Interesting/Important Debate - COTM without Cultural Conversions (flips)

[samildanach]

Hmmm...I just extorted a city off another civ in COTM 2 and the citizens ( two of them ) were immediately dutch. I seem to remember them not changing nationality in PTW and vanilla.... maybe I'm wrong. I'm pretty sure I've extorted cities before on conquests and the citizens nationalites have not changed.

 

[grs]

Hmmm...I just extorted a city off another civ in COTM 2 and the citizens ( two of them ) were immediately dutch. I seem to remember them not changing nationality in PTW and vanilla.... maybe I'm wrong. I'm pretty sure I've extorted cities before on conquests and the citizens nationalites have not changed.

Hum, never thought that, but same happend in one of my recent SGs. You get foreigners after a flip and your own people after extortion - my logic would expect it to be the other way around.

 

[HellboundHeathcliff]

Anytime a city is 'given away' for any reason (not flipped), Any citizen laborers of the 'giver' are automagically converted to citizen laborers of the receiver (givee?). Any citizen laborers of a 3rd nationality remain unchanged.

 

[Megalou]

Take a look at the screenshot below. The game is in Conquests, Celts, sid, continents, 80% water, less agressive. The Aztec town in the middle was settled in 3400 BC. Not surprisingly, it's on the only available iron in the area. I very much doubt that they would have Iron Working in 3400 BC, not even starting with bronze working.

I have surrounded the town with temples and there is nothing to suggest that it has a temple. You would think that reducing the workable tiles to 1 (ONE) would cause a flip, but it hasn't yet (690 BC) and I'm running out of time. Here is a short table of the situation for the Aztec town:
1475-1350 --- 5 workable tiles (few troops in my towns however).
1300-1200 --- 3 workable tiles
1150-690 ---- 1 workable tile, at least 2 troups in my surrounding towns.
All this time I've had more culture than Aztecs. I've seen no great number of troops fill up the Aztec town. Nothing suggests that there is a temple in the town, or its southeastern tile should have been reclaimed. Cultural conversions can never be satisfying, can they?

So in fact this game could have been a certain loss from the beginning. I could have attacked this town early on, but if you've tried you know how hard it is to have war on sid level during your expansion phase. I'm getting pretty convinced that sid is only for the all but professional players.

 

[smackster]

I have surrounded the town with temples and there is nothing to suggest that it has a temple. You would think that reducing the workable tiles to 1 (ONE) would cause a flip, but it hasn't yet (690 BC) and I'm running out of time.

Did you run one of the flip calculators to see what the flip chance is. I'm not sure how much culture you have or the distance of their capital, but the flip chance seems to be about 3-4% per turn so its not suprising it has not flipped.

Smackster.

 

[scoutsout]

@Megalou: That is the dangdest thing I have seen in a while, and I hope it gets picked up for a Screenshot of the day.

 

[Megalou]

I don't know the distance to the capital either, Smackster. But I could sign an ROP since they have established an embassy with me. Only 3-4%? This sounds like a ridiculous figure to me. Just another example of the favourism towards warmongering in the game. "One of the flip calculators?" I didn't know there was one. Goes to show...

OK, I used DaveMcW's calcuator. I didn't know how to answer "Who built the most culture in the city?" however, since there is no culture in it. If I tick "me" the chance is around 4%, if I tick enemy it's around 2%.

Thanks, Smackster. Edit: thanks Scoutsout.

 

[Offa]

@Megalou. You could try out Anarres' flip calculator but 4% per turn sounds about right. Relying on towns flipping to you is a slow job it seems, and if you manage it on Sid then well done. The AI usually have pretty formidable culture on that level.

I have developed the opinion that Sid level games need a good slice of fortune with the initial map as well as good play. Starting lots of games only to find that they are nearly unplayable due to missing resources, sneak attacks etc is all part of the "fun". What is needed is a pool of "fair" (ie winnable) start maps.

 

[smackster]

OK, I used DaveMcW's calcuator. I didn't know how to answer "Who built the most culture in the city?" however, since there is no culture in it. If I tick "me" the chance is around 4%, if I tick enemy it's around 2%.

The one I used didn't have that option , but it does show chance of flipping after n turns. If we assume 3.64% per turn, then

10 turns = 30.98%
20 turns = 52.36%
30 turns = 67.12%
40 turns = 77.31%
50 turns = 84.34%
etc.

The way Civ RNG works you'll either get it first turn, or after 100+ turns.

 

[Megalou]

Thanks. Offa, it seemed to me that annares' calculator shows "risk" but not "chance" if you know what I mean. I am relying on flip for this one town, but I will be a warmonger with Monarchy and Gaellic swordsman. Things are looking good with Inca ironless and building great library nearby, Aztecs ironless if flip occurs. It's getting a bit off-topic, but I will definitely post the date of flip here if it occurs. Unfortunately (???) I'm off on a two-week vacation to Scotland so this is my last post for a while. See you.

 

[AlanH]

Their capital could be quite close - maybe on the black tile or just under the NE fog. Then teh city under pressure is equidistant from the two capitals. And in that case just think yourself lucky you haven't lost one of your eastern cities in the other direction.

 

[al_thor]

The screenshot is hilarious - that city should flip immediately. Is it just un-founded suspicion on my part to think that the 'un-flipping' has anything at all to do with the fact that there is a critical resource hidden under the city? Of course not, it's been proven that the RNG for flipping has nothing to do with these types of factors, right?
Um...........yeah, right!

 

[Megalou]

Ooops, the capital was visible all along. It's at distance 12, compared to 5.5 for my capital. At least that's one drawback for the AI who know the resource positions in advance.

 

[Megalou]

Here is a start save in case anyone would like to try the map. The position of iron is spoilt, but you wouldn't have made it to it anyway.The absence of iron elsewhere is partly spoilt, though, but not the position of horses since I don't have The Wheel!
Game details: C3C, Celts, sid, standard map, continents, 80% water, random temperature and climate, AI agressiveness is "less agressive", restless barbarians. There is a goodie hut next to the starting position.
Back to packing...

 

[al_thor]

I see that New York is Aztec-green. I also see what looks like Aztec-green Swordsmen hanging around New York.
One must surmise that Aztecs are at war with America.
Question: Do the Aztecs have only that 1 (dubious) source of Iron?
If yes, and I know you signed an ROP, would it not be best for you to destroy all roads (your roads) that connect you with Aztec? He would lose his Iron, which he does not deserve in the first place. It would be a 'peaceful' yet crucial manuver - he can no longer build Swords. Then, keep up with your Culture build, hoping that the AI finally relents and flips the city for you. If I recall, Aztecs are now Agricultural/Militaristic right? You should be able to out-culture him fairly easily.
Once the Iron is yours, you can take revenge on the AI by wiping out the 'cheating' Aztecs with hordes of Gallic Swordsmen.

 

[ainwood]

I don't know the distance to the capital either, Smackster. But I could sign an ROP since they have established an embassy with me. Only 3-4%? This sounds like a ridiculous figure to me. Just another example of the favourism towards warmongering in the game. "One of the flip calculators?" I didn't know there was one. Goes to show...

OK, I used DaveMcW's calcuator. I didn't know how to answer "Who built the most culture in the city?" however, since there is no culture in it. If I tick "me" the chance is around 4%, if I tick enemy it's around 2%.

Thanks, Smackster. Edit: thanks Scoutsout.

I remember having a city like that once - I think it was the original german GOTM. It had only the two tiles that belonged to the AI, yet I think it took about 60 or 70 turns to flip (felt like that, anyway).

 

[Megalou]

I see that New York is Aztec-green. I also see what looks like Aztec-green Swordsmen hanging around New York.
One must surmise that Aztecs are at war with America.
Question: Do the Aztecs have only that 1 (dubious) source of Iron?
If yes, and I know you signed an ROP, would it not be best for you to destroy all roads (your roads) that connect you with Aztec? He would lose his Iron, which he does not deserve in the first place. It would be a 'peaceful' yet crucial manuver - he can no longer build Swords. Then, keep up with your Culture build, hoping that the AI finally relents and flips the city for you. If I recall, Aztecs are now Agricultural/Militaristic right? You should be able to out-culture him fairly easily.
Once the Iron is yours, you can take revenge on the AI by wiping out the 'cheating' Aztecs with hordes of Gallic Swordsmen.

This is an interesting suggestion. Your observations are correct and yes they only have that dubious 1 source. I am also allied with the Aztecs against America. (They made a demand that would have put my finance in red figures, and cause me to lose an improvement, so I allied with them so they could give some money back. I'm using the Aztecs as guards against the Americans in the south so I can expand there and grab my first luxuries next to New York. The Americans are losing, but if I disconnect their iron the Aztecs may use up all their existing swordsmen and put themselves in a weak position. The safest thing to do would be to disconnect the tiles ajacent to the "dubious" town and keep the connection between our capitals. If I try to disconnect our borders, there is no telling how many tiles would have to be pillaged. I will probably try this as long as it doesn't put me in danger from the Americans. It may even cause some civil disorder in Tlatelolco and a temporary increase in flip odds.

Incredibly lucky for me, Ollantaytambo, the Incan city visible in both screenshots have built great library. It's in a perfect position for me to attack with Gaellic Swordsmen. The bad news is that Inca now have iron. Another bad thing is that they will undoubtedly have Feudalism and pikemen any time now.

 

[al_thor]

The safest thing to do would be to disconnect the tiles ajacent to the "dubious" town and keep the connection between our capitals.

Yes - this is a much better option. You would have to keep an eye on his workers though - with the ROP he will just rebuild the roads. You may have to fortify some units/workers on the surrounding tiles to prevent that.
Once he is without Iron and uses up most/all of his Swordsmen, he will be ripe for the picking.
But, if you do get the Iron shortly, perhaps it would be better to attack Inca for the Great Library. You would want this Wonder as soon as possible. Maybe get Aztecs to Ally with you to take some of the heat.

 

[ainwood]

Lets not threadjack this into a strategic discussion please

 

[valamas]

I find that because i am maybe playing at a harder level than i used, i don't get culture flips like a used. I find it highly annoying to lose 1 city out of 3 i just got from a hard and fast war, only to lose my large garrison used to quell the riot. I try to starve the cities first, but usually forget to keep starving them or they flip.

I would like my military units to not vaporise when there is a culture flip.

i vote to leave culture flipping in. Such a change could lead to unknown damages and would tarnish the tradition which is GOTM.

I will try to keep smaller cities and use the garrion per foreign citizen guide, but my strategy in the future will be to be to destroy cities i get and re-settle them.