India-China get closer...push Tibet afar?

[allhailIndia]

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Here's the Full Story

China and India sign border deal
The premiers are also trying to boost economic ties
India and China have signed an agreement in Delhi aimed at resolving a long-running dispute over their Himalayan border.

India's national security adviser said it was "one of the most significant documents" signed by the two countries.

The agreement was sealed as Indian premier Manmohan Singh met visiting Chinese counterpart Wen Jiabao.

The world's two most populous countries fought a bitter war over their largely unmarked border in 1962.

'Major process'

India's National Security Adviser MK Narayanan told Indian television that Indian and Chinese officials had worked out a roadmap for resolving the disputed 3,550km (2,200 mile) border.

"It shows a lot of give and take on both sides," he said.


We are going to put in place a bridge of friendship linking our two countries, a bridge that will lead both of us to the future
Wen Jiabao

Trade powers ties

"We are very hopeful that this document will be the starting point of a major process in the settlement of the boundary dispute between India and China."

The joint statement by the two countries did not go into specifics on the issue, talking of "political parameters" and "guiding principles".

However, China has now formally given up its claim to the state of Sikkim.

Click here for map of disputed areas

The joint statement refers to "the Sikkim State of the Republic of India".

Until now, China had never recognised India's 1975 annexation of Sikkim.

On the remaining issues of contention, the statement said "special representatives" would negotiate the issues, adding: "Both sides are convinced that an early settlement of the boundary question will advance the basic interests of the two countries."

Both sides have previously claimed the other is occupying parts of its land.

While India has accused China of occupying territory in Kashmir, Beijing has laid claim to territory in the north-east Indian state of Arunachal Pradesh.

IT connection

However, analysts say the border differences have been played down in recent times as China and India developed a blossoming economic relationship.

Tibetan exiles have protested in the past against the border talks

In addition to the border plans, Mr Wen said: "We are also going to release a five-year plan for comprehensive economic cooperation and trade."

China also reiterated its support for India to be given a permanent seat on the UN Security Council.

On Sunday, Mr Wen visited Bangalore, where he urged closer ties in the fields of science and technology.

"If India and China co-operate in the IT industry, we will be able to lead the world... and it will signify the coming of the Asian century of the IT industry," Mr Wen said.

The Chinese premier is on the final leg of his first South Asian tour since taking office last March.

Its been somethign which has been bothering me somewhat...

On the one hand, I see this as a great development for India and China to develop closre economic and political ties. The estrangement of the 60s-80s was a period of bad misunderstandign and now seems to have been put away. This will help both countries economically in the short run, and gradually, maybe a closer partnership in a more multi-polar world in the long run.

On the other hand, I do feel that the Tibetans have been done a great injustice. I can't but help imagine them feeling betrayed by India, which offered them great support, when it formally accepted China's claim over Tibet.

Well, I just wanted to know how the International community sees the closeness between India and China and the consequent implications for the aspirations of the Tibetans.

 

[Goober]

I think its good that they are talking. I mean, another border war between the 2, both nuclear-armed, both with huge armies, would be devastating, right? Yes, I am glad that they are talking.

It is kinda a shame about Tibet. But, let's face it, Tibet is an autonomous region of China. That ain't changing. So I say let's just accept Tibet as part of China, work out this Border stuff, and move on.

 

[Damnyankee]

Totally agree, even though it is ashame, it is too late to do anything. As we speak, more chinese settlers flow in making native tibetians a minority.

 

[Babbler]

Face reality -- the only way the PRC and the PLA are leaving is if there is a trouble with metropolitian China. And as said before, Han Chinese settlers are coming in, mean that even the Tibetians won independence, they would sit have to content with a large portion of the poplutation that holds it allegiance elsewhere.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

The best we can hope for is for the Chinese leadership to grant greater autonomy to Tibetans; otherwise in the foreseeable future, Tibet will not be going its own way at anytime. No Chinese leader is going to risk committing political suicide, by pushing for Tibetan independence (even in the unlikeliest likelihood he believes in it).

What's the status on Sikkim? The Chinese are quietly recognizing India's rights over Sikkim, in exchange.

 

[Dida]

There is virtually no chance for Tibet to gain independent. As we speak, the Tibetans are already a minority in Tibet, they said the Han population outnumbers Tibetan by 3 to 1. Let's face it, even if the army left, China will still have a firm grasp over Tibet, which is now firmly a part of China.

 

[Jeff Yu]

Read this...
On the other hand, I do feel that the Tibetans have been done a great injustice. I can't but help imagine them feeling betrayed by India, which offered them great support, when it formally accepted China's claim over Tibet.

Well, I just wanted to know how the International community sees the closeness between India and China and the consequent implications for the aspirations of the Tibetans.

And yet I've heard much nationalist talk over the issue of Kashmir. Over half of the territory of Kashmir, Ladahk, is neither Muslim nor Hindu, but Buddhist and ethnically Tibetan. The only reason it's part of India today is because it was annexed first by the imperialistic maharajas of Kashmir and then by the British. It remains occupied by India even today.

Similarly, India occupies another Tibetan-majority, Buddhist-majority part of Tibet, Tawang, which India calls Arunachal Pradesh. It was the birthplace of several Dalai Lamas, and under the control of the Dalai Lama up till 1947, till India annexed it. The Tibetan Government in Exile continues to claim it as part of Tibet.

That's some 142,000 square kilometers of historically Tibetan land and some 2-3 million ethnically Tibetan people occupied by India right now. If you love Tibetans so much, I'm sure you'd have absolutely no problem giving up Arunachel Pradesh and Kashmir and allowing 3 million Tibetans complete independence from India, right?

 

[silver 2039]

I say to hell with Tibet. They're just a negoating chip in the bigger scheme of things.

 

[allhailIndia]

Without going into the debate as to the legitimacy of various INdo-British treaty, those of Tibetan origin, not those who had to leave Tibet proper, don't face the kind of atrocities Tibetans in China did nor systemic degradation and destruction of their culture by the majority.

Leaving that apart, Sikkim has tacitly been recognized as part of India by CHina, presumably in exchange for recognition of Chinese suzeranity over Tibet, but the bones of contention are still Aksai Chin and areas in Arunachal Pradesh, which is being sorted out right now.

 

[Dann]

It's good that they're finally talking.

Us ancient civs gotta stick together, yes?

 

[betazed]

I am not sure what the big deal is with Tibet going to china. Seems to me that the current Tibetans and their children on the long run have a better future under the chinese than as a independent country. And that is notwithstanding that those future children may not call themselves Tibetans anymore. But what's in a name?

 

[Dida]

I have been to Tibet, it didn't look like that the Tibetans were being treated badly.

 

[punkbass2000]

I am not sure what the big deal is with Tibet going to china. Seems to me that the current Tibetans and their children on the long run have a better future under the chinese than as a independent country. And that is notwithstanding that those future children may not call themselves Tibetans anymore. But what's in a name?

I don't know, I think not being allowed to worship your cultural leader is kind of a big deal for a culture.

 

[alex994]

You mean the guy who lived like a King in his Palace while the common people worked day and night farming? I would think that ppl would have common sense when they worship Gods that are represented by a Guy who lives like a King...

 

[allhailIndia]

I think we should be careful about dismissing Tibetan cultural traditions and way of life from a decidedly western point of view....
I would try to explain...but I don't think I can convince some of the people here....

 

[wit>trope]

Was Tibet ever an independent country?

 

[Plexus]

Aye.

Wikipedia is your friend:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet

 

[Jeff Yu]

I think we should be careful about dismissing Tibetan cultural traditions and way of life from a decidedly western point of view....
I would try to explain...but I don't think I can convince some of the people here....

I think we should be careful about enforcing western-style values upon the people of India and simply dismissing thousands of years of cultural tradition. The caste system should never have been abolished, and the western society had no place forcing equality upon those poor people. After all, those people in the lower classes should simply respect societal tradition and know their place at the bottom, right? The people at the top obviously deserve their power, wealth, and priviledges because of the karma in their previous life. I'd try to explain, but I don't think I can convince some of the people either.

 

[silver 2039]

Russia desire is finally close for the 3 powers alliance.
Russia wanted to form a axis of sorts with China and India.
However this was never possible because of Sino-Indian enimity.
Now it seems close.

If it happens it will be the largest pouplation and economic bloc in the world with the power to challange NATO and the West.

 

[Gelion]

Should have been done a long time ago....
Its the only way we dont become an economic colony like lackey like Eastern Europeans.