you'll notice a slight bit of Dark "Moon" energy does hit the Light World while the same happens with Light "Sun" energy in the Dark World. This is why they both experience night and day and why while both are more influenced by one of the two entities, neither are completely obligated to be solely within one camp. Sorry it's a bit messy but I think it gets the idea through.

 

[das]

Well, I like the idea of a skyworld discovery fantasy, the skyworld being a result of a "normal" fantasy world that was shattered into pieces by some cataclysmic event, leaving remains of ancient civilisations sprinkled here and there. Every player starts out on his own "island" with its own customised civilisation/race/culture, with bonus points for originality, then acquires skytravel capabilities and so can explore and colonise other, bigger skyworlds, scavenging the ruins and coming into contact with other players in the process.

I don't think there is any real need for gods or pre-extant races being actively involved in the game, actually. Might be more fun without any of that.

It's partly inspired by this and related stories.

 

[Haseri]

I like das's idea, only becuase I had a similar idea a while ago. Although not only would there be skyships, or voidships or whatever, but some spheres would have portals or something that linked to other specific spheres, or dialed to a number of spheres. Now, if these portals were part of the landscape, they would have to be heavily guarded, as they would be an easy invasion point.

 

[Lord of Elves]

On Cosmology
Two greater gods, locked in constant conflict and pulling the world between them? I've got two for you from Earth's history: The Sun and Moon. Set up the Sun as a creator of energy, and the Moon as an absorber and reflecter, and BHAM. Instant ideological incomprehension, and neither is able to overcome the other. Give them accompanying Angelic Hosts of Helions and Lunites, and you have a cosmic war.

At the time of the game, they'd be recovering from the latest bout of fighting. Either dead (or as dead as a God can be) or at truce (one in the sky at a time, taking turns). The Ragnarok of the world being when the truce is broken, as the two go back to fighting.

I also like the idea of an Otherworld, overlapped and influencing/influenced by the normal Earth.

On Magic
You don't want the traditional classical elements. I've got another set for you: Body, Anima, and Spirit.

Body is Earth. It contains and provides form for the other elements. It's difficult to shape by magical means unless its your own body. It gathers spirit to itself, especially when properly shaped. Blood's structure makes it ideal for holding spirit, and magic that is powered by spirit stored in blood is predictably called Blood Magic.

Anima is Motion. It is easily influenced by Spirit, and easily influences Body. This means that 99% of magic is focused on Anima, and the remaining 1% go through Anima to act on the other elements. Anima is energy: pump Anima into something and it'll get hotter. Pump enough, fast enough, and the atoms (I'm using bastardized Greek philosophy here, they had atoms) in it will explode. Anima can also be used to move things without exploding them. Or, well, most magical stuff.

Spirit is the Soul. It's a guiding force for Body and Anima. A wizard uses his spirit to influence anima to cause the effect he wants, but he can also use others spirits (which has a hefty initial cost because of the necessity of moving through all the elements) in what would probably be regarded as Black Magic. Spirit directs the anima, and as such leaves the wizard's body, and is difficult to retrieve. So they have to rest after doing a lot of mumbo jumbo, or find a battery.

The Law of Conservation of Magic can also be invoked. You can't make more Body, Anima, or Spirit, only work with what is already there. A wizard needs to find the anima he needs to blow up a mountain, a necromancer needs to steal the spirit from someone to get his zombies working and a shapeshifter can't gain 300 pounds or turn into a giant (though he can lose weight, but that comes with obvious problems).

A mage would be able to influence his Body to slow its decay, with practice, and as such could live for centuries. During which he would get more and more efficient in his manipulation of the elements.

Black Magic, operating on the Law of Conservation, would obviously be much stronger than White Magic that only relied on a mage's own strength. Which is a nice effect that encourages people to be evil, leaving only real men as good guys.

Magic would require a good deal of preparation in order to maximize your efficiency. Magic circles, rituals, and proper focuses would help ensure that as little valuable Spirit and Anima is wasted. On-the-fly sorcery would be costly and draining: it'd be even more tiring to throw someone across a room than it would be to pick them up and do it physically. Staffs, wands, and rods would come in handy, but most mages would still be at their best working with a silver pentagram.

On Elves

Lj knows my love of real elves, not Tolkien's Blonde Prettyboys. I demand the traditional Faerie, and not as a playable race but as the enigmatic batshit crazy inhabitants of the Otherworld.

In my opinion, you haven't seen Elves until you see my genocide-committing, ethnic-cleansing, city-burning ones. They must have a presence in this NES, for what else are the pathetic humans going to fight against?

 

[Diamondeye]

Lord of Elves, you'll like what I've done/am doing with Elves in ImmacuNES III

I just found this thread and it sounds like a fantastic project, though I think creating the world will be much more funny than actually playing in it

It seems like people are generally settled for the Mirror world setup between Light/Dark, although each will contain a part of the other like Bombshoo said (yin and yang, anyone? ).

A nice idea about the 'balance' thing is that a nation might try to use magic for good and 'orderly' purposes, meanwhile stirring an opposite reaction in the "mirror" world. That mutual dependancy is probably one of the most fascinating things about the setup, in my opinion.

Oh and good to see you again, LJ =)

 

[Lord of Elves]

Lord of Elves, you'll like what I've done/am doing with Elves in ImmacuNES III

I just found this thread and it sounds like a fantastic project, though I think creating the world will be much more funny than actually playing in it

It seems like people are generally settled for the Mirror world setup between Light/Dark, although each will contain a part of the other like Bombshoo said (yin and yang, anyone? ).

A nice idea about the 'balance' thing is that a nation might try to use magic for good and 'orderly' purposes, meanwhile stirring an opposite reaction in the "mirror" world. That mutual dependancy is probably one of the most fascinating things about the setup, in my opinion.

Oh and good to see you again, LJ =)

My Elves are similar to Tolkien's in that "their time has passed", but they don't cry, sing or write poetry about it. They enslave humans and make them fight to the death for their amusement, sack their towns, and sacrifice their women to their deity.

Bit confused, is the mirror world supposed to be an "opposite", version of the other world?

 

[Angst]

There's so much here I have to reply to. This is just a short, incomplete post. Will answer to everything.

But just noting, what I imagine with the "mirrored worlds" proposed concept might be some tweaked version of Lorwyn-Shadowmoor in Magic; but with identical terrain. I think it will be a world of darkness, and one of light; a world of drought and one of growth; one of cold, one of heat; and at least when something happen in one world, a balance event happens in the other.

I also think we can have inspiration from Legend of Zelda, as having been mentioned earlier, in that the worlds possibly "overlap" each other; in Twilight Princess, Link was able to shift between the two worlds somehow. It was a quite cool game, and an interesting concept. Also, it allows to create "Twilight entities", creatures that exist on both planes at the same time... Somehow...

 

[Lord of Elves]

Also, on the subject of game mechanics, I propose the creation of a "racial constituence", stat that would reflect the racial composition of your nation, and would have an effect on the general stability thereof. Obviously there has to be some "secular", states with a reasonably large population of non-native races that aren't kept in slavery. Or maybe they are...

 

[Shadowbound]

I don't like the Dark is Bad setup you have going. I explicitely picked Sun and Moon because neither is necessarily better than the other: if I wanted a complete anti-Sun, I'd have gone with a black hole or something.

Helions, as illustrated in Bombshoo's picture, would get their energy from the sun. That's the only place they could get their energy, and they're incredibly inefficient in using it (because they've never had to worry about that). When they came to Earth, they'd have a lot of weight to throw around, but they'd be running on batteries, and would be inefficient in recouping solar power.

Lunites would be extremely efficient users of energy, but not so good at storing it. They'd cluster in areas with a lot of energy, simply because they don't have the batteries that the Helions do and can only carry a little around with them. Possibly responsible for teaching man how to use magic, as mages basically do the same thing as them. Their relationship with mages, and dependence on outside energy, might see a lot working as partners/familiars with mages.