Info on Next Patch

yea thats true. the whole one unit thing per tile can really screw things up. place ai on small isle then look at the AI never getting anywhere

fow is just a given, players get the same penalty in moving. i've had it happen often where i move a unit only to see the new visibility with barbs or enemies and i realize, well that unit is toast.

but overall though, at its basic level, firaxis made the pathfinding chose defense over open. if only they tried harder to consider the kind of conditions you listed, might just of made the AI that much more smarter
 
I missed the policy thing earlier. It strikes me that I'll probably never get Freedom or Order again unless I'm playing on a huge map. Pity.
 
I really like all the new changes. This is finally an aggressive patch in addressing known issues/exploits.

The melée horse vs city change will now slow human horse based offensives giving the ai more time to counter-attack. It would be nice to get the ai to use horse based strategies more effectively but I imagine that would not be an easy fix. Humans will now have to do a little more strategizing and this is a good thing.

Nerfing the promotion exploits will also create a more level playing field vs the ai. No longer can the human player insta-heal whenever he/she wants or abuse saved promotions for uber terrain bonuses later on when needed. Now you will have to have the forsight as to how you want to mold your army. This creates a long term strategic view and the more decisions forced upon us will only create more "thinking" moments. Do I want this unit to be a rough terrain specialist or open terrain specialist? What are my future plans? Instead of the I'll just wait until I need to make a choice and save it as a safety net.

The SP change is something I personally did not see as a big problem but I'm am still happy for the change. Like the promotion fix this will put the human on more of a level playing field with the ai. We will now HAVE to implament some of the early SP trees into our strategies instead of gaming the system by saving up for our preffered uber trees. Humans will now have to strategize more on their research trees to ensure they get the SP at the proper time.

This is a strategy game right? The more thinking and the more consequances put upon us for those choices the better.
 
All the right keywords have been mentioned. The big ones = Maritime; horse; archers. I can't wait to have a play of CiV RC3.

Civilization V RC3? Is that a mod? The game was released officially months ago you know. If you're talking about the third patch to a production release product, that would make more sense.
 
This is a strategy game right? The more thinking and the more consequances put upon us for those choices the better.
Isn't it ironic that the designers of the game force decision upon us with this new patch. You now have less choices as you need to adopt early policies whether you like it or not.
I say this game has so few choices already, so few pathways. Give me more not less
 
Civilization V RC3? Is that a mod? The game was released officially months ago you know. If you're talking about the third patch to a production release product, that would make more sense.

Yeh it's a mod.
 
Isn't it ironic that the designers of the game force decision upon us with this new patch. You now have less choices as you need to adopt early policies whether you like it or not.
I say this game has so few choices already, so few pathways. Give me more not less
You got choices: you can spawn more cities, or you can spawn even more cities than that.

Oh, wait - that's not really a choice. Sorry, I was being facetious. But you do have a choice: you can spawn lots of tightly packed cities, or lots of not-so-tightly packed cities. Both strategies seem to work.
 
One big change with the SPs will be the early culture huts. Will stink to get one before Classical era.
 
Isn't it ironic that the designers of the game force decision upon us with this new patch. You now have less choices as you need to adopt early policies whether you like it or not.
I say this game has so few choices already, so few pathways. Give me more not less

you took me words out of my mouth... my exacts thought...when someone talks about strategy and praises removing options in one sentence it feels sooo wrong

I still wonder how taking options out of strategy game makes strategy game more strategy... it is more like streamlining game experience and making it some kind of WoW raid (there is always only 1 path to victory which players have to follow and if they find something else we nerf it!).
 
All the right keywords have been mentioned. The big ones = Maritime; horse; archers. I can't wait to have a play of CiV RC3. It looks very promising. No doubt there'll be a new set of issues that'll crop up but we're headed in the right direction I feel.

Oh, and to all you gamers out there that are blatantly gaming this game with 'game-y' strats & tactics, just stop it would you.

Game on!

One big problem that doesn't seem to be addressed is ICS. Is there anything here that suggests the single best strategy will not continue to be to make loads of smallish (4 pop) cities?
 
you took me words out of my mouth... my exacts thought...when someone talks about strategy and praises removing options in one sentence it feels sooo wrong

I still wonder how taking options out of strategy game makes strategy game more strategy... it is more like streamlining game experience and making it some kind of WoW raid (there is always only 1 path to victory which players have to follow and if they find something else we nerf it!).

The same number of real choices are still there but the exploit choice is now subtracted from the equation. What this adds is more weight to your choices. You can't wait for a convienant moment to make a choice when the ai cannot do the same. When one is forced to make a choice it adds gravity to the situation. It adds more weight to an already lean strategy game. You now have to do more planning and have more forthought. Things a strategy game should be making us do.
 
One big problem that doesn't seem to be addressed is ICS. Is there anything here that suggests the single best strategy will not continue to be to make loads of smallish (4 pop) cities?

Let's see what they've done with Maritime. It may do the trick.

On the other hand, there's every reason to believe the SP change will actually encourage a big fat REX+ICS.
 
You can't wait for a convienant moment to make a choice when the ai cannot do the same.

Maybe Firaxis should consider improving the AI so it CAN do some of these things?

I know, I know -- it's a radical notion. Actually adding things to the game, instead of taking out yet more things. I'm sure Firaxis never even considered the possibility.

This game is not "lean" -- it is a flensed carcass with ever fewer scraps of flesh still on the bones.
 
Maybe Firaxis should consider improving the AI so it CAN do some of these things?

I know, I know -- it's a radical notion. Actually adding things to the game, instead of taking out yet more things. I'm sure Firaxis never even considered the possibility.

This game is not "lean" -- it is a flensed carcass with ever fewer scraps of flesh still on the bones.

I agree with you on all accounts (I actually laughed after reading your last comment). The ai is more difficult to address and fix while nerfing or taking out things that should or should not have been there in the first place is the easier and quicker fix. I would rather have your solution but short of that I support the current fixes.

As we have seen with our genre the issue of a weak ai plagues us and is a constant and uphill fight for the devs. It is a problem that is time consuming while also not easily correctable. That being said I am happy for the new changes but I also hope they continue to improve the ai as it still needs a good shot in the arm in using air power and naval units for example. But this patch is a step in the right direction.
 
no, actually the default pathfinding will put a unit on a defensible tile all the time over open terrain. it avoids open terrain when possible at all times

however it will not for example calculate a "detour" where it reaches x,y using the best defensible path, it searches for shortest path with defensible tiles. its not the best, but it's the quickest, which is really important in the early turns for the AI to found a city: every turn counts
As far as the AI is concerned, the open terrain penalty *should* make open terrain literally a no-go for it.
As ohioastronomy correctly points out below, due to the traffic jam problems of 1upt the AI nevertheless is "forced" (by bad code) to move units into the open anyway.
Because this "forciing" is a result of other units already having moved the AI is incapable of planning for this which ultimately leads to the fact that AI units in open terrain typically are easy prey for the human.

Not when there are too many units, and not when terrain is constricting. There is also balancing the fog of war - e.g. not knowing when it is safe or not because of enemy units just outside of range. The too many units bit is important because that is the main equalizer that the AI gets in this series (more units), and the architecture neuters that.

but overall though, at its basic level, firaxis made the pathfinding chose defense over open. if only they tried harder to consider the kind of conditions you listed, might just of made the AI that much more smarter

But with the open terrain penaly the weaknesses of AI pathfinding (together with bad decisions about the sequence in which units move) become even more obvious.

Apart from this an open terrain penalty is across all historical experience.
Battles throughout almost the entire history were fought in open space. Part of the medevial combat doctrines was that the attacker would be at a disadvantage as he would have to expose his troops to enemy archery fire.

The Civ5 combat system with its various sub-systems completely turns early time warfare in its opposite. There isn't any plausibility in the way in which we are forced to use troops.

Worse, the open terrain penalty even punishes ideas like flanking the enemy by making use of higher movement rates in open terrain.

In total, the Civ5 combat system is much more a perversion of real life experiences than Civ4's combat system could ever have been.
By nerfing down the penalty the devs admit to see this problem, but simultenously show to be stubborn enough to avoid to make the necessary changes as long as ever possible.

One could say that the poor state of AI warfare as of release was due to a rushed release. That they are not willing to make basic changes, yet only do some cosmetics, two months later puts them even into a worse light.
 
As much as I have gone on and on about "choices" (and the need to make hard ones), at this stage I would have one less choice than have that choice only being a cheesy or exploited one.
 
As much as I have gone on and on about "choices" (and the need to make hard ones), at this stage I would have one less choice than have that choice only being a cheesy or exploited one.

I agree, it's not the number of choices that make a good strategy game, sometimes too many choices are bad because they lead to unintuitive and cheesy playing styles being the most effective.

I won't comment lschnarch's obsession about open terrain penalty any more.
 
One big problem that doesn't seem to be addressed is ICS. Is there anything here that suggests the single best strategy will not continue to be to make loads of smallish (4 pop) cities?

These changes, taken together, actually encourage ICS by making other strategies less viable :lol:
 
The only ICS-related change that I see is the reduction of the amount of food from maritime CSs.
 
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