Internal Affairs

[Whomp]

We really need to move the save since we've had it for 4 days. Sweet are you able to play it? If I don't see a post in 2 hours I'll play it.

 

[Sweetacshon]

No, I was in bed... the previous posts were made at around midnight. The thing about making an army is that:
1. We'll have no hope for the Collosus
2. Our economy will crash while we have our army so far away
3. We don't really have any hope of keeping any of their cities, unless we can hit them hard enough... ie the capital, or they have since settled closer to us
4. We make an enemy
5. Assuming they have met others, our name will be poisoned by their propaganda (at least until we can convince other teams we are trustworthy)
6. We don't actually have any idea of their military capabilities or city layouts

 

[killercane]

What is the Leader's culture graph from 2000 bc until now? We can look and see if they have an academy and when they built a library. We can also do an intensive analysis to see how many troops and what kind they have now. I cant open multiplayer saves right now (getting a python error for some reason).

 

[Conroe]

That would take until about 1 AD to get up there. I would hope that Leader is picking up some worker techs and wonder building, but if they get to maces before our axes arrive we are in trouble!

They only need Machinery in order to open up their Macemen and UU. If they are really teching as hard as we think they are, then I see no reason to believe they won't have both by 1AD.

They sent us a message last week assuring us they have no plans of attacking. Did we reply to that message? If we did not, then our silence could be viewed by them as our intent to attack them. That would possibly explain why they are pushing research so hard.

 

[Whomp]

The Leader has monarchy so I'm not sure they teched in that direction. They just converted to hereditary rule within the last couple of turns.

We need to have a plan on how we should proceed with them. We can either extend our current peace plan and research with them or go it alone. We are up two visible techs on them and they have poly to monarchy.

 

[Conroe]

The Leader has monarchy so I'm not sure they teched in that direction. They just converted to hereditary rule within the last couple of turns.

HR will give them a lot of breathing room under the happiness cap. This does not bode well for us.

We need to have a plan on how we should proceed with them.

I think we need a plan period. They have a huge tech lead on us (and probably everyone else, as well). We are currently researching Machinery, from what I can tell. The reason we take this path is to get crossbows to go to war with them. If there is another civ on the other side of them who will join us, this is probably a good choice.

The other thing to note is that we are NOT using our traits. We need to start banging out some cottages for our financial trait. We also need to hire a couple of scientists to start using our philosophical trait. It would really help us to use a GS to lightbulb Philosophy. But that means foregoing Machinery to pick up Code of Laws.

We also need to get some Workers down to TC. I saw where we chopped a Library. Excellent! How about an Obelisk for that border expansion? Has that been done, yet? Our new isthmus city will need a WorkBoat to work its fish. This should probably be built in Balderdash or Hamburger. And then what about the Colossus? Do we go for it?

 

[Kickbooti]

A plan is in order. It does sound like the warmongering path is closed to us right now (insert contrary argument here). If that is the case, since at this point we can't outreasearch the Dear Leader then we had better do as Conroe recomends and build a great core/infastructure and lean heavily on our traits.

The only addition I would make is definately go for the Colossus, and also pop out some more boats. Lets FIND someone. Surely the Leader's lead is as worrisome to others as it is to us.

I am sure the Great Sirian put The Leader in the middle of the spoke to make sure EVERYONE has the joy of destroying them

 

[killercane]

Well I'm not certain we should go the attack route to be sure. However, they are going to kill us in the early ADs if we dont make some serious plans. Their technological lead will not diminish. They are going to have cats and maces. I would rather fight Dave on our terms rather than his. A successful war would be to destroy the cottages they have built, not necessarily take cities. Dave's style of play is to build lots of workers and lots of cottages; this is a farmers gambit that takes a while to get going. The best time to attack if we so choose is now.

Our other option is to go the technological route and find friends to combat the Evil Empire. I propose:

1. No Colossus build. We have 3 coastal tiles in the capital and the nice food/production center of Hamburger would we wasted (only 5 coastal tiles there). Either libraries or markets would give a better ROI. If we want to build it, build it in fish city as a pure science city.

2. Library and academy in the capital. A library should be done asap in the cap to get two scientists up and running. Use scientist for the academy.

3. Tech path- we need monarchy to grow a bit, and construction for cats. Philosophy wont do us any good unless we can get to it first (we dont have a religion yet) and found a religion to use pacifism. Maybe we can extend peace if we go this route and promise machinery to the Leader in exchange for CS or something of that nature.

4. Finding friends is of the utmost importance. I would really like to find Aloha or Innoviea as they would be good allies and know well of the craftiness of the sly Leader.

 

[killercane]

I think our tech situation is dire. We will pop a Great Merchant at 250 BC, I think we should use him on Civil Service. We have several techs to get to in the meantime however to lightbulb it. Can we chop the library at Ye Olde Trickle and hire those scientists?

Oh and I would like to request current screenshots of our tech tree and the culture of the Leader/everyone else if that is possible.

Off topic, Im getting a Python error when I load vanilla civ4; I can only load up the HOF mod (which plays normally). This leads to an inability to look at the save. Any suggestions from the Peanut gallery?

And we all know Whomp has thick skin, the sun beating down on that dome of his makes it pretty leathery up there.

 

[Conroe]

I think our tech situation is dire. We will pop a Great Merchant at 250 BC, I think we should use him on Civil Service. We have several techs to get to in the meantime however to lightbulb it.

I think dire may be an understatement ...

Personally, I've never considered the idea using an early Great Merchant to lightbulb a tech. I've always preferred the cash infusion of a trade mission. However, I think Killercane's idea of lightbulbing CS may be what saves us in this game!

I second his request of a tech tree screenshot. Until then, I'm thinking we need to pickup Currency and Code of Laws before the GM will offer us CS. Might be only CoL. Do we have Math, yet?

Can we chop the library at Ye Olde Trickle and hire those scientists?

With the pre-math chop penalty, it may be better to the Library rather than chop it. I'm not really sure. A updated cityview screenshot of TC would also be helpful.

 

[Butterball]

... And we all know Whomp has thick skin, the sun beating down on that dome of his makes it pretty leathery up there.

Agreed!!!
BB

 

[Conroe]

for posting the save, Whomp! I've had a look at it and here are my comments:

Using our Great Merchant

Killercane posted a suggestion to use our Great Merchant to lightbulb Civil Service. Personally, I like this idea. Unfortunately, I seem to be the only one. As no one else has posted any comments. We will have the GM in 10 turns, so we need to decide what to do with him. If we want to lightbulb CS, we need to get a couple of techs under our belt first. But, as in everything , we have a couple of options on how to get there.

Mathematics -> Currency -> Code of Laws = 44 turns​

This is the longest path. The advantages, though, are 50% more shields when chopping and an extra trade route along the way.

Meditation->Priesthood->Monarchy->Code of Laws = 35 turns​

This is the closer path. The disadvantage is that we really have no use for the religous techs at this time. The advantage to it is we pick up Heriditary Rule along the way, relieving pressure on our happiness cap. Alternatively, we could do a trade with Epsilon, giving them Sailing & Archery in exchange for Polytheism & Priesthood (a straight up 228 beaker deal) and shave 6 turns off of the above. I don't really like the idea of giving them more techs, though.

We can also say the dickens with all of the above. Use the GM on a lucrative trade mission, while mapping out Epsilon's territory. In the meantime, research Drama for the culture slider and Music for the free Great Artist. Once we have the cash and the slider, we whip an army and go see about razing one Oracle.

So, team! What's it gonna be?


Forge in Hamburger

Whomp noted that it would take 2 population to whip the forge in Hamburger. The city has pigs and wheat and a granary. Whip it last turn! The city should be back to size 4 in 5 turns and be at size 5 in 10 turns (I'm rounding here).

But then what does the city build next? More troops, another Galley, or maybe the Colossus? I'm guessing maybe 15 turns nets us the big copper statue.

Colossus? Yay or nay?


Next City Choices

We all know about the hill city at the base of the isthmus. It will be our second line of defense should Epsilon attack us. It will also net us incense which we currently cannot use. I think we will eventually need this city. But, I'm going to propose a couple more:

After Balderdash gets done with the Workboat, we need to whip a Settler. If we want to go the war route, send the Settler to food city. If we want the peaceful route, send the Settler to the junk city.

 

[Whomp]

That sounds well planned out. If we go this path don't we need to know soon so we can switch research?

 

[pindicator]

I like researching Math -> Currency -> Caste as those techs do a lot more for us than the religious techs. If we want speed, though, we should look into trading with Epsilon for their religious techs.

A third possibility you didn't mention is settling the GM, probably in Balderdash or whichever other town is the most food challenged (or vice versa, the town with the highest food surplus). The +6gpt is pretty significant early on and the +food can help any city.

Let's stay aggressive in our settling: for that reason I like the food city, but weren't there some lucrative cities out west?

 

[Kickbooti]

I think poping the GM for tech is a good idea. The problem with the trade mission is that we don't have any idea where to send him for the best return on our investment. We could explore with him, or wait until we know more about the world, but the tech advance would be nice.

While adding the GM to a city is a respectable idea, I think the tech boost would be more beneficial.

I can't remember if we have gold or not, but if we don't I say settle the 'junk' city for the silver. Plus, having horses sooner (even if we need to research horseback riding) would be a good thing if the Leader turns hostile. Though I am not oppossed to the 'growth' city at all.

I also think that the Colossus is worth it. We have some respectable coastal towns. Let's get commerce.

 

[Whomp]

Maybe Tubby can confirm but I don't think distance makes a difference in pbems. He sent a GM through my far away city on pitboss and it yielded the same as it would've if he planted it next to his neighbor.

 

[Tubby Rower]

no Great Merchants seem to give the same amount. Maybe there is a max and I hit that amount quickly. But even small towns close to me were giving the same as Whomp's super-commerce city on the other side of the globe.

EDIT:: one way to test it is to move the Great Merchant and use up movement points. then give him queued orders to conduct trade missions in different cities. But we likely won't see many foriegn cities this early in the game.

 

[Kickbooti]

Hmm. If we don't need to have a bead on a big, exotic, distant city to get paaaayD (I've been hanging around teenagers) then I have to rethink.

For the money, we would need a right of passage and probably a peace deal with the Leader. I don't think that they would let our cash cow come wandering into their pasture otherwise.

The money would let us upgrade quickly and give us a more reasonable chance to do some military damage, but the necessary peace agreement takes away the opportunity.

I guess I still lean toward popping the GM for research. I think we are 'stuck' in a peaceful mode for awhile. I think the research would benefit that more than the money.

My .02 (which is what you'll get if you don't send the GM on a trade mission...)

 

[Conroe]

For the money, we would need a right of passage and probably a peace deal with the Leader.

Just a point of clarification, for future reference. A Great Merchant does NOT need open borders in order to enter another civ's borders.

 

[Kickbooti]

Just a point of clarification, for future reference. A Great Merchant does NOT need open borders in order to enter another civ's borders.

You are correct Conroe. The point which I did not make clear, was that despite our ABILITY to move through the Leader's borders, if they see Mr. Money-Bags heading into their territory and we don't have a RoP or a peace deal they would be crazy NOT to kill him off. After all, what better use would we have for the money than upgrading our military to put a hurting on them?

So my concnern was not de jure ability to move through their borders but de facto.