Inflation and corporations

@ Macsbug:
I've played around with your modified formula a bit, and while it seems to be a godsend for those spam-happy corporate AIs, I myself am making way to much money before the inflation rate starts exceeding 100%.

This whole setup seems all backwards in terms of gameplay and balance. The inflation rate should rise rapidly at first and then start stagnating - just as the player's income :crazyeye: (That's a criticism of Firaxis' choice of implementation, and not your commendable attempt at improving it, just so you know.)

Lars -- how much is 'way too much'? Can you maybe post a save?
 
Lars -- how much is 'way too much'?

A couple of hundred gold per turn with 0% taxation. I'll see if I can't find a save for you when I can get at my civving computer.
 
These are the current BtS inflation rates at all difficulty/speed levels.
Expanded BtS inflation rates:

Code:
		Marathon		Epic			Normal			Quick
Settler		0.16/0.61/1.17/1.85	0.04/0.45/0.98/1.62	0.01/0.41/0.91/1.54	0.04/0.43/0.92/1.52
Chieftain	0.18/0.70/1.34/2.14	0.05/0.55/1.19/1.99	0.01/0.48/1.10/1.86	0.05/0.51/1.10/1.85
Warlord		0.23/0.87/1.72/2.77	0.06/0.64/1.42/2.41	0.01/0.56/1.32/2.29	0.06/0.61/1.34/2.26
Noble		0.24/0.96/1.92/3.11	0.07/0.74/1.66/2.85	0.02/0.65/1.53/2.67	0.06/0.70/1.54/2.63
Prince		0.26/1.06/2.12/3.47	0.07/0.78/1.75/3.01	0.02/0.68/1.64/2.86	0.07/0.73/1.64/2.83
Monarch		0.29/1.15/2.34/3.84	0.08/0.84/1.92/3.33	0.02/0.74/1.79/3.16	0.07/0.79/1.80/3.11
Emperor		0.29/1.15/2.34/3.84	0.08/0.84/1.92/3.33	0.02/0.74/1.79/3.16	0.07/0.79/1.80/3.11
Immortal	0.29/1.15/2.34/3.84	0.08/0.84/1.92/3.33	0.02/0.74/1.79/3.16	0.07/0.79/1.80/3.11
Deity		0.29/1.15/2.34/3.84	0.08/0.84/1.92/3.33	0.02/0.74/1.79/3.16	0.07/0.79/1.80/3.11

Edit: I should add that these are the values for the Vanilla version of the game, not for the mod I posted above. The inflation rates at turn 25%/50%/75%/100% of the total number of turns in the relevent difficulty setting.
 
Inflation rates for the modded version of the formula I posed above:
Code:
		Marathon		Epic			Normal			Quick
Settler		0.02/0.16/0.42/0.79	0.00/0.01/0.33/0.66	0.00/0.09/0.29/0.62	0.00/0.09/0.29/0.61
Chieftain	0.02/0.20/0.51/0.97	0.00/0.14/0.43/0.88	0.00/0.12/0.38/0.80	0.00/0.13/0.38/0.79
Warlord		0.04/0.27/0.72/1.36	0.00/0.18/0.55/1.14	0.00/0.14/0.50/1.06	0.00/0.16/0.51/1.04
Noble		0.04/0.32/0.84/1.58	0.00/0.21/0.68/1.41	0.00/0.18/0.61/1.30	0.00/0.20/0.62/1.28
Prince		0.04/0.36/0.95/1.83	0.00/0.24/0.74/1.52	0.00/0.19/0.67/1.42	0.00/0.21/0.67/1.40
Monarch		0.05/0.41/1.09/2.08	0.00/0.26/0.84/1.73	0.00/0.21/0.76/1.62	0.00/0.24/0.76/1.58
Emperor		0.05/0.41/1.09/2.08	0.00/0.26/0.84/1.73	0.00/0.21/0.76/1.62	0.00/0.24/0.76/1.58
Immortal	0.05/0.41/1.09/2.08	0.00/0.26/0.84/1.73	0.00/0.21/0.76/1.62	0.00/0.24/0.76/1.58
Deity		0.05/0.41/1.09/2.08	0.00/0.26/0.84/1.73	0.00/0.21/0.76/1.62	0.00/0.24/0.76/1.58
 
Woah! Somehow I got it into my head "maximum" inflation rate (the rate by 2050) was the same at all game speeds. Holy cow, those Marathon numbers are nasty! >300% :eek: No wonder people are making a big deal out of it.
 
Both versions show an inflation rate that increases faster and faster as the game turns progress. As inflation was designed to counter the increasing profitability of cities, I think that it should have a similar curve as the curve of the profitability of cities. This increase of profitability of cities slows down in the industrial and modern age and finally grinds to a full stop because the tile improvements don't get any better and no new buildings are developed to improve the profitability of cities. So if inflation were designed to counter the increase in profitability of cities, then it should have the same behaviour in the industrial and modern age.
 
Inflation rates for the modded version of the formula I posed above:
Code:
		Marathon		Epic			Normal			Quick
Settler		0.02/0.16/0.42/0.79	0.00/0.01/0.33/0.66	0.00/0.09/0.29/0.62	0.00/0.09/0.29/0.61
Chieftain	0.02/0.20/0.51/0.97	0.00/0.14/0.43/0.88	0.00/0.12/0.38/0.80	0.00/0.13/0.38/0.79
Warlord		0.04/0.27/0.72/1.36	0.00/0.18/0.55/1.14	0.00/0.14/0.50/1.06	0.00/0.16/0.51/1.04
Noble		0.04/0.32/0.84/1.58	0.00/0.21/0.68/1.41	0.00/0.18/0.61/1.30	0.00/0.20/0.62/1.28
Prince		0.04/0.36/0.95/1.83	0.00/0.24/0.74/1.52	0.00/0.19/0.67/1.42	0.00/0.21/0.67/1.40
Monarch		0.05/0.41/1.09/2.08	0.00/0.26/0.84/1.73	0.00/0.21/0.76/1.62	0.00/0.24/0.76/1.58
Emperor		0.05/0.41/1.09/2.08	0.00/0.26/0.84/1.73	0.00/0.21/0.76/1.62	0.00/0.24/0.76/1.58
Immortal	0.05/0.41/1.09/2.08	0.00/0.26/0.84/1.73	0.00/0.21/0.76/1.62	0.00/0.24/0.76/1.58
Deity		0.05/0.41/1.09/2.08	0.00/0.26/0.84/1.73	0.00/0.21/0.76/1.62	0.00/0.24/0.76/1.58

would it be possible to offset some of these with a GPP style of increasing costs for setting up corporate offices? (200*(already created for that company-1)?

this might prevent corp office spamming.
 
@Macsbug

I wonder why the developers would choose an exponential function as the basis for the inflation cost (which is just a factor to increase maintenance). The wealth of your empire doesn't grow exponentially. Cottages grow slower over time and stop at some point and there are only a very limited number of buildings that can improve gold (market, grocer, bank). Cities are also very limited in size and don't grow forever. At some point, the growth of the economy in civ4 actually slows down when cottages have fully developed, banks, markets and grocers have been constructed and cities reach their maximum size. So why would the balancing factor called inflation have an exponential formula. From a game developers point of view, it doesn't make sense.

As a mathematician, I must say that you're maybe right about their goal to use a Taylor approximation on a more complicated formula. It's probably much quicker to calculate the Taylor series approximation than the original formula.

A Taylor approximation would indeed be much quicker in most computing applications. However, the stated two-term Taylor approximations of the functions do a very poor job of estimating the original formula - I don't know what the designers originally intended for that function, however it is clear that they did NOT intend the function to closely follow any of the exponential functions I posted (by the end of any game the approximation would be off by many orders of magnitude). Hence the reason for my edit in my previous post on the subject.

Both versions show an inflation rate that increases faster and faster as the game turns progress. As inflation was designed to counter the increasing profitability of cities, I think that it should have a similar curve as the curve of the profitability of cities. This increase of profitability of cities slows down in the industrial and modern age and finally grinds to a full stop because the tile improvements don't get any better and no new buildings are developed to improve the profitability of cities. So if inflation were designed to counter the increase in profitability of cities, then it should have the same behaviour in the industrial and modern age.

That sounds reasonable - why not give it a try? I, for one, have no idea what inflation rates would be balanced at what settings at what point in the game.
 
A Taylor approximation would indeed be much quicker in most computing applications. However, the stated two-term Taylor approximations of the functions do a very poor job of estimating the original formula - I don't know what the designers originally intended for that function, however it is clear that they did NOT intend the function to closely follow any of the exponential functions I posted (by the end of any game the approximation would be off by many orders of magnitude). Hence the reason for my edit in my previous post on the subject.

A quadratic function can never approximate an exponential function well. The exponential function will always outgrow the quadratic function after a while, so I'm not surprised that such an approximation would be poor. But I don't know what people at Firaxis know about this.

That sounds reasonable - why not give it a try? I, for one, have no idea what inflation rates would be balanced at what settings at what point in the game.

Phew, creating my own formula for inflation. But I dislike the very notion of the inflation game mechanic. ;)

The inflation game mechanic is there to have some meaningful cost level in the late game. Now that could be achieved in many ways. Before civ4, it was achieved by making some buildings have an upkeep cost. This was removed in civ4 in order to streamline the game, simplify it. Now, I don't mind removing pollution and replacing it with health or removing city rebellions in unhappy cities and replacing them with the new unhappiness system where unhappy citizens don't work. But removing building upkeep and replacing them with the system of city upkeep + inflation. Mwah.

City upkeep is good, it stops (or at least slows) the Rapid Expansion Strategy. It is good that it is hard to maintain a large empire with a primitive civilization. But after some technological developments, it starts to become meaningless. In the real world, modern cities do become more expensive and not because of some game turn number, but because you have to maintain more things. So I would just reintroduce building maintenance for the more modern buildings. That could go from 1 gpt for an observatory to 3 gpt for a factory.

Actually, that is what they did when they introduced corporations. Corporations are actually a type of buildings that requires maintenance. It does more than that as you can spread it to foreign empires and its maintenance is dependent on the number of resources used and it has a special headquarters, but in its basis it is a building that gives you something and requires a certain maintenance cost.

Other ways to increase late game costs:
Make the maintenance for more modern units higher than for ancient units. Knights and macemen and such could cost 2 gold per turn. Musketmen, grenadiers and cavalry 3 gold per turn. Infantry, sam infantry 4 gold per turn. Airplanes and mechanized units 6 gold per turn.
Probably a bit over the top. Yeah, these numbers should be a bit lower, but you get the idea.

I like to decide myself that I invest in something that increases my maintenance. I don't like it when my maintenance increases because I clicked next turn while nothing changed in my empire except the game turn number.

If you really think that it is best to create some abstract multiplier for the costs, then it should be dependent on the level of technological development. The technological development is a more accurate measure to see how profitable your cities are. Not perfect, but better than the turn number.

For instance, lets say that each age has 10 technologies (yes way off, just an example)
Ancient inflation: 0
Classical inflation: 0 + 1 per classical technology
Medieval inflation: 10 + 2 per medieval technology
Renaissance inflation: 30 + 3 per renaissance technology
Industrial inflation: 60 + 3 per industrial technology
Modern inflation: 90 + 1 per modern technology
Future inflation: 100

This is probably also not a perfect curve, but I must say that the profitability of my cities starts to increase greatly during the medieval and renaissance age because of the availability of buildings and the growth of cottages. Because of some superior civics, it continues to steadily grow in the industrial age. There's not a lot of improvement left in the modern age, so that's why inflation shouldn't grow that hard anymore in that age. The future age doesn't add anything anymore.

But I prefer the costs for buildings and units method. That way, you can see what you're paying for and you can decide whether you want that building/unit for that extra upkeep cost.
 
Holy crap I didn't realize that monarch (my level) had the same inflation as deity. :)

Where is this mod you have for the game btw? I'm finding a distinct lack of interest in playing anymore (hence spending tme here) because I can't face playing now, it just feels boring going SP/CS every game and im sick of HRE/Zulu, I wanna try some other civs with corporations without having to end my game by 1900.

The AI is so cool these days, just before I was posting about an experience I had: (this was actually the Dutch game, and this Egyptian is the same one that forced a huge drop in science %)!

Ditto

On my 2nd game I played as Dutch and went for a spacerace victory.
Close to completion I got raped by my pleased ally the Egyptians.

He came with 8 missile cruises which each had 4 missiles in them.
They proceeded to launch 4 nukes at my cities, and ~30 cruise missiles absolutely destroying the tile improvements in my country.
They also send a HUGE [and i mean HUUUGE] stack of transports and amphibiously assaulted one of my nuked cities capturing it.

They also brought subs and attack subs.
Finally, they had 3 carriers full of jet fighters which were in fact not even stationary but the smart AI has decided to put the on Intercept mission [air superiority] such that when I tried to first counterattack most of my jets were lost to the AI in a tit-for-tat air superiority war.

As soon as he lost some jets [which is about 50:50 considering I also had jets too] he would sent reinforcements onto the carriers and so on.

I got pissed and launched 3 ICBMs [yea I was pretty attached to my civ and was upset I got nuked] but all 3 got intercepted by his SDI...


Also you won't know the meaning of pain until you've experienced stealth destroyers. I was behind slightly in military tech and he had them whilst I didnt.

For those of you that don't know, stealth destroyers are completely invisible except to other stealth destroyers :mad: :mad: :crazyeye: :crazyeye:
 
Phew, creating my own formula for inflation. But I dislike the very notion of the inflation game mechanic.
'scuse my ignorance, but if we want late game costs to increase, why not just increase the cost of later techs accordingly?? It would also be reasonable for more advanced (i.e., gunpowder) units to have more unit upkeep costs, and oil units even more still.
Add in, maybe, a city upkeep for age of city, and you have the system we have now, except less hidden costs and less screwing with corporations. (But coming up with all those numbers at this point is beyond me.)
 
'scuse my ignorance, but if we want late game costs to increase, why not just increase the cost of later techs accordingly?? It would also be reasonable for more advanced (i.e., gunpowder) units to have more unit upkeep costs, and oil units even more still.
Add in, maybe, a city upkeep for age of city, and you have the system we have now, except less hidden costs and less screwing with corporations. (But coming up with all those numbers at this point is beyond me.)

The idea is not only to make the technologies more expensive to research, but also to make buildings like banks interesting. They wouldn't be interesting when you're running a 90% research rate during most of the game.

But I agree with your higher upkeep cost for units. I happened to write the same suggestion in the post you quoted. I don't know what you mean with an upkeep for the age of the city. Do you mean how old it is (disagree) or in what age of advancement (ancient- modern) we are (could work)? That last one would be similar to the maintenance of modern buildings that I suggested except that it would be out of your control and would suddenly increase your costs when the age of the game advances.
 
Yea I sort of agree with Roland Joansen. I was so sick and tired of not building any Banks Markets Grocers in vanilla or warlords, or at least have them to be of almost no use.
The reason was that almost the entire game was ran at 80+% science.

The problem is however that the increased costs shouldn't be due to corporations. I think that when I had the 2100:gold: inflation, at least 2/3 was from corporations.
This doesn't inrease the use of commerce buildings but rather reduces the use of corporations.

In any case corporations always require a hefty amount of gold, it just that by the late game they don't justify their costs.

So if the cost of corporations was fixed throughout [the amount can be balanced if need be] the irony is that because of the :gold: cost science would actually be lower.
 
Yea I sort of agree with Roland Joansen. I was so sick and tired of not building any Banks Markets Grocers in vanilla or warlords, or at least have them to be of almost no use.
The reason was that almost the entire game was ran at 80+% science.

The problem is however that the increased costs shouldn't be due to corporations. I think that when I had the 2100:gold: inflation, at least 2/3 was from corporations.
This doesn't inrease the use of commerce buildings but rather reduces the use of corporations.

In any case corporations always require a hefty amount of gold, it just that by the late game they don't justify their costs.

So if the cost of corporations was fixed throughout [the amount can be balanced if need be] the irony is that because of the :gold: cost science would actually be lower.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=234094

Just my small suggestion. Increase the founding of an office costs each time you found a new one like GPP points. 200*(1+Corp Offices for specific corp already founded by you) is a start. This might also prevent the AI from spamming themselves.
 
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=234094

Just my small suggestion. Increase the founding of an office costs each time you found a new one like GPP points. 200*(1+Corp Offices for specific corp already founded by you) is a start. This might also prevent the AI from spamming themselves.

I suspect that the AI is hardcoded to spam corps. So as the game is now, that change would probably cripple the AI even more. However I like your idea. Personally I think that sounds too expensive but using a different scale for different mapsizes etc. would be appropriate.

I think you should make it cost more the further it is from the corp HQ instead.
How about something like:

100(1 + 0.4 * min(0,distance-4) )

where distance is the distance from the HQ to the city you're attempting to spread to.

This is for standard mapsize anyway.

Just an idea...
 
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=234094

Just my small suggestion. Increase the founding of an office costs each time you found a new one like GPP points. 200*(1+Corp Offices for specific corp already founded by you) is a start. This might also prevent the AI from spamming themselves.

:agree:

I suspect that the AI is hardcoded to spam corps.
I know for a fact this this isn't true because the AI doesn't spread corporations lke crazy.
My theory is that the AI doesn't take inflation into account when deciding if a corporation is "whorthwhile" but really it could be anything.
 
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