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Info Thread: Rise of the Shogunate

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Creation & Customization' started by Gen. Rommel, Mar 30, 2007.

  1. ShiroKobbure

    ShiroKobbure Still modding Civ3

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    I have never read a book in English or Japanese about the demographics of each province during the Sengoku. I would use Shogun Total war and base the population from how much the province is developed.

    I think it would be best to have Japan start off with the provinces already made. And making sure that they all have atleast one citizen. I think you could cut the number of clans in half, since having all of them there wouldn't be historically accurate either. I would keep the main clans. And make the lesser daimyo into one unplayable civ. Or limit the lesser daimyo and make them unplayable with no unique features.

    I have really good props (helmet and armour) for Date Masamune, Uesugi Kenshin, Takeda Shingen.
     
  2. Gen. Rommel

    Gen. Rommel Wüstenfuchs

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    Do you know where I can get a hold of the information from the Shogun: Total War booklet? I personally don't own a copy of the game and therefore consequently no game booklet.

    As I mentioned above but may not have clarified enough, I created the provinces already and assigned them to the according clan. The map I used to establish these boundaries is locateable here.

    The problem with amalgamating the lesser clans into one big clan is that they then become more powerful than the Daimyo who are ment to ACTUALLY be powerful. This is something I definitely don't want to risk because I want to see the Date, Oda, Takeda, Hojo, Uesugi, Tokugawa, Mori, and Mogami have the advantages that they also recieved historically and as a result, also warmonger accordingly (due to increased overall might).

    If I did have to limit it, however, what would be the maximum number of clans that you would still make leaderheads for? But please consider, the more clans get removed, the less dynamic the scenario becomes meaning a sense of monotony that may take away from not only the replay value, but also the variability.

    I'm quite excited to see what the Daimyo will look like with your leaderhead making skills! I can't wait to get even a morsile of a sample to drool over. ;)

    By the way, what part of Japan do you come from Shiro (I've been wanting to ask that for a while now) ?
     
  3. Ogedei_the_Mad

    Ogedei_the_Mad Caffeinated Khagan

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    If I recall my history correctly, the most populated and developed regions were more or less central Japan, around the Kansai and Kanto areas. But that was in the early Tokugawa Period. The big cities were Edo, Osaka, and Kyoto although Kyoto experienced a downturn as things shifted towards Edo. I have more detailed sources on Japanee culture and history of the Tokugawa and Sengoku periods, but I left those back in the US (I'm currently in Korea)... :blush:
     
  4. Gen. Rommel

    Gen. Rommel Wüstenfuchs

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    Well, that sucks...no matter though. At least I now know that both Osaka and Kyoto are the two most populated cities. If only I had an exact number though, I could use them as a comparison and measurement for the other cities. Hmmm......how long till you return to the U.S.? :D

    Kimchi and Bulgogi for life! :goodjob:
     
  5. ShiroKobbure

    ShiroKobbure Still modding Civ3

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    I would make about 13~17 heads. The Sengoku-jidai should focus on diplomacy and tactics. Instead of battling many small clans. I would only include the major daimyo and smaller less daimyo, with very weak units. And maybe make them one large clan. That cannot have any diplomatic properties. You should play Shogun total war. It is very fun. And you can get some ideas from it.

    Some maps that can help you:
    Old provinces of Japan, in English
    List of major daimyos
    This should help with where to put gold, temples (a posible resource for yamabushi or sohei) and ports.
     
  6. Ogedei_the_Mad

    Ogedei_the_Mad Caffeinated Khagan

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    I won't be returning to the US until August or September. I'm not sure about exactly when in that time of year...

    Anyway, these are the estimates for populations (but of course, these are 16-17th century estimates):

    Kyoto: approximately 400,000 (in the Tokugawa Period, however, it declines to 200,000)
    Edo: by the 17th century it was around a half million
    Osaka: approximately 350,000 (not as great as Kyoto or Edo, but was a principal commercial center)
     
  7. Gen. Rommel

    Gen. Rommel Wüstenfuchs

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    Thanks, I'll definitely be using those maps Shiro!

    One big favor I need from you Shiro...could you tell me the numbers 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9, and 10 in Japanese but with Romanji spelling. I dislike the sound of Shogun-1, Shogun-2,...Shogun-10 so I thought it would be better to name the number after the Japanese equivalent. Flavoring is what's it's all about in scenarios. :D

    Thanks for the stats Ogedei! They definitely make it easier for me to place the populations now.
     
  8. Virote_Considon

    Virote_Considon The Great Dictator

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    I'm pretty sure that this would be a waste of your time, as you rarely even see these numbers in the game ;)

    Also, if you do want the full 23 civs, have you thought about using some pre-existing LH's? I'm pretty sure you can find quite a few that have been already made that would fit in.
     
  9. ShiroKobbure

    ShiroKobbure Still modding Civ3

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    why do you need Shogun-1 and Shogun-2? Since there should only be one Shogun....?

    Ichi
    Ni
    San
    Shi/Yon
    Go
    Roku
    Shichi/Nana
    Hachi
    Kyuu/Ku
    Juu.

    But I don't think you should have units like Ni-ban Shogun. It sounds silly.
     
  10. Gen. Rommel

    Gen. Rommel Wüstenfuchs

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    Shogun-1 and Shogun-2 refer to the level that the Shoogun is on (that was the RP aspect that they added to the mod). If you remember back, you were able to "level up" your Shogun to make him stronger and give him certain abilities, which I thought was really interesting and will definitely be findable in my scenario as well.

    Here is how I have the names (after googling the numbers in Japanese yesterday, I was able to find them before you posted today):

    Shogun-ichi 1
    Shogun-ni 2
    Shogun-san 3
    Shogun-yon 4
    Shogun-go 5
    Shogun-roku 6
    Shogun-nana 7
    Shogun-hachi 8
    Shogun-kju 9
    Shogun-juu 10

    I could of course drop the number completely so that it says:

    Shogun-ichi
    Shogun-ni
    Shogun-san
    Shogun-yon
    Shogun-go
    Shogun-roku
    Shogun-nana
    Shogun-hachi
    Shogun-kju
    Shogun-juu

    If that still sounds like ass, I'm more than open for alternatives on how to name each differing level. As long as each level's name differs somehow, I'm happy. I just don't want it getting too bland by calling them all just plain Shogun (besides the fact that I can't make ten different units with the same name anyways).

    Such as? Off the top of my head, I can't think of any Daimyo looking leaderheads that have already been made. The existing Meiji and Hirohito heads could be used, however they do destinctly look like themselves (duh!) meaning it may irritate some players. Thoughts?
     
  11. ShiroKobbure

    ShiroKobbure Still modding Civ3

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    It sounds very strange to me, since in Japanese we use Arabic and Chinese numbers so, 将軍七7, looks very odd.
    Well, There shouldn't be a Shogun unit. Since only the Emperor can make someone Shogun and he wouldn't make 20 shoguns in Japan.
    I only played Civ 3's Sengoku scenario once for 10 minutes, I thought it was very very bad.
    If you are trying to find a name for the leader unit. It should be either Daimyo or naming it after the leader name.
    Also I had an idea when I was going to make a Sengoku mod, which would have each daimyo its own unit. I was going to make a general Samurai with a flamboyant helmet, and a mon above the unit. So each clan would have this, daimyo unit, with their own mon, so you can tell which clan it belongs to. But I wouldn't want to make 20+ of these units.
    Also, I don't know how it works in Civ 3, but the daimyo should be on a horse, and should be a king and an army unit. So he can lead more troops in battle, but also his death would make the clan lose.
     
  12. Virote_Considon

    Virote_Considon The Great Dictator

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  13. ShiroKobbure

    ShiroKobbure Still modding Civ3

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  14. Gen. Rommel

    Gen. Rommel Wüstenfuchs

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    You're right about the proper name being Daimyo and not Shogun. I'll definitely fix that, as naming each king unit Shogun would make the scenario really inaccurate. However, I seriously want to keep the leveling up aspect since I felt that was a unique way to add "hero" units for each clan in the game. I can also give each clan's Daimyo the proper name at the beginning so that shouldn't be a problem either.

    One thing I was also considerably bothered by, was the fact that the Daimyo were footman units in the Sengoku mod. No Daimyo would EVER have ran onto the battlefield per foot. And the fact that the Sengoku mod gave the Daimyo two movement points in the first place confused me even more, since this made clear that the creator of the mod knew the Daimyo had faster transportation via horses than his ashigaru. And the dress in which he is presented in the game is also inaccurate, since no Daimyo would have ever arrived on the battlefield in formal clothing. Full body armor was the standard that all of them wore.

    If I had the knowledge and resources to make individual Daimyo units, I would gladly do it, yet my skills within the unit making department are null at the moment. If I were someday to figure it out, this would be on the top of my list. But until then... :(

    One thing I do disagree on is the fact that the clan loses as a whole when the Daimyo dies. The only effects of a defeat (and the resulting seppoku of the Daimyo) were the fall of a certain city or castle. The Daimyo's defeat would never mean the end of the clan, unless the family had no rightful heir to take over. That's why I may remove the king status of the Daimyo unit, to prevent all the cities of the according clan to be wiped from the map. That itself is too unrealistic, because no clan's territories would completely be erradicated by the fall of one Daimyo. And I dislike the idea of all those valuable cities disappearing for naught.

    Yeah, that's unfortunately true. Thanks for finding them nonetheless. The fact is, most of them are wearing too typically Chinese or Korean clothing, meaning using them would be about as accurate as using a hawaiian leaderhead for a Daimyo (though that may actually be more fitting since so many Japanese live on Hawaii ;) ).
     
  15. Gen. Rommel

    Gen. Rommel Wüstenfuchs

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    Can someone post up the Civilopedia.txt file from the original Sengoku mod? Unfortunately my Civ version is in German meaning all the civilopedia entires are in German as well. It would save me months of work if someone could post an English version of the Civilopedia.txt included in the Sengoku mod. I desperately need this file!

    I'll soon have the foundation of the scenario done. After that, I can work on constructing the new tech tree, adding all the new units, and all the other things I have planned. Progress is quite alright for a solo job I'd say. :D
     
  16. Gen. Rommel

    Gen. Rommel Wüstenfuchs

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    Time for a massive update!!!

    After working on this scenario for the last week or so without pause (okay, that’s somewhat over exaggerated), I have been able to make some good progress (at least in my terms of “good” progress).

    So far I have:

    - Added all the cities
    - Established each clans boundaries
    - Pre-placed all the starting units for each clan
    - Created a new fortress and barbarian hut image to fit the Sengoku period
    - Added silver to the resource list and set the according pre-placed starting locations
    - Created all the Leaderhead pics (i.e. advisor, flic, and civpedia pics)
    - Replaced the boring swordsman image for the Ashigaru with a different one
    - Allocated according populations and city improvements to all cities
    - Balanced the resource distribution further to reflect RL resource locations in Japan
    - Started the gruelling task of filling out the civilopedia entries (I still need the English .txt file from the English Sengoku mod from someone)
    - Fixed the great leader and scientist lists to be more accurate (they were really badly put together in the original Sengoku mod)
    - Replaced the Omura clan with the Matsuura clan

    I may be missing some things there, but that’s all that comes to mind right now. Though it’s substantial progress, I still have the two biggest tasks of the whole scenario creation process ahead of me: adding all civilopedia entries and the new tech-tree

    The latter has been posing a problem, due to the mere fact that I don’t know where to start, for example which techs to add, and also how to organize the tech-tree (i.e. which techs should lead to what). Any ideas for techs would truly be appreciated. I really need help from you guys in this department since I’m new to creating tech-trees anyhow, so any tips would be helpful.

    If anyone is interested in helping me with the civilopedia entries, send me a PM or post here and I’ll get back to you on anyway that you can help me (I figure this will be after I’ve established the foundation of the tech-tree since, at that point, I’ll know what entries I’ll even be needing). Anyone that helps will be cited for their efforts in the scenario credits.

    Now for some images!!!


    A shot of the world map which nicely shows all the boundaries and territories. For a comparison to historical boundaries, refer to this site. I believe I was able to get it pretty accurate (that includes city placement as well).


    Here is a shot of the new castle image. I cut the pic from one of Ogedei’s city sets and am really satisfied with the result. Great image by the way Ogedei; hope you don’t mind me using it! How do you make your city sets by the way?


    Here you can see the new barbarian hut I opted for. Just like the castle, I ripped this from one of the city sets made by Niessuh. If this poses a problem Neissuh, I shall gladly remove the image (though it does look quite good, so I hope it’s not a problem ;) ). This pic also shows the “cradle of Japanese civilization”, Osaka, Kyoto, and Kobe.


    Here is the Oda clan’s territory. Nobunaga is launching an early raid on the Asakura. In this shot, the new Ashigaru image is also viewable. Comments?


    Here are diplomacy discussions with the Matsuura clan. A lot of German hehe.


    The legendary Date Masamune guards Sendai from the invading Daimyo. As you can see, the cities still have a relatively low population. This is simply due to the underdevelopment of northern Japan during the Sengoku period. Akita and Nanbu’s cities are even less populated (not much though).


    The last image for now is the foreign advisor screen. Here I’ve shown some examples of the new leaderheads. Can someone tell me how to get the weird invisible boxes around the heads away, because they interrupt the relationship ties (the lines running from one Daimyo to the other).

    That’s it so far…let me here some feedback!!!

    I’ve also officially decided to make a simpler version of this scenario so that Shiro will make the animated leaderheads. That means I will be making a second version with less Daimyo that will also mean simpler game mechanics and faster loading times. Think of this one as the “light” Sengoku-jidai.

    Since Shiro proposed a max of 17 Daimyo, the daimyo clans that will be included in the second version will be as follows:

    1. Oda Clan
    2. Tokugawa Clan
    3. Uesugi Clan
    4. Takeda Clan
    5. Date Clan
    6. Hojo Clan
    7. Mori Clan
    8. Mogami Clan
    9. Chosokabe Clan
    10. Shimazu Clan
    11. Otomo Clan
    12. Asakura Clan
    13. Asai Clan
    14. Nanbu Clan
    15. Akita Clan
    16. Amago Clan
    17. Satake Clan

    I will be making these two versions simultaneously. If you could do the leaderheads for those Daimyo, it would be extremely hardcore Shiro. If you require any pictures for the according Daimyo, I can send you some since I’ve been able to gather quite a few the last five days.
     
  17. odintheking

    odintheking Lighting the way...

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    Looks great!
     
  18. Sword_Of_Geddon

    Sword_Of_Geddon Mysterious Jungle Warrior

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    Are you using the japanese units that came with PTW?
     
  19. odintheking

    odintheking Lighting the way...

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    Just a note, Tokugawa and Meiji could be used for two clans, and I wholeheartedly support the requests for the other 15 leaderheads!
     
  20. Gen. Rommel

    Gen. Rommel Wüstenfuchs

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    Thanks!

    Could you mabe give a bit more specific feedback? Is there anthing you dislike or would want to see changed?

    By the way, do you know how to get rid of that box that's around the leaderheads in the foreign advisor screen?
     

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