Insurgent message to the US.

[ZiP!]

Stupid terrorist propoganda, moving on....

No one said they were possessors of Pure Knowledge either...

 

[Elrohir]

Not in so many words, but it's apparent that many people here agree with what the "insurgents" had to say.

 

[Riesstiu IV]

Stupid terrorist propoganda, moving on....

We aren't talking about Fox News. The Propoganda video I posted has a lot of emotional appeal.

Not in so many words, but it's apparent that many people here agree with what the "insurgents" had to say.

I certainly don't but I could see being pissed of at the US. Maybe an insurgent's family member was killed by our soldiers or had a relative die from cancer related to depleted Uranium. Maybe another insurgent is looking to establish a criminal empire.

The world isn't black and white.

 

[ZiP!]

Not in so many words, but it's apparent that many people here agree with what the "insurgents" had to say.

I'm sure that isn't the case. Look at me, I'm one of those who posted the most on this thread, and my position was anti-Bush, but I'm not at all with the insurgents.
I think part of the problem is that in the US, if you're not 100% for the war then you are unpatriotic insurgent-supporting (I hope you catch my point... I mean, I'm against Bush policy, but that doesn't mean I'm with the insurgents, or ever beleive in all they say. I find they have a coupla valid points though. One of them is, leave them alone.)

 

[Elrohir]

We aren't talking about Fox News. The Propoganda video I posted has a lot of emotional appeal.

I certainly don't but I could see being pissed of at the US. Maybe an insurgent's family member was killed by our soldiers or had a relative die from cancer related to depleted Uranium. Maybe another insurgent is looking to establish a criminal empire.

The world isn't black and white.

So what, becuase a US bomb accidentally killed your family while trying to kill terrorists, you should go out and blow up civilians? That doesn't make sense. If these guys confined their attacks solely to the US military, then maybe I could see their point. But blowing up pizza parlors and hotels with weddings in them does not affect the US, or it's military at all. Doing that is wrong, and that's that.

The world may not always be clearly black and white, but that doesn't mean it's always so.

 

[Bugfatty300]

You don't have to agree with the propoghanda for it to effect you.

If it garners sympathy for their cause then its done its job.

 

[CaptainF]

You don't have to agree with the propoghanda for it to effect you.

If it garners sympathy for their cause then its done its job.

Well, as I said in my first post, I agree with a lot of what is said in that video, even though I realize that the insurgency can be just as twisted, evil and ruthless as the US military.

There can be truth in propaganda, it can be seen from a dispassionate view.

 

[Jawz II]

So what, becuase a US bomb accidentally killed your family while trying to kill terrorists, you should go out and blow up civilians? That doesn't make sense. If these guys confined their attacks solely to the US military, then maybe I could see their point. But blowing up pizza parlors and hotels with weddings in them does not affect the US, or it's military at all. Doing that is wrong, and that's that.

The world may not always be clearly black and white, but that doesn't mean it's always so.

if a bomb accidently blew up my family, then im bein terrorized.

most if not all insurgents are trying to blow up american and english soldiers.
besides, since when do you care about iraqi civilians being blown up? you supported the iraq invasion, im sure.

you do know that alot of civilians were killed in that shock and awe, right?

 

[Xanikk999]

Well, as I said in my first post, I agree with a lot of what is said in that video, even though I realize that the insurgency can be just as twisted, evil and ruthless as the US military.

There can be truth in propaganda, it can be seen from a dispassionate view.

Our military is evil? From what i know most of the troops are young men and women who volunteered to join and are just doing there orders.

And no they arent raping women and shooting children.

 

[Tenochtitlan]

Our military is evil? From what i know most of the troops are young men and women who volunteered to join and are just doing there orders.

And no they arent raping women and shooting children.

I believe he speaks of the establishment.

 

[CaptainF]

Our military is evil? From what i know most of the troops are young men and women who volunteered to join and are just doing there orders.

And no they arent raping women and shooting children.

How do you know?

All I know is that the military we have is the same sort of military that other nations have had. Militaries are by very definition ruthless killing machines. Just obeying orders? I'm sure they are. But what do those orders entail? I certainly don't trust the military to "rebuild" a country, especially when they are designed to destroy everything in their path. I for one think that there could be "Green Card Soldiers" as mentioned in the video. I wouldn't be surprised.

We have committed evil, just as the insurgency has. The situation over there is FUBAR like that I guess.

 

[Riesstiu IV]

So what, becuase a US bomb accidentally killed your family while trying to kill terrorists, you should go out and blow up civilians? That doesn't make sense. If these guys confined their attacks solely to the US military, then maybe I could see their point. But blowing up pizza parlors and hotels with weddings in them does not affect the US, or it's military at all. Doing that is wrong, and that's that.

The world may not always be clearly black and white, but that doesn't mean it's always so.

Well, the insurgency is by no means united under one banner. There are insurgent groups who limit their attacks on US troops and are influenced by nationalism. There are insurgent groups who will avoid attacking US troops and instead just kill civilians. Some insurgent groups seem more like organized crime rings, others are militant religious organizations, but most seem to be motivated by nationalism. Nationalism can be a very powerful tool.

But even if you agree with the invasion, you have to admit the Bush administration has done a terrible job on selling this war to the American and Iraqi people. They just make very simplistic messages that haven't changed. Bush had a lot of support after 9/11. Some polls indicated that 98% of Americans supported Bush, and it was still high during the first days of the war. Look where Bush is now. A 32% approval rating, from Fox News!

Yet, Bush isn't even trying to improve his image. He won't make any convincing speeches or debate. Instead it's always a few one-liners that have little substance. Bush is a terrible orator and more often than not simply makes the situation worse by opening his mouth. If he doesn't try and change this, he's going to be one of the most hated Presidents by the end of his term.

 

[Xanikk999]

How do you know?

All I know is that the military we have is the same sort of military that other nations have had. Militaries are by very definition ruthless killing machines. Just obeying orders? I'm sure they are. But what do those orders entail? I certainly don't trust the military to "rebuild" a country, especially when they are designed to destroy everything in their path. I for one think that there could be "Green Card Soldiers" as mentioned in the video. I wouldn't be surprised.

We have committed evil, just as the insurgency has. The situation over there is FUBAR like that I guess.

I disagree. Militaries of the 21st century have a code of ethics that they must follow that is set out by the U.N.

I have no reason to beileve without any good evidence that the majority of the U.S military is doing things they are not supposed to. Abu Ghraib is not the rule but rather an exception because those troops broke the law.

The violent actions that they must take are mostly justified. If a car comes to a check point and does not stop when commanded, i dont think its unreasonable to open fire on them. Thats just an example. Human beings are still human beings and have emotions and fears like anyone else.

 

[Xanikk999]

I think your missing a few differences beetween our military and the insurgency.

The insurgency is not operating under any rules. They are killing out of cold blood, killing civilians, reporters, and us workers and troops indiscriminatly.

 

[CaptainF]

I disagree. Militaries of the 21st century have a code of ethics that they must follow that is set out by the U.N.

I have no reason to beileve without any good evidence that the majority of the U.S military is doing things they are not supposed to. Abu Ghraib is not the rule but rather an exception because those troops broke the law.

The violent actions that they must take are mostly justified. If a car comes to a check point and does not stop when commanded, i dont think its unreasonable to open fire on them. Thats just an example. Human beings are still human beings and have emotions and fears like anyone else.

Yeah I'm sure that we follow the UN, just like when they didn't want us to go to Iraq in the first place.

I never said that the majority were doing wrong. Thats putting words in my mouth. I merely stated that we are just as evil as the insurgents. I'm sure not all insurgents are civilian killers. I'm sure that there are certain cells that only attack military targets.

Mostly justified? Like invading the country in the first place? Like destroying the livelihoods of ordinary people? Like searching people's homes, taking away relatives for no reason? C'mon now. I know they are just "human beings", but hey that doesn't excuse anything now don't it? The Insurgents are human beings too, who may have had their brother/father/mother shot to death by US Troops, or by collaborators.

Like I said, its FUBAR.

 

[CaptainF]

I think your missing a few differences beetween our military and the insurgency.

The insurgency is not operating under any rules. They are killing out of cold blood, killing civilians, reporters, and us workers and troops indiscriminatly.

Who says we operate under rules? We basically told the UN to shaft itself already. We also oppose the international criminal court, on the grounds that it would have put our troops on trial for war crimes.

If we abided by rules, why would we pull a stunt like that? Do we have something to hide I wonder?

 

[Xanikk999]

Yeah I'm sure that we follow the UN, just like when they didn't want us to go to Iraq in the first place.

I never said that the majority were doing wrong. Thats putting words in my mouth. I merely stated that we are just as evil as the insurgents. I'm sure not all insurgents are civilian killers. I'm sure that there are certain cells that only attack military targets.

Mostly justified? Like invading the country in the first place? Like destroying the livelihoods of ordinary people? Like searching people's homes, taking away relatives for no reason? C'mon now. I know they are just "human beings", but hey that doesn't excuse anything now don't it? The Insurgents are human beings too, who may have had their brother/father/mother shot to death by US Troops, or by collaborators.

Like I said, its FUBAR.

Ok you brought up a lot of fair points.. let me take a stab at this.

1. Im not saying we were justified in invading the country. But the soldiers are just doing there jobs. It wasnt thier decision to invade and sometimes its not even thier decision to go to iraq. People can join the army in different branches and you dont get to choose were you get sent.

2. We arent trying to destroy the livelyhoods of the people. In combat **** happens. We may need to run in a home for cover or chase after a insurgent through a neighborhood. As i said before those soldiers are just doing there jobs, and there jobs arent aimed at destroying their livelyhood specifically. Thats just a indirect effect of thier jobs.

3. I dont see anything wrong with searching peoples homes. However i dont agree that they should be able to apprehend suspected insurgents or civilians without proof of their wrongdoing.

4. And yes if the insurgents have had there parents shot to death they may be blinded by thier own rage and thats understandable. However i doubt that the soldiers killed thier parents unless they did something they werent supposed to do such as drive a car into a checkpoint without stopping or attack troops for some reason or something else. However if the parents are at wrong and they got killed then i cannot sympasize with the insurgents whose parents got killed.

And if there parents got indirectly killed by U.S troops, meaning by enemy fire. Then thats not an excuse either.

 

[Xanikk999]

Who says we operate under rules? We basically told the UN to shaft itself already. We also oppose the international criminal court, on the grounds that it would have put our troops on trial for war crimes.

If we abided by rules, why would we pull a stunt like that? Do we have something to hide I wonder?

We still follow basic rules that armies werent held by hundreds and thousands of years ago.

Soldiers cannot rape people or kill civilians for no reason. They can fire on civilians if they attack them though.

 

[CaptainF]

Ok you brought up a lot of fair points.. let me take a stab at this.

1. Im not saying we were justified in invading the country. But the soldiers are just doing there jobs. It wasnt thier decision to invade and sometimes its not even thier decision to go to iraq. People can join the army in different branches and you dont get to choose were you get sent.

Agreed.

2. We arent trying to destroy the livelyhoods of the people. In combat **** happens. We may need to run in a home for cover or chase after a insurgent through a neighborhood. As i said before those soldiers are just doing there jobs, and there jobs arent aimed at destroying their livelyhood specifically. Thats just a indirect effect of thier jobs.

The military top brass doesn't give a hot sh!t how some poor Iraqi scrapes his money together. Right now they just want to guard their reputation as the worlds best, by crushing an insurgency that has so far been able to sustain the might of the worlds only superpower, and embarrass them in the process."Collateral Damage" doesn't factor into their plan at all.

3. I dont see anything wrong with searching peoples homes. However i dont agree that they should be able to apprehend suspected insurgents or civilians without proof of their wrongdoing.

So they can search people's homes without a reason?

4. And yes if the insurgents have had there parents shot to death they may be blinded by thier own rage and thats understandable. However i doubt that the soldiers killed thier parents unless they did something they werent supposed to do such as drive a car into a checkpoint without stopping or attack troops for some reason or something else. However if the parents are at wrong and they got killed then i cannot sympasize with the insurgents whose parents got killed.

And if there parents got indirectly killed by U.S troops, meaning by enemy fire. Then thats not an excuse either.

Technically, anything is an excuse, because guess what? We are occupying their country. Thats right, THEIR country. They didn't ask for us to come there folks, we just assumed they did. They don't have to like us, since we are imposing our will upon an unwilling recipient. If they want to shoot at us, so be it. Its not like its the 51st state of the union (Not yet at least).

 

[CaptainF]

We still follow basic rules that armies werent held by hundreds and thousands of years ago.

Which we can basically throw out the window, due to our superpower hubris.

Soldiers cannot rape people or kill civilians for no reason. They can fire on civilians if they attack them though.

What reason would ANY soldier have to rape or kill a civilian?