Info Thread: Rise of the Shogunate

[Gen. Rommel]

That's not possible in the Civ3 editor. You can only increase food production in water tiles, not resource tiles.

Hmmm, that sucks. I thought this sounded quite feasible. No matter though. I'm sure I can think of another bonus that the sushi-ya shall grant.

I've thought about definitely adding a tea resource as well. On that note, a tea house is an obvious city improvement I was thinking of using. Have you by chance already made a tea house city improvement Ogedei?

I also wanted to ask if you don't mind me using any of the Asian style city improvements you've made so far such as the bath house, etc. They would fit right into this scenario. I figure this is exactly the kind of thing you made them for, correct?

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

I've made a Tea House building a while back. I also have a Printer's Shop, Castle, and Herbalist's Shop.

 

[Gen. Rommel]

Excellent! I'm sure I'll find a use for each and every building you've made. Saves me (and you hehe) alot of work.

Could I hear some opinions about the aged effect LHs I posted. Do they generally look better (since they fit in with the other pictures) or were the original pictures more fitting? I'd like to find this out soon so that I can take advantage of my Animation Shop trial version as much as possible before its up.

 

[ShiroKobbure]

How many civs do you have? I think I will make the leaderheads since I think they can be useful for other people making a Sengoku-jidai.
Shimazu:
Saiga-shu (Arquebuse mercenaries from Kyushu)
Oda:
Teppou-bushi (replaces Teppou-ashigaru)
Chosokabe:
don't know
Imagawa (Tokugawa):
Iga-ninja

more later

 

[Virote_Considon]

I'm staying out of the sushi argument...

And for the scenario name, I'd go with 4. "Shogun- Total War"

 

[ShiroKobbure]

I don't think sushi should be a resource because it is not a resource, just like hamburger isn't a resource.

Resources:
Rice
Meat
Game
Fish
Whale
Iron
Horse

Maybe something like Buddhist temple or Buddhist site to train Sohei
And in Kyoto there could be a resource called Imperial Support. Which could create a unit called Imperial Diplomat. It's attack would be just talking and the units death would mean the soldiers are leaving the army.

 

[Gen. Rommel]

How many civs do you have? I think I will make the leaderheads since I think they can be useful for other people making a Sengoku-jidai.

Hey, that sounds absolutely wonderful! If you could make the leaderheads for the Daimyo, I believe alot of people would truly be greatful (me being one of them ).

Well, to help you out, I'll post all the civs I've got so far and their according daimyo.

Current Civs:

Otomo Clan - Otomo Yoshishige
Mori Clan - Mori Motonari
Hosokawa Clan - Hosokawa Tadaoki
Urakami Clan - Urakami Munekage
Miyoshi Clan - Miyoshi Nagayoshi
Oda Clan - Oda Nobunaga
Imagawa Clan - Imagawa Yoshimoto
Takeda Clan - Takeda Shingen
Hojo Clan - Hojo Ujiyasu
Uesugi Clan - Uesugi Kenshin
Date Clan - Date Masamune
Tokugawa Clan - Tokugawa Ieyasu
Shimazu Clan - Shimazu Yoshihisa
Ryuzoji Clan - Ryuzoji Takanobu
Hongwanji Clan - Hongwanji Kennyo
Matsunaga Clan - Matsunaga Hisahida
Chosokabe Clan - Chosokabe Motochika
Mogami Clan - Mogami Yoshiakira
Satake Clan - Satake Yoshishige
Akita Clan - Akita Sanesue
Nanbu Clan - Nanbu Harumasa
Asakura Clan - Asakura Yoshikage
Omura Clan - Omura Sumitada


Those are all the Daimyo within Japan I have so far (I doubt I'll add anymore, unless of course someone has suggestions for any that I left out)

Civs Still Missing Data:

Southern Hokkaido - Leader still needed
Northern Hokkaido - Leader still needed

These are two civs I definitely wanted to add just so that there is some action in Hokkaido. They both won't play any major roles unless the human player really tries since I've given them some great handicaps such as lack of strat. resources such as iron and saltpeter meaning they won't be building any strong armies soon. They also lack any form of rice since Hokkaido was considered "useless" to this time simply for the reason that rice was not harvestable there. Only later during the Meji Period did a new type of rice change the fate of Hokkaido; with it came an influx of Japanese settlers that displaced the indegeneous Ainu of the region. I also made the island swarming with barbarian huts to keep the two cities on Hokkaido (Hakodate of the southern kingdom and Asahikawa of the northern) from getting too advanced. As soon as one of the Daimyo from Honshu or Kyushu chooses to settle Hokkaido however, their advanced armies should be able to crush the barbarian wave quite easily as well as subjugate the two kingdoms. I'll have to test this out to find an optimal point though.

On the note of the two Hokkaido kingdoms, does anybody have ideas for the leadernames? I can't find any true evidence of a Hokkaido kingdom although I remember reading it somewhere at an earlier date (though I'm not able to find the source again). Should I just make the names up in this case for the sake of playability? I'd rather use historical names but I'm kind of stuck.

Civs Still Pending:

Korea (depends on if we can build them in properly)

Shimazu:
Saiga-shu (Arquebuse mercenaries from Kyushu)
Oda:
Teppou-bushi (replaces Teppou-ashigaru)
Chosokabe:
don't know
Imagawa (Tokugawa):
Iga-ninja

Sound good so far. I do have one revision, however. I believe Oda Nobunage was mostly successful during the majority of his campaigns because of his rifle wielding soldiers, so it seems only obvious to make his unique unit some kind of gunpowder unit. I was thinking an arquebusier unit that arrives earlier than that of the other civs, so that Oda's early campaigns are better represented (as well as attemptable). This would mean I'd have to activate saltpeter earlier but that's no problem as long as the others can't build their gunpowder units as early as the Oda Clan (if that didn't make sense, don't worry because it made sense to me ).

I have some other unique unit ideas after researching a bit, for instance Daimyo Hojo's UU. This one would definitely have to be some kind of advanced ninja because Hojo made this an essential part of his strategy, making him successful on the battlefield against other warlords with considerably larger armies (his ninjas were able to deliver him valuable information, making night raids on his enemies possible, for instance). I'll post some more ideas later for UUs.

 

[ShiroKobbure]

A teppou is an arquebuse. Rifles didnt come to Japan until the 1800s. Oda's uu would be a teppou-bushi or teppou-musha. Both mean the same. It just means more trained warrior with a gun, instead of the lower ranking samurai (ashigaru) with a gun.
Hokkaido wasnt important at the time. It was Ezo, ruled by small Ainu(Ezo) chiefs. There was no daimyo in Ezo.
Okinawa (Ryukyu) would be more important, because it was a single kingdom, and one of the largest trading countries in all the pacific. But neither Okinawa or Hokkaido were big part durring the Sengoku-jidai.

It sounds like a lot of clans, I would maybe limit it to:
Shimazu
Otomo
Chosokabe
Mori
Asai
Saito
Oda
Asakura
Uesugi
Imagawa
Hojo
Takeda
Date

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

Sound good so far. I do have one revision, however. I believe Oda Nobunage was mostly successful during the majority of his campaigns because of his rifle wielding soldiers, so it seems only obvious to make his unique unit some kind of gunpowder unit.

Teppou 鉄砲 IS a gun. It's just the Japanese name.

Maybe the Takeda Clan could have a cavalry UU. Takeda Shingen utilized mounted spearmen for heavy cavalry charges.

 

[ShiroKobbure]

I agree that Takeda should have a cavalry unit.

 

[Gen. Rommel]

A teppou is an arquebuse. Rifles didnt come to Japan until the 1800s. Oda's uu would be a teppou-bushi or teppou-musha. Both mean the same. It just means more trained warrior with a gun, instead of the lower ranking samurai (ashigaru) with a gun.

Oh, I didn't know what teppou means and thought because it replaces the ashigaru, that it would just be some kind of sword or spear wielding unit. Since that's not the case, this unit sounds like the perfect UU for the Oda clan!

But what do you mean rifles didn't arrive in Japan until the 1800s?! Oda was using musket rifles in his wars as early as the 1500s!

Anyways, I was able to find alot of unit grahics so far perfect to use as UU graphics.

Hokkaido wasnt important at the time. It was Ezo, ruled by small Ainu(Ezo) chiefs. There was no daimyo in Ezo.
Okinawa (Ryukyu) would be more important, because it was a single kingdom, and one of the largest trading countries in all the pacific. But neither Okinawa or Hokkaido were big part durring the Sengoku-jidai.

Yeah, I know they weren't important during the Sengoku Period. That's why I think I'll just name the leaders of the two Hokkaido Kingdoms (which I'll now change to the name of Hokkaido Tribe) after famous Ainu chiefs. I'll be sure to keep them really weak so that they don't reach some unhistorical proportion of prosperity. It will only be left in as a place for the daimyo to colonize later on in the game (similar to how Tokugawa gave Hokkaido to the Matsue clan to build up the infrastructure later on).

I'll be leaving out the kingdom of Kyushu altogether since 1) it's not on the map, and 2) it would be too meaningless. Even if it was a trading center of the pacific, it would be hard to achieve this kind of prosperity in civ scale.

It sounds like a lot of clans, I would maybe limit it to:
Shimazu
Otomo
Chosokabe
Mori
Asai
Saito
Oda
Asakura
Uesugi
Imagawa
Hojo
Takeda
Date

The top clans of the time were as follows:

Oda
Tokugawa
Imagawa
Takeda
Hojo
Uesugi
Mori
Date
Mogami

All these ones HAVE to be in the scenario since the simply played too important of a role in Japan's development during the Sengoku

Theses were also important clans but had slightly less influence (still important nonetheless):

Akita
Satake
Shimazu
Otomo
Nanbu
Asakura
Chosokabe
Hosokawa
Ryuzoji
Urakami
Miyoshi
Hosokawa

These are Daimyo that were not really important but are worthy of mention:

Omura (first Daimyo to get baptised; did it for the sake of gaining gunpowder weaponry)
Hongwanji

I'll definitely have ALL of these civs since placing less would mean more room for others to expand, leading to an unbalanced environment, which more importantly doesn't mirror the historical situation at all. I'd definitely prefer to keep all the civs listed so far.

 

[ShiroKobbure]

Rifling wasn't invented until the mid 1800s. And Japan never had muskets.
I would place all the provinces of Japan already on the map. That way it will be balanced.

What about making different sceineros, starting at different points in the Sengoku. You can't have the Tokugawa clan at the start of the war, because Tokugawa Ieyasu was the first Tokugawa.

 

[Quinzy]

Although wiki says otherwise on several pages- the page on the arquebus and the page on ashigaru- I'm not sure what to believe myself...

 

[Gen. Rommel]

Rifling wasn't invented until the mid 1800s. And Japan never had muskets.
I would place all the provinces of Japan already on the map. That way it will be balanced.

What about making different sceineros, starting at different points in the Sengoku. You can't have the Tokugawa clan at the start of the war, because Tokugawa Ieyasu was the first Tokugawa.

It's true that rifling wasn't invented until the 1800s to increase the accuracy of bullets, however, muskets are still refered to as rifles. And the Japanese DID recieve musket making technology from the portuguese at the end of the 1400s, and were able to create their own version (which was a much cruder version of the musket) there after. I might simply not be understanding what you mean.

I was thinking of making multiple versions as you proposed. First, I want to make one resembling the Sengoku mod from the conquests expansion with each civ starting with one city.

I'll also be making one with preplaced territories, so that the Daimyo borders are accurately established. Then I'll make some versions where Oda' expansion is played, Toyotomi's expansion, and Tokugawa's unification of Japan.

I'm also planning further Japan scenarios for the future, to create a sort of bundle campaign that each player can play through, step by step. Not only will this let players learn alot about Japanese history, but they'll also get to see how the borders truly advanced (in comparison to the borders they create in their personal games). All future plans at this point though.

Although wiki says otherwise on several pages- the page on the arquebus and the page on ashigaru- I'm not sure what to believe myself...

In reference to what? On what aspect do you mean? Are you refering to the gunpowder units?

 

[Quinzy]

In reference to the Arquebus being used in the 1550's, and on Ashigaru using the arquebus in battle.

 

[ShiroKobbure]

We received arquebuses from the Portuguese in 1543. I don't think Japan had contact with the west in the 1400s. The only difference I know between an arquebus and a musket is that a musket can shoot about double the distance. But I do not know anything else about the difference in how it works.

 

[Gen. Rommel]

We received arquebuses from the Portuguese in 1543. I don't think Japan had contact with the west in the 1400s. The only difference I know between an arquebus and a musket is that a musket can shoot about double the distance. But I do not know anything else about the difference in how it works.

Okely dokely!

So, does anybody have any ideas for the other unique units?

Oh and what name did you guys want for the scenario?

I'll try to get the map of Japan with the actual borders up either today or tommorow.

 

[ShiroKobbure]

The problem with UUs is you have too many civs. And not that many units. I will help out, but I dont want to make 20+ unique samurai units not to mention 20+ daimyo heads.

 

[Ogedei_the_Mad]

I think the best alternative would be to simply have a smaller core group of playable factions. All the factions would be available, but only the playable factions, representing the more major clans of the time, would have their own UUs.

 

[Gen. Rommel]

As Ogedei said, it's not necassary to give each and every clan its own unique unit. As long as the major civs (Oda, Tokugawa, Imagawa, Takeda, Hojo, Uesugi, Mori, Date) have a truly special UU, the other clans can be lumped into groups that share a common and more general unit as their UU.

About the abundance of civs and the resulting difficulties in creating individual leaderheads for each:

I've got a fixed number of 23 Daimyo which I don't intend to increase further. As it stands, the map seems to be very balanced and historically accurate in terms of the Daimyos' lordships. However, removing one of them at this point, would mean a major upset in power and land distribution. Therefore, reducing the number of Daimyo would bring mean more complications than if I leave it as it is currently.

Also consider the fact that the number of Daimyo in the original Sengoku mod was already at 18, meaning I actually didn't add that many in the first place. If I truly want to create an accurate Sengoku-jidai scenario, I'll definitely need to keep the number of civs as it is.

If this is of course too overwhelming a number to create LHs for, I completely understand. Only consolation I can offer is that some of the Daimyo have really destinct features, such as Date Masamune who wore an eye-patch and the famous moon-crescent samurai helmet. This may mean that creating them will turn out an easier task, in contrast to if this were not the case.

And also consider that once you've made them, no one will ever have to do so again, which will be a relief for many Sengoku-jidai scenario/mod makers.

On a completely different note, I need some major help with the population distribution in Japan during the Sengoku Period. For instance, I'd place my money on Osaka or Kyoto as being the most populated city at the beginning of the Sengoku, but I have no idea how accurate that presumption is. As that is the case, I was wondering if you guys know anything about the demographics of the time or maybe a site where I can find them out (populations for each city would be perfect because the overall Japanese population is kind of useless for what I need). I've been googling like mad for a couple of hours now but can't find anything relevant (all I get is demographics of modern Japan or general background info of the Sengoku; nothing about demographics during the Sengoku). Any help would truly be appreciated.