Interesting Poll

What was the best all-around tank in WW2?

  • T-34/85(USSR)

    Votes: 19 41.3%
  • T-34/76(USSR)

    Votes: 3 6.5%
  • IS-2(USSR)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • M4 Sherman (USA)

    Votes: 2 4.3%
  • M26 Pershing(USA)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • M3 Stuart(USA)

    Votes: 1 2.2%
  • Panzer IV(Germany)

    Votes: 1 2.2%
  • Panzer V Panther(Germany)

    Votes: 2 4.3%
  • Panzer VI Tiger I(Germany)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Panzer VII Tiger II(Germany)

    Votes: 6 13.0%
  • Churchill Tank(UK)

    Votes: 3 6.5%
  • M4 Sherman Firefly(UK)

    Votes: 1 2.2%
  • Type 95 Ha-go(Japan)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • 7TP(Poland)

    Votes: 4 8.7%
  • Ram Tank(Canada)

    Votes: 4 8.7%

  • Total voters
    46
While I figured that was the answer, I was wondering if I've got what the millimeter refers to right in my head: That extra millimeter increases geometrically as you go up higher right? I.E. there's more difference in mass between a 75 and a 76 mm shell and a 27 and a 28 mm shell?
 
No, 1mm of diameter doesn't correlate to anything but one of millimeter diameter. Factors such as barrel length and propellant size are far more important. Numerous guns with the same diameter were fielded - often by the same army - with greatly varying performance on based barrel length, shell design, and the like.

For example, the Germans started the war with the short-barreled 75mm L24 gun in early PzKpfw IVs in a strictly infantry support role. Mid-war, the PzKpfw IV was upgunned to a 75mm L43 and L48 to better take on T-34s, KV-1s, and Shermans. Finally, the Panther mounted a 75mm L70. Each gun represented an increase in velocity, and therefore armor penetration. None of the three could use ammunition meant for the others; they were totally independent weapon systems.
 
No, 1mm of diameter doesn't correlate to anything but one of millimeter diameter.
Well yeah, but if it's of diameter, the area of the shell has to increase geometrically, because of er...geometrics.

Crap, I realize my last post was missing the key word "mass" in that sentence.
 
While I figured that was the answer, I was wondering if I've got what the millimeter refers to right in my head: That extra millimeter increases geometrically as you go up higher right? I.E. there's more difference in mass between a 75 and a 76 mm shell and a 27 and a 28 mm shell?

No, the increase in mass should be the same between 75 and 76 mm as between 27 and 28mm all other things held constant, if there is no change in geometry and density of the round then by mass per volume the increase will be the same. Though I don't expect the shell shape or propellant load to be constant between wildly differently sized shell groups.
 
Well yeah, but if it's of diameter, the area of the shell has to increase geometrically, because of er...geometrics.

Crap, I realize my last post was missing the key word "mass" in that sentence.

Yes, if you take a cylinder of metal and increase its diameter its mass will increase. However in this case it really is irrelevent and depending on the taper of the new shell, it may weigh more or less. It is about the design of the gun and cartridge. As noted above, the German equivalent to the 76mm that the Shermans used, was a 75mm gun and they had far better 75s for penetrating armour.

Also note that widening the shell will similarily decrease its penetration power (all else being equal) the main advantage of the larger guns (say, 75mm over 47mm) was it allowed for higher velocities, not just due to mass, but also larger propellant charges. But eventually the benefit declines as the barrell needs to be longer and the forces on the gun are ever greater to achieve that velocity. It seems that, at that time, the sweet spot for tanks was the 75mm range.
 
No, the increase in mass should be the same between 75 and 76 mm as between 27 and 28mm all other things held constant, if there is no change in geometry and density of the round then by mass per volume the increase will be the same. Though I don't expect the shell shape or propellant load to be constant between wildly differently sized shell groups.

He is right about the increase. Mass is volume x density, assuming density is equal, only volume matters. Volume is area x length, assuming length is constant, mass is simply a function of area.

Area of a circle is pi x r squared, so each increase in r increase area by a greater amount (a circle with a radius of 2 is more than twice the are of circle radius 1)

Area of a circle with a 47mm diameter is 1734 sq mm, 48mm is 1809 sq mm, an increase of 75 sq mm.
Area of a circle with a 75mm diameter is 4416 sq mm, 76mm is 4534 sq mm, an increase of 118 sq mm.

That said, it is pretty irrelevant to this case. And actually works against it as 47-48 is a 4.3% increase in area while 75-76 is 2.6% (and as mass is purely a function of area in this case the case holds true for mass). So, while greater in absolute amounts, it iis less of a increase relative to the prior size.
 
Thanks, you guys, for explaining the 75 mm vs. 76 mm guns issue; I've been wondering that for quite a long time!:goodjob:
 
Well yeah, but if it's of diameter, the area of the shell has to increase geometrically, because of er...geometrics.

Crap, I realize my last post was missing the key word "mass" in that sentence.

Yes, if you take a cylinder of metal and increase its diameter its mass will increase. However in this case it really is irrelevent and depending on the taper of the new shell, it may weigh more or less. It is about the design of the gun and cartridge. As noted above, the German equivalent to the 76mm that the Shermans used, was a 75mm gun and they had far better 75s for penetrating armour.

Also note that widening the shell will similarily decrease its penetration power (all else being equal) the main advantage of the larger guns (say, 75mm over 47mm) was it allowed for higher velocities, not just due to mass, but also larger propellant charges. But eventually the benefit declines as the barrell needs to be longer and the forces on the gun are ever greater to achieve that velocity. It seems that, at that time, the sweet spot for tanks was the 75mm range.

What say1988 says is correct. The diameter of a round is only one factor in calculating its mass, and mass is only one factor in determining its total energy, which is only one factor in determining its penetrative power.

Using the Germans' collection of 75s as a reference again:

The older KwK 37 L/24 of early, short-barrelled PzKpfw IV fired a projectile (armor piercing - AP) that weighed 6.8kg at 385 meters/second.

The KwK 40 L/48 of the later, long-barrelled PzKpfw IV fired a projectile that weighed 6.8kg as well, but a longer gun barrel and more powerful propellant charge meant that same mass was moving at 740 m/s. Additionally, it had a more advanced round (armor piercing, composite rigid in US parlance, or APCR) that weighed only 4.1kg, but that traveled at 990 m/s.

The KwK 42 L/70 of the Panther fired an AP round that weighed 7.2kg that moved at at 925 m/s and a 4.75 kg APCR round that moved at 1120 m/s.

The upshot of all this is that, despite being of similar dimensions, the three guns (and five rounds) had differing levels of performance.

Armor penetration at 500m:
  • KwK 37 L/24 - 38mm
  • KwK 40 L/48 - 96mm
  • >>APCR - 108mm
  • KwK 42 L/70 - 124mm
  • >>APCR - 174mm
Additionally, different materials and designs improved or impeded a round's and, therefore, a guns performance. Intuitively, one would expect the hardest, sharpest round to be the most effective, but harder shells tended to shatter upon impact. Sharper shells were indeed more effective against vertical armor plate, but as sloped armor became the norm, it was found that they would ricochet more easily off the front of tanks like the Panther or the T-34. Blunter shells, on the other hand, would dig their corners into sloped armor and thus be less likely to bounce off.

And this speaks only to kinetic energy rounds. High Explosive (HE) rounds for use against soft targets and High Explosive Anti-Tank (HEAT) rounds again vary from gun to gun even with the same barrel diamenter. For instance, while the 76mm Sherman was markedly more effective versus armor, the lower velocity of the M3 gun on the 75mm Shermans, with its smaller propellant charge, allowed it to be packed 1.5 LB of explosives into its projectile to the 0.9 LB of the M1 76mm gun despite the extra 1mm of diameter of the larger round. This was a major factor in the US Army refusing to deploy 76mm Shermans despite the troops clamoring for a gun that could stand them in better stead against the Tiger or the Panther.
 
just to chime in just a bit , the 17pdr was a 76.2mm weapon as already mentioned , but its variants were labelled 77mm , so that wrong ammunititon wouldn't be delivered to units . ı tend to believe "all" 106mm weapons are in fact 105 , but there is a need to differentiate between recoilless rifles and tank cannons . Maybe the 107 Mortar rounds are similarly mis-named ...
 
maybe something in defence of Tiger II ? The reputation of late war Panzers seem to be result of their prolonged use in defence . Where they would be waiting for Allied tanks to come to them , waiting in ambush in carefully chosen and -given time- prepared positions , with superb optics tied to powerful guns that were likely to out-range return fire matched to a thick frontal armour that would stop that return fire anyhow . This is kind of the stuff that makes it possible for a single Tiger to stop an entire tank division , as it happened in Normandy where the British lost some 25 tanks before destroying it . It's such carnage which makes the headlines when one or three Tigers travel across a French village wrecking a column of troops with some 53 (?) knocked-out vehicles ; it's almost immaterial that on the day a Sherman Firefly finally killed Wittman . ( As far as ı get it from some Osprey title ... ) It was small groups of Panzers scattered in the Bocage , protected by small amounts of own infantry that kept the millions of Allied troops for months . As soon as the Allies found terrain to move their tanks that lock was broken , until they ran out of supplies . There was no holding Russian Operational Art anyhow . Meaning Panzers won in the exchange ratio , but the Allies were winning the war .

when the positions were reversed with Panzers in the Strategic attack , even the famously uncapable Shermans could exact a toll ; Steven Zaloga in some Osprey title , examines select engagements in the Battle of the Bulge where Shermans had almost a 3 to 1 advantage in kills over Panthers . Even the massive losses of the said battle can be used to explain why there would be no hope of holding the Allies in 1945 . Had more tanks been available for the Germans , even the Tiger II could have done its bit ; there are a few tales of the havoc it brought on to T-34/85s . In locations feature of the terrain allowed it to control the area ...

as to Panther and Tiger having "no influence" in modern times , ı believe it's possible to argue otherwise . T-54 ( which could have made it to the WW2) was designed with minimum cross-section since it was real hard to cope with 88 fire and its 100 mm was almost solely intented to outrange the said . Americans tied their hopes to HEAT rounds with the doctrinal changes forced on by the German "animals" , since carrying guns powerful enough to deal with the post -war Soviet threat would give you M-103s , not very popular with anybody . And it's quite something to read the M-47 would have some 120 mm max armour , compared to 200 on the '54s . ( Even if the reference book ı checked has 150 for the Russian type . ) The British practice post WW2 has been going the Tiger way , huge gun , incredible armour and almost stationary when it comes to agility ; Centurion doesn't count as it came out as a British Panther . The French apparently were to base their tank line on Panther but for the American -free- military aid of M-47s . And the Germans had lots of experience in Panthers that went into Leopards , though apparently I is weaker armour-wise . At least in terms of thickness .
 
All of your examples are of responses to the Panther and Tiger. I woudn't even begin to argue that the US, the UK, the USSR or France didn't respond to German tank development. No one, however, used any design elements from the Panther or the Tiger. France did begin to develop some vehicles influenced by the Panther, but quickly abandoned it.
 
okay . But why would the victors would want to use elements from German tanks if that implied re-tooling the factories ? Never minding the 75 / 70 that went to French tanks -OK only AMX-13 . There has even been a very unsupportable claim on some modelling site the British original of Merkava was not built to test , simply because the it was proposed to use the said AMX-13 turret in coordination with similar American designs . Israelis , before they got famous , were quite suckers for German systems , they wanted a Panther factory in the 1950s ı believe .
 
just wondering...
If the IS-3 was in the poll, would anyone be voting for it? I forgot to put it in.
 
just wondering...
If the IS-3 was in the poll, would anyone be voting for it? I forgot to put it in.

Can't really call it a WW2 tank - AFAIK only about 25-30 were finished by the time the war ended and they probably saw no fighting (certainly not against the Germans, possibly against the Japanese). And if you're going to include the tanks from the immediate post-war period, you start looking at things like the Centurion, which was a superior tank (arguably the best in the world at the time).

And even then, to call it the "best all round tank", nope. The IS-3 was very strong in certain aspects, but had serious weaknesses as well. The limitations of the low chassis and flat turret - poor vertical axis rotation of the gun, limited ammunition capacity, lack of crew space severely impacting on their performance, particularly the loader etc. - have to be taken into account. Not saying it was a bad vehicle by any stretch of the imagination: on the contrary, just look at the responses it generated in the West with the development of machines like the Conqueror (specifically designed to take out the IS-3 with one shot before the Russians even knew it was there), but to call it the best all round tank would be, IMO, incorrect.
 
Can't really call it a WW2 tank - AFAIK only about 25-30 were finished by the time the war ended and they probably saw no fighting (certainly not against the Germans, possibly against the Japanese). And if you're going to include the tanks from the immediate post-war period, you start looking at things like the Centurion, which was a superior tank (arguably the best in the world at the time).

And even then, to call it the "best all round tank", nope. The IS-3 was very strong in certain aspects, but had serious weaknesses as well. The limitations of the low chassis and flat turret - poor vertical axis rotation of the gun, limited ammunition capacity, lack of crew space severely impacting on their performance, particularly the loader etc. - have to be taken into account. Not saying it was a bad vehicle by any stretch of the imagination: on the contrary, just look at the responses it generated in the West with the development of machines like the Conqueror (specifically designed to take out the IS-3 with one shot before the Russians even knew it was there), but to call it the best all round tank would be, IMO, incorrect.

All right then, thanks.
 
I picked the one that had "Canada" slapped on the end... :p
 
So how many war freaks do we have here?
 
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